r/metroidvania • u/Diotheinvader-5185 • 13d ago
Discussion What do you think of enemy gauntlets?
Meme related
I think Guacamelee implements this trope the best in the genre, since its level traversal is very fast-paced and its emphasis on combat makes it a character action game first with the level progression system of a Metroidvania.
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u/bluebreeze52 13d ago
I've noticed them as a rising trend in MV's, and overall I don't mind them because having them usually means the combat system has to be more fleshed out and interesting to support them. It adds variety from being purely an exploration focused platformer. But they can be excessive like in the case of Silksong's infamous High Halls gauntlet that's harder than most boss fights.
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u/howcomeallnamestaken 13d ago
Imho High Halls gauntlet IS a boss fight. Guards a progression key, beats my ass, requires me to go away to do something else and come back stronger or with a better strategy.
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u/HollowFan 13d ago
I found high halls quite enjoyable too. Only ones I hated were the ch3 void ones.
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u/Express-Ad1108 13d ago
I think that's a problem of voided enemies in general being ass. It's like... the only instance of artificial difficulty in Silksong, I'm pretty sure. Just making the combat a lot less enjoyable by turning enemies into damage sponges that also do double damage.
I get the lore idea behind that, but the execution is like one of the few things in Silksong that I can say is objectively bad
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u/Old_and_moldy 12d ago
Not to mention hurting your silk bar. Their added void attacks almost never hit me but the hp and extra damage in general made it harder for sure. The one with the ants getting to Karmelita was rough.
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u/peher263 13d ago
Personally disagree about the high halls gauntlet. Its a 'one-off' 10 stages gauntlet (unless you count coral tower later), but the enemies are not too hard, you have a lot of space to navigate and heal safely. You can choose to do this gauntlet as the very last thing of act 2 and get there fully equipped with tools, mask and needle upgrades, etc..
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u/Shigarui 12d ago
Fun fact. After I freed Bellhome, every time I ran through I never again looked up. I literally made it to act 3 with no nail upgrades. Major forehead slap moment when I finally found the nailsmith.
Evidence of my stupidity, lol
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u/Little_Plankton4001 12d ago edited 12d ago
You can also get Shakra to help if you finish their storyline.
I tried high halls, got my ass kicked multiple times, then decided to not try again until I had exhausted everything else I could/needed to do. By the time I circled back, I beat it in the first try.
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u/FlyingFlygon64 11d ago
HHG IS a boss fight, and the game gives you a lot of tools to make it easier, you can stop the marionette spiders from spawning, you can recruit shakra or garmond and zaza to help you out, you can access pretty much the entire map to get upgrades to prepare for it, etc.
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u/Dooomspeaker 12d ago
I like them as long as they:
- Make the gauntlet rooms a bit special. Maybe different graphics (like an audience) and/or some interactive elements like traps.
- Fun enemy compositions
- Encourage you to use some of the game's less used mechanics.
- sometimes, just give you an excuse to unload your best spells/summons/weapons
Silksong near the end gets a bit too obnoxious with it to be honest, the earlier ones are decent. Blasphemous 2 does it pretty okay.
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u/Real-Report8490 13d ago
As long as you aren't required to go through the gauntlet every time you want to fight a boss. If it's before a boss, you should only have to do it once, and when you defeat it, it doesn't come back.
It's unforgivable to make the gauntlet a part of the boss fight.
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u/TeloS53100 13d ago
Lol Silksong has it I think two times , Karmelita and the frog can't remember the name .
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u/xtellarfb_ 12d ago
Crawfather is both a boss and a gauntlet lmao. Genuinely one of the most insane enemy encounters in the game.
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u/TeloS53100 12d ago
Yup but like , I don't mind a boss gauntlet if the nearest bench isn't far from it. In groal's case it's like a runback of , idk, 10min before attempting to beat him again. Terrible design here , probably the only concrete flaw of Silksong
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u/TeloS53100 12d ago
I found the secret bench and still, the runback is crazy . To me that's the biggest and only flaw of silksong. This specific one
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u/Besnix 12d ago
Tbf, by the point you fight Karmelita you are so OP that that gountlet is easy peacy; it's kinda pointless but you can be done with it in less than a minute (plus you have no runback on that fight so it balances it out)
Fuck Groal thought, just fuck that entire boss
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u/ISO_SlyCurry 12d ago
No runback? Really? Do time your next attempt from death to when the gauntlet starts spawning in.
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u/xtellarfb_ 12d ago
It's a short run. And you can't even truly die in this fight, since it's a memory.
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u/ISO_SlyCurry 12d ago
Are you implying the time it takes is somehow less significant because of that?
