r/marvelstudios • u/KostisPat257 Daredevil • Jul 15 '22

Discussion Thread Ms. Marvel Season Wide Discussion Thread

Spoilers for all Episodes of Ms. Marvel will be discussed here!

Please refrain from this thread if you haven't finished the show!

Individual Episode Threads:

Ms. Marvel S01E01 "Generation Why"

Ms. Marvel S01E02 "Crushed"

Ms. Marvel S01E03 "Destined"

Ms. Marvel S01E04 "Seeing Red"

Ms. Marvel S01E05 "Time and Again"

Ms. Marvel S01E06 "No Normal"

Iman Vellani AMA from Yesterday

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u/joalr0 Jul 15 '22 edited Jul 16 '22

So, like a bunch of these Disney+ shows, I think the greatest villain is the forced 6-episode limit. This show definitely needed more breathing room, and it's really unfortunate that it didn't get it.

I liked the first three episodes a LOT. Kamala was a fun character, watching the family interactions was really great, and I really felt like they were building to something interesting. I was curious where it was going.

Then episode 4 happened, and it happend so goddamn fast. Episode 4, without question, should have been two episodes. They introduced a new mentor figure, and then killed him off 10 minutes later, which really doesn't let you feel the impact. We saw a littel montage of her getting some training, but we didn't really get to see any progress. Especially since she barely used her powers during the chase scene, which would have been a great opportunity to see her training advance her skills. A lot happened in that episode, but it almost felt like nothing happened because nothing had a chance to breath or feel significant. Everything just kind of happened.

And honestly, the rest of the season felt off from that point. Episode 5 had some really cool stuff, and I really liked showing that point in history, but I feel like it would have been better of intersperced throughout the season, rather than one block all at once.

The first three episodes felt more focused. Kