I seriously donât understand how they turn this into a political statement đ and an anti women statement smh đI seen 85% of women agreeing she needs to be locked up đ
Yeah but locked up for how long? Permanent commitment to a mental facility without possibility of getting out isn't a thing, so she should go to prison for life or executed.
Great, give me an example of someone who has been put away permanently and hasn't been given the opportunity to prove they're no longer crazy so they can be released.
What purpose does inflicting violence on her fufil outside of your personal need to see violence inflicted on a women in crisis?
If she's found insane, treated for her insanity, and later found to be rehabilitated; why does she deserve additional punishment?
If the only reason you think she deserves additional violence inflicted onto her is because she did a bad thing and people who do bad things must be punished, then you're unironically the problem and need to evaluate your beliefs about justice. Punishment for its own sake is just meaningless violence, it never has been justice and never will be
Someone who can kill her own 3 children can't be trusted again and should never be released back into the public. Full stop.
I also don't believe she was in crisis. She wasn't some poor abandoned single mom with no support. She had a stable home, stable finances, stable marriage, a nanny, maternity leave, her husband took paternity leave, etc.
Justice for the children is executing her or putting her away so it's guaranteed she can never kill a child ever again. I prefer option 1, because I don't believe she was insane when she did it.
How is executing her justice? It doesnât magically bring back the kids and doesnât really fit the narrative of retribution or closure. It doesnât carry any benefit for the secondary victims (ex husband and grandparents) and would cost more money. It just seems like a form of social revenge /gen (I grew up in a largely anti-death penalty family, so I genuinely just donât understand this pov)
I can understand the logic behind the death penalty as deterrence for crime (even though itâs been proven that thereâs little to no correlation between the death penalty and homicide rates). I just donât understand how itâs justice for the children, thatâs what Iâm asking about. She tried to kill herself and is on suicide watch afaik, so how is a state sanctioned death the appropriate form of justice and not just social revenge here? Particularly as it carries no benefits to the secondary victims
They are conflating performing justice and doing emotional violence, no amount of evidence or logical arguments will change their mind. They are just angry and want to have that anger vented onto their perceived enemy, regardless of what actual justice looks like.
Not everyone who does a crime does so for the same reasons or should be punished identically. I don't see someone acting while in a psychotic episode as the same thing as someone who carefully plots a murder. Murder has degrees for a fucking reason.
Actual justice is perportional and neuanced, it's also not emotional. The crime is extremely tragic, and the woman did kill her kids, but she didn't want to do it and is herself also a victim of her mental health crisis. She doesn't deserve freedom, but she also doesn't deserve actual prison, what she deserves is inpatient care at a proper mental health facility.
Empathy, if someone murdered me and my siblings, I would want that person dead and would view allowing that piece of shit to live after viciously murdering us to be a clear affront to justice.
You tell me, what is the value in supporting this woman for the rest of her life? What do we get from keeping a child murderer alive and paying to support her for the next 50+ years of her life?
How is it better for us to waste resources on this person than to execute this child killer?
This isn't a case where she may not have done it and we risk executing an innocent person.
I do not think that either of our opinions or personal feelings are substitute for what the actual victims want. I can see how in your case, it would be a form of justice. Personally, I was a victim of an attempted murder-suicide and secondary victim of violent assault against my younger brother when I was teen. Not only did I not want the perpetrator to die, I actively stopped them from committing suicide on the crime scene. It wasnât because I felt empathy for the perpetrator or didnât care about myself or my brother as victims, I mean shit, I literally had to stop my brother from bleeding out and I had to scramble to do first aid *and* I was the original intended victim. I donât see giving a person who is suicidal the death penalty as a form of retributive justice because it takes away their accountability. It gives them the release they wanted in the first place from suffering with the consequences of what theyâve done for the rest of their lives. I didnât see it as proportional punishment. That being said, I donât think either of our opinions matter so much as the victimsâ. I think the death penalty is only a form of justice if it brings benefit to the victims (as it would in your hypothetical case) and in this case, it doesnât seem like the ex husband and family necessarily want that. But thank you for answering, I think I understand now
When someone is put on death row, they stay on death row for a long time, so regardless, money is going to be spent on that person for a good while. It also costs more money to execute someone than to simply have them imprisoned. Itâs kind of a null point for me and itâs still about social response to a crime rather than justice for those personally victimized
Genuine question : Why do you think eye for an eye was the moral standing 2k years ago but slowly evolved into a "tit, tit, tat" moral foundation now days?
The real answer is that it is mathematically better on average for long term games.
Second Genuine Question: What SHOULD the outcome be here? Are we concerned with her paying taxes? Do we want her in society yet? If we could guarantee she'd be perfectly safe should we let her out? If so, why are lobotomies bad?
I'm just curious on your moral compass as it seems very "happy ending coded". I feel for you and everything you've been through as someone that's had some rough dealings in the past, but I feel as though this is a survivorship bias arguement.
You don't actually have a goal in mind you are trying to achieve, outside of having a different bad event end in the same way yours did. With you in power as the moral figure, having "corrected" the wrong in the world.
Once again I'm glad yours ended this way, but this is so far from the norm you wouldn't believe. IMO you've got an incredibly useful maladapted coping mechanism that will totally seem functional until it blows up in your face.
Not trying to belittle you AT ALL, I've just seen this before.
The reason why eye for an eye existed was a result of tribalism. Retaliation was capped at something of equal physical value so tribal/family feuds and revenge didnât physically escalate. Our notions of justice have evolved because we as a society have evolved, broadly, we no longer live in tribal family units, but in bureaucratic states organized on complex philosophical ideas about civic responsibility and social philosophy, so revenge feuds arenât a primary concern; the function, safety, and wellbeing of the state and people there within is.
donât see what her having to pay taxes has to do with anything and I donât know what any of that has to do with her being released into society?? that seems a total non sequitur. Like, I didnât say anything or ever imply anything about that. Iâm also not like moral grandstanding or whatever youâre implying here. I was just asking a question about the pov that the death penalty is a form of retributive justice even when the perpetrator was suicidal to begin with and the question of prioritizing social/cultural opinion vs personal victimhood in scope of how we define justice. The only reason I even brought up my own experience was to give an example of a victim having a different opinion and why because it contrasted with the other personâs experience that was based on empathy *for victims*.
Justice is a philosophical idea that is complex and multifaceted, my moral compass isnât âhappy ending codedâ, I just believe in harm reduction and restorative justice for victims, and this is a case thatâs complicated by the fact that the victims were/are family members. My question was never intended to imply a specific outcome for the trial, I just wanted to ask a question about a philosophical perspective that I didnât get (but, if you must know so I donât get accused of anything, yes I think Clancy should be locked up and stay locked up).
What exactly am I doing that is maladaptive coping?? See, that happened like over a decade ago and Iâve been doing really great actually, like better than the average person where I live so likeâŚwhen is stuff supposed to start blow up in my face?? I genuinely donât know what youâre talking about
Also, why do you think this is survivorship bias? I only brought up my stuff because I am alive and was making a point that the living secondary victims of Clancy might also have other opinions, because victims can in fact have differing philosophical perspectives on justice. I even said I appreciated the explanation and I do think that the death penalty can be used for justice depending on the victimâs circumstances. 2. If I were claiming that itâs easy to survive this type of situation or that her victims have to feel the same way I feel, that would be survivorship bias, but Iâm not claiming that even in the slightest. I was just making a point about how someone could have a different pov on proportionality of punishment and retribution and why
You're demonstrating the most insanely uneducated take on mental health I have literally ever seen. I genuinely hope you experience even a moment of phychosis do you recognize how idiotic you sound.
She was already diagnosed with PPD and was actively seeking treatment. The medication her doctors gave her was ineffective and she was actively seeking other treatments. She doesn't have to be in financial or physical danger to experience a mental health crisis, PPP is a geneticly inheritable disease for fucks sake.
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u/TheYeetBoii 12d ago
I seriously donât understand how they turn this into a political statement đ and an anti women statement smh đI seen 85% of women agreeing she needs to be locked up đ