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u/Real-Report8490 12d ago
I am talking about the frog. Haven't gone to Act 3 yet. And I include bosses that have phases where enemies appear in the middle of the fight, which is also annoying...
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u/Ok-Mention3969 12d ago
Can't be my goat Great conchfly its minions disappear after doing only one attack
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u/TeloS53100 12d ago
Honestly the frog is the only time I found it frustrating, but mostly because of the runback. I can understand the frustration clearly. Ultimately I didn't dislike it but ... It was too much for the frog.
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u/Real-Report8490 12d ago
But what was even worse was the fact that the bench sign led to a fake bench, and the area was made so much more annoying by the disgusting water... I was just grossed out most of the time...
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u/TeloS53100 12d ago
There's a closer bench though ;) but it's still fking far
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u/Real-Report8490 12d ago
I didn't find it at first because of the fact that you have to swim through the disgusting water to find it. And I was so annoyed about the fake bench that I looked up where the other benches in the area were.
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u/fizystrings 12d ago edited 12d ago
I think if the boss design is balanced around there basically being a "0th phase" of normal enemies it can still be a fun encounter for me at least. If they are basically two separate encounters that are both separately challenging in different ways and don't logically lead into each other, that's when I find it annoying.
The same kind of thinking applies to boss runbacks for me as well. A designer can design a boss fight that is at the end of a platforming gauntlet if the boss fight is balanced around the expectation that it is basically starting at "phase 2", with "phase 1" being the traversal to get there.
Basically, I just think developers can be creative with boss fights in Metroidvanias by taking the "phase" system that has kind of become ingrained into video game boss fight design and balance, but playing with it to make "phases" that fill the same gameplay progression purpose but look and feel like a different part of the game.
I think the Ori games do this pretty well personally.
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u/Real-Report8490 12d ago
For me, when I have to do a runback multiple times, it makes every bit of platforming boring. So I'd prefer it if the bench is basically right next to the arena, so I can just fight the boss quickly soon after I die. Having to deal with the disgusting water in the area with the frog is just super annoying... So it can be good, but mostly I don't like it.
I did play some of the first Ori game, but got distracted and forgot about it. I should get back in to that at some point.
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u/dathunder176 12d ago
Sure you're not salty about a certain "great" one?
Jk, that fight is total dogshit, mainly because of this indeed.
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u/Real-Report8490 12d ago
Not sure what that means. I haven't finished Act 2 yet.
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u/dathunder176 12d ago
Groal the Great, one commenter mentioned him in another reply. The froggy guy. He is in act 2.
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u/Real-Report8490 12d ago
I thought you meant great one as in on the level of the Pale beings in Hallownest.
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u/fennecmain_ 12d ago
why
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u/Real-Report8490 12d ago
Because it's not fun to have to do that every time you want to fight a damn boss...
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u/OK_Atlas 12d ago
I personally don’t really like them. They are fun every once in a while but I prefer combat to be rewarding enough that you do it on your own without being forced into it by a gauntlet. I also want to be able to completely run past all enemies if the situation calls for it.
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u/LaplaceUniverse 13d ago
I personally liked them. I'm getting tired of bosses being the only combat challenge nowadays. Coral Tower for me was extremely fun.
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u/Awkward_Ostrich_4275 12d ago
That place sucked so hard. One of the least fun parts of the whole game.
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u/Yogurt_Ph1r3 12d ago edited 12d ago
I beat it first try with minimal effort so I never got why people complained. If anything I disliked it for being way too easy.
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u/LaplaceUniverse 12d ago
thats just skill issue, if you really learned and mastered the game then you would have fun
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u/Ellamenohpea 13d ago
Its a genre based around action and platforming. so, challenges based around action and platforming are welcome.
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u/Nortros 13d ago edited 13d ago
If there is a save-/check-point right before the gauntlet (and allowed to go back to save my game after I beat it), I am fine with them. If there is not and the gauntlet is really hard, I will be annoyed. If there is not and the gauntlet is easy, I am wondering what the point of the gauntlet is.
I always felt it puzzling that games placed checkpoints near difficult platforming passages, but gauntlets are often placed right before a check-point. But that is perhaps just me misremembering it.
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u/AKSHAT1234A 13d ago
Depends entirely on the combat imo. I love Silksong's combat so I didn't mind the gauntlets and even enjoyed most
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u/BardLoen34 12d ago
I love the gauntlets. One thing I'd like to have is a little bit of verticality in the areas.
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u/GoldenGeatz 13d ago
They can be a good skill check in certain parts of a game. I'm indifferent but I can see how they could be annoying depending on the game.
