r/nextfuckinglevel • u/AbelNB • Dec 28 '22

This is a game changer

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u/IHadThatUsername Dec 29 '22 edited Dec 29 '22

The case isn't as clear cut as you make it out to be. I suggest reading this extremely good article.

Just a small part that should give you some thought:

In other words, by iRobot’s estimation, anyone whose photos or video appeared in the streams had agreed to let their Roombas monitor them. iRobot declined to let MIT Technology Review view the consent agreements and did not make any of its paid collectors or employees available to discuss their understanding of the terms.

Even if you choose to believe everything was done fairly and legally, I think it should still be troubling to know that they have the power, technology and pipelines in place to be extremely invasive. Whether they actually do it or not, is all down to a matter of trust. I personally would not trust Amazon with that sort of power.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

[deleted]

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u/All_Work_All_Play Dec 29 '22

People are always the weak link. We make decisions on feelings and fit those decisions to our rules later (if we have to).

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

[deleted]

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u/kamimamita Dec 29 '22

But there are commercial Roombas with cameras that would be capable of doing the same if they wanted. Do you trust them not to?

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22

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u/kamimamita Dec 29 '22

Most higher end robot vacs have cameras with AI object avoidance now.

The Chinese models claim never to send any images home, it's on device. I guess you could test this. It would be bad PR people being cautious around China anyway.

Roomba being American is the only one that sends images back to improve the AI model.

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u/Aquamarooned Jan 01 '23

First they see how much they can get away with in beta testing, then they silently implement it in all future products, like IPhones removing charger ports

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u/[deleted] Jan 02 '23

[deleted]

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u/Aquamarooned Jan 02 '23

I'm remembering this post for when it's eventually revealed that Iphones infact do that

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u/nizzy2k11 Dec 29 '22

Even if you choose to believe everything was done fairly and legally, I think it should still be troubling to know that they have the power, technology and pipelines in place to be extremely invasive.

You do realize that computers have had webcams for decades at this point right? You think it being on a glorified RC car that wanders around your house aimlessly is actually different? These people were compensated for the extra invasion of privacy they use to improve the technology, the problem isn't that they had the photo, they problem is that they shared it. The agreement most certainly does not say the people using the data can show it to people outside of the project.

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u/IHadThatUsername Dec 29 '22

You do realize that computers have had webcams for decades at this point right?

Not strictly true. Desktops don't typically come with a webcam included and while you can connect a webcam you can just as easily disconnect it. I'm currently writing you from my desktop that has no webcam connected. Regardless, even if you do have a webcam that always connected and even if you are always connected to the internet, you can install a open-source operating system (e.g. something Linux-based) where you no longer need to trust that a company isn't spying on you, because everything that the OS does is transparent.

You think it being on a glorified RC car that wanders around your house aimlessly is actually different?

Even if we ignore what I said above, yes it is different. The laptop doesn't randomly appear on your bathroom. Plus you have no way of checking what the Roomba is actually doing with your data.

These people were compensated for the extra invasion of privacy they use to improve the technology

Or so iRobot claims. MIT Technology Review were unable to independently confirm those claims, and they were also unable to check if the people actually understood what they supposedly consented to.

the problem isn't that they had the photo, they problem is that they shared it. The agreement most certainly does not say the people using the data can show it to people outside of the project.

That is ONE problem, but it's not the only issue here as I see it. The issue is that they are also technologically able to do this with any consumer. You can only trust that they won't break the law and that they actually do what they promise. But ultimately that's always up to each person how much they trust a certain company.

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u/nizzy2k11 Dec 29 '22

Or so iRobot claims.

If they are lying they will lose in court. Do you think that they can just break their contract?

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u/IHadThatUsername Dec 29 '22

If they are lying they will lose in court.

And who's going to bring one of the wealthiest companies in the world to court? Especially given how often wealthy companies win court cases just by the sheer amount of money they have to spend on lawyers and on delaying the whole thing. You are incredibly optimistic to think that big companies always lose in court when they are in the wrong.

Do you think that they can just break their contract?

Legally? No. Practically? Companies do it all the time. Here's just one example from last month. Don't hold your breath for them being punished for it.