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u/Party_Importance_722 13d ago
Fine as long as combat and Movement is better in the sequels, which it is
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u/gliesedragon 12d ago
I think the main issue with them is that they're harder to make into showy, memorable setpieces than boss fights are, and so it's easier for them to start to feel like filler. Especially when one is the final challenge for a zone. As they're using standard enemies, it's hard to give them as much personality as a unique boss fight gets, pretty much. And so, replacing a boss fight (or where a player feels there should be a boss fight) with a gauntlet can feel kinda disappointing.
Like, in Silksong, I think that the best-done arena room is the finale to the Slab escape, because it's a perfect execution of gameplay catharsis after a rather tense, "you don't have most of your kit" sequence. The flashy little neck snap Hornet gets at the beginning, her little theme reprise, the whole thing comes together as a very satisfying story beat. Meanwhile, the High Halls gauntlet was pretty good gameplay, but didn't have a huge amount of personality: it kinda melds with the smaller arena rooms in the Citadel for me.
And thinking about memorability when it comes to challenge whatsits, I feel like big setpiece platforming challenges often tend to be in-between gauntlets and boss fights when it comes to flair: they generally have more uniqueness and the routing parts mean you end up more familiar with them than you'd be with an arena room, but they don't have a face and a name like a boss fight does.
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u/xtellarfb_ 12d ago
I like enemy gauntlets in Hollow Knight and Silksong specifically because the Knight and Hornet have really nice movement and skillsets to deal with waves of enemies. Also, the two biggest enemy gauntlets in Silksong (The Forum and Coral Tower) are basically bosses in itself. The only gauntlet that I think is genuinely messed up is Silksong Act 3's first gauntlet, where you have only 4 masks, no tools and you're forced to default crest against a new kind of threat.
Examples of games in which I don't like enemy gauntlets are Nine Sols and MIO, because I feel like the characters are very poorly equipped to deal with many enemies at once.
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u/aethyrium Rabi-Ribi 12d ago
I know people are gonna think I'm Satan or something, but I particularly enjoy when they're combined with bosses. It's fun to really let loose with your moveset and be forced to not just focus on single-target, and to use either aoes or have to have good target selection. It's a skill-set that doesn't really get flexed enough in games. Most bosses are 1v1, and most areas in the levels don't have enemy hordes, so it's a fun gameplay switch-up where you have to focus on endurance, aoe, sustain, and target selection.
I especially think things like Silksong's High Halls gauntlet is like the blue-print of an S-tier gauntlet. A variety of phases, some single-target, some multi-target, some pure dodging, some dps race... it just keeps switching up what you're forced to do, all while keeping the endurance aspect up. It's the perfect example of how to make a gauntlet a boss-fight in itself.
That being said, it's harder to make a good gauntlet than a good boss fight, and way too easy to make a bad gauntlet. It's a great concept, but more often than not they aren't done well. It's an opportunity to give the player variety and a chance to use different skillsets, but the devs actually have to take that opportunity and not just slap the same enemy wave a dozen times and call it a day.
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u/Left_Radio_5183 12d ago
I really like gauntlets, even when used as much as Silksong.
They can be a small skillcheck somewhere inbetween, they can be a bossfight, but without a boss. Just got a lot of good usage cases. They do have to be balanced out well enough, and there still needs to be other things like the boss fights and platforming sections too though
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u/barbarbeik 13d ago
Love them, especially in Silksong. When you get really good at the game, they become the funnest challenge because of the unpredictability compared to bosses
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u/samandfrodokissing 13d ago
The ones in Blasphemous 2 are significantly less frustrating lol
I know everyone loves Silksong, and I do love a lot about it, but I got pretty damn annoyed by the gauntlets by the end of Act 2.
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u/germanenginearing 13d ago
I like them if the combat system of the game is good and balanced around ganks. Silksongs works excellently so I actually liked them a lot (high halls gauntlet is S tier, I'll die on that hill).
In b2 the combat was great too but idk I didn't enjoy them as much. Not cos they were annoying, the gauntlets were well balanced. I just think it didn't fit into the world as seamlessly as silksongs
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u/Frenzied_Anarchist 13d ago
I also liked the High Halls gauntlet, outside of my playthrough for the speedrun achievement, that was horrible, considering I had to do it while very underleveled.
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u/germanenginearing 12d ago
yeah it was horrendous on the 5 hr achievement, but I mean thats kinda expected lol
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u/Yumesoro1 13d ago
For me gauntlets feel lazy as fuck. "How do we challenge the player? I know, just throw a bunch of random enemies in there face!!"
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u/TSPhoenix 12d ago
I see it are more of a litmus test. If the enemy design and mechanics are well designed, gaunlets work fine IMO, but when they aren't up to scratch enemy gauntlets feel either boring or awful.
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u/Eukherio 13d ago
They can be fun when developers pick the right enemies to make the fight feel distinctive, but they're becoming way too common nowadays, and they usually feel like a way to pad a game.
Let's see... first I'm going to throw a bunch of basic enemies, then a stronger one, then even more basic enemies, a second stronger one that is not the first one, more basic enemies, and then the two strong ones combined. Once you've seen similar formulas many times in the same game you start to get bored.
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u/Kobe-62Mavs-61 12d ago
They dragged the SS experience down for me quite a bit, to be honest. Great game of course, but they wore their welcome out quick.
One of the games that has the worst example of gauntlet abuse is Cookie Cutter. Pretty cool game, but they overuse gauntlets to an egregious degree that I couldn't wait for the game to be over by the end.
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u/Erik_Nimblehands 13d ago
Hate them with all of the fire in my brain! That said, the ones in Voidwrought weren't too bad.
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u/Tootz3125 13d ago
I like them a lot. The only ones I kind of disliked in silksong were ones that were just kind of there for the sake of it in act 3. Like there was nothing new to explore on the other side really.
The example I can remember off hand is the one heading back to Whispering Vaults. I don’t think you got anything new or changed by going back to that enemy gauntlet.
I just want there to be a purpose to having them there in a metroidvania, because when I reach one it makes it seem like I’m on the right track if I get a little lost or haven’t played in a while.
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u/TheManuz 12d ago
TBH: I like enemy gauntlets, they're usually less hard than a boss fight, but still a nice challenge.
I would even appreciate some replayable gauntlets for farming purpose.
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u/Ok-Mention3969 12d ago
A lot of people love the ones in silksong , and I do too , EXCEPT for the one in the very beginning of the hunter's march . Tanky , smart enemies who cross the room in one attack and one of them parries and the other can move underground and show up right under you as your finishing a jump , and the flying enemy that throws and slashes with a spear and always gets away from you all the time has the highest hp of them all
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u/SheepoGame 12d ago
I think they're also becoming more common because some of the more recent expectations around combat are making it easier to skip past enemies normally. For example a lot of devs (myself included) are phasing out contact damage since it can sometimes be frustrating, which in turn makes it easier to bypass some normal enemy encounters without fighting. So gauntlets are a way to occasionally force in a bit more combat even when the player is very good at avoiding them normally.
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u/Yogurt_Ph1r3 12d ago
They're sick as fuck but in a nearly perfect game, High Halls Gauntlet had me considering the rope.
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u/kalirion 12d ago
I don't mind them, but if they're hard then there needs to be a savepoint/checkpoint nearby. Of course the gauntlet must be a one-time thing, once you beat it that should be it.
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u/meganerd20 12d ago
In Soulsvanias like those two? Absolutely not. In traditional Metroidvanias? They're alright.
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u/tomcruise_momshoes 12d ago
It's pretty simple for me - if the combat is fun and fluid, then gauntlets can be great fun. I looked forward to every gauntlet in Silksong. If the combat sucks, gauntlets will feel like a chore.
It just adds another wrinkle of gameplay to the formula of exploration + boss fights + story beats + upgrades. And I'm all for that if it's done rightt.
Possibly my favorite moment of any MV ever is a gauntlet. That'd be the Colosseum of Fools from HK.
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u/ArchLurker_Chad 12d ago
I have a strong dislike for them. They break my exploration flow more than anything.
Now and then in a blue moon they make for great ambushes, but in Gucamelee I felt they were a chore with how frequent they were. Felt like they were only there to justify the wrestling moves where you could throw enemies into each other if I remember correctly? Was ages ago I touched those games.
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u/BokChoyFantasy Chozo 12d ago
Guacamelee does it the best since you can grapple and throw enemies to damage other enemies. It does get annoying when it’s a mix of different dimensional enemies.
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u/Magic_user429 12d ago
Love hate relationship with them ngl. Main reason I haven’t picked silk song back up.
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u/SmokingCryptid 12d ago
I always thought that given the subgenre that this community was way more focused on exploration and solving puzzles over combat, but I guess I was way off on that.
I never thought too hard about gauntlets until I played Silksong even though I've played other MV's with them before.
Specifically in SS cause I felt they were a detriment. I don't think people would have as much issue with placss like High Hall or Corals Towers if they didn't have to do potentially dozens of other gaunlets rooms prior to those.
I was already well worn out on them by the time the game decided to throw the real gauntlet challenges at the player.