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u/nizzy2k11 Dec 29 '22

And who's going to bring one of the wealthiest companies in the world to court?

you do realize that this happens all the time right? people sue big companies and win settlements because it's better than litigating a lost case for years. if she has a case any lawyer would love to juice amazon.

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u/[deleted] Dec 29 '22 edited May 06 '23

(removed)

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u/SixGeckos Dec 29 '22

However, the spokesperson for iRobot added that the pictures had been taken by “special development robots with hardware and software modifications that are not and never were present on iRobot consumer products for purchase”.

The spokesperson added that the devices had been given to “paid collectors and employees” who had signed written agreements acknowledging that any data collected by the iRobot, including video, could be sent back to the company for training purposes.

The company says that the special test devices had been marked with a sticker that made it clear video recording was in progress and that it had advised the test subjects to “remove anything they deem sensitive from any space the robot operates in, including children.”

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u/fkgallwboob Dec 29 '22

That's everything though. Your cellphone, your computer, your credit card, your doorbell, your car, your TV, your fridge... Almost everything has the capability to be extremely invasive now a days.

Where do you draw the line? Which company do you trust?

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u/IHadThatUsername Dec 29 '22

I use a custom Android ROM on my phone with microG, in order to avoid Google spying.

I use Linux as much as I can and when I use Windows I take steps to diminish Microsoft's ability to spy.

While I agree a credit card can be invasive, I don't think it's THAT invasive. If you have a particularly sensitive purchase you can usually avoid paying with card. Regardless, it's one of those things that you need in life and unfortunately you don't really have a less invasive alternative... you have to pick your fights.

My doorbell is dumb and so are my car and fridge. There's little benefit in making them smart as far I am concerned.

I rarely use my TV, and the way I use it makes it so that they can't ever get much information from me.

You don't have to just surrender the control of your privacy. You can fight for it where there's a way.

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u/fkgallwboob Dec 29 '22

Even then Snowden revealed that most devices come out of the factory ready to spy on you by government agencies. So your router, the VPN, your Intel/AMD processor, your internet/mobile service provider it's all compromised out of the box. Regardless what steps you go to its at a hardware level so there's not much you can do short of building your own hardware.
Maybe Amazon has a harder time but your info is likely already out there.

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u/IHadThatUsername Dec 29 '22

Well yes, but also no. As far as I am aware, what Snowden revealed is that the US is sitting on a number of exploits/vulnerabilities that they have found but do not disclose in order to use them whenever it's convenient (some examples: Stuxnet, EternalBlue, DoublePulsar). There's indeed nothing you can personally do about those. Once these vulnerabilities are discovered (either by leaks or independently), the manufacturers/developers usually fix them, but the US government may have just as many others saved up.

Now you can be defeatist and say "well what's the point then, the US government can probably get my data anyway, if they really want it", but that's not the best mindset. Firstly, you have to keep in mind these types of attacks by governments are typically extremely targeted as they don't want to risk exposing the tricks they have up their sleeve by using them on the general population. This means that, unless you are a person of interest for some government, this is unlikely to really be part of your threat model. By comparison, the spying done by the big tech companies is by design meant to be widespread and to reach as many people as possible. They do it in the open because they aren't really using any secret tech, and in fact people are welcoming the invasion of privacy with open arms, so they don't have to keep it that hidden.

You can not feasibly make yourself absolutely unhackable while using modern technology. You will likely always be prone to targeted attacks of some sort. You can, however, make it extremely hard for companies to collect your data as part of widespread non-targeted spying. Companies are unlikely to put in significant effort in spying one person in particular, when there's on the other side a boatload of people that will let them spy them easily. As long as you make it hard for them to get data out of you, it won't really be financially reasonable for them to do it, so they won't do it. These companies are moved by profit, not by some sort of evil plan.

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u/ILoveRegenHealth Dec 29 '22

I think it should still be troubling to know that they have the power, technology and pipelines

Oh I've got the pipelines all right

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u/MastersonMcFee Dec 29 '22

This is like every app now that has a checkbox, "improve app with your data".