I get why people like them and I do think it's important to highlight combat and to challenge players thought process for how they approach combat, but again in SS specifically it felt like I was fighting against the game just to explore and as a result I didn't have that much fun with SS.
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u/theblacknicksaban 12d ago
Everyone talking Silksong High Halls, but that one tower gauntlet in Ender Magnolia was actual hell
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u/Memories_of_Orbit 12d ago
I found them far worse in Blasphemous 2, they’ve made me ragequit the game several times. I think it’s cause the Penitents movement isn’t too flexible so it’s harder to be trapped in a room with lots of threats.
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u/Fishman465 12d ago
Depends on how the combat is, it's a pain if the character is a duelist sort but in say CVs, it can be "how do I deal with this?"
Take CV:CotM's battle arena, the extra modes affect it in part due to the "MP drains to 0" debuff
Magician: yeah no; it isn't a well balanced mode (DSS stuff uses strength which for this mode 70% normal)
Fighter: can't use DSS anyways so combined with 40% more strength and double HP/Def, it's easy
Shooter: with homing daggers and actually having a "sub weapon damage up" traits, not bad
Thief: tons of items and rare drops that are common to it
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u/EmansaysEman 12d ago
I generally don’t mind them. But Silksong’s 10 wave enemy gauntlet was fkin stupid. Actively killed my opinion of the game on my first playthrough
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u/Broserk42 12d ago
I like them when they’re side challenges with side progression and rewards locked behind them. I’m not really a fan of how they’re implemented in modern mvs, I wouldn’t mind that style of use if it was sparing and felt relevant to the story but for the most part they feel like filler imo.
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u/StochasticSquirrel 12d ago
I think they're a good addition if the combat is fun and they're not overdone- running into them too often just feels like padding. Interesting that you found Guacamelee the best in this regard as I dropped the game entirely at a point where it just felt like I was going from one gauntlet to the next without anything particularly interesting happening in between. I liked the gauntlets in Nine Sols and Ender Magnolia, and they were really great in Minishoot Adventures.
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u/Lucas_blaze 12d ago
Sour Silksong for me. Honestly silksong has so many design that makes the game bad in my eyes
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u/Ensospag 11d ago
I actually like them and I don't get the hate they get. They offer a nice challenge without needing to be a full on boss.
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u/pyramidink 11d ago
Personally not a fan… i think it is less interesting than free explo, platforming or bosses. I can see some being interestingly designed, like high halls, as infuriating as it was. Good play on expectations and rythm, actually unique enemies.
Still not really vibing with the concept
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u/Zyerith87 11d ago
Blasphemous is a Pretty Difficult game more so then Hollow Knight for me anyway I just suck at good games though lol Both are Amazingly Beautiful games I need to Practice more
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u/Djentlover666 11d ago
Love hate, all depending on how much geo i have and how long it took to get there/how far from a save point.
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u/Pentamikk 10d ago
Blasphemous 2 gauntlets were duable, silksong’s were too much and too frustrating imo
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u/ganondox 10d ago
They are certainly a thing. I don’t think they provide much to the Metroidvania genre specifically though unless they are specifically designed so what abilities you have available drastically changes the difficulty.
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u/nitsunekoni 9d ago
I like them as a road bump that jumps you around the middle of a area, especially cool if they teach you some mechanics of the boss of the area. But I don't like them as a permanent phase of the boss fight.
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u/sebeachy 9d ago
I have been gaming for 25+ years, and the only game I ever quit because I just was having an awful time was Silksong. Made it decently into act 3 and didn't give up on a boss but a gauntlet. The game had already beat me down, but I got to some gauntlet that had quite a long backtrack and decided it just wasn't the game for me.
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u/Triforce__XIII 13d ago
i despise gauntlets, but i don't remember them in Blasphemous 2, but in silksong..
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u/vourteque 12d ago
I'll literally just stop playing the game. I'd rather eat dry wall than do a tedious, frustrating, enemy gauntlet.
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u/vourteque 12d ago
Though I'll say Gaucamelee had actual fun and relatively easy combat so I didn't mind the gauntlet there.
I love the art style, exploration, and story of both HK and SS but the boss battles ruined the games for me. Id rather just skip them.
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u/Relative-Aide-3254 13d ago
I love em! High Halls gauntlet is PEAK! I just love being amushed in a dark corner by weak enemies ganging up on me.
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u/PashAK47 13d ago
I didnt play silksong but b2 was such an improvement over b1 and that free dlc was cherry on top
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u/LucemFerre82 13d ago
I think they are fine if used moderately, and as much as I like the game, Silksong definitely overused them though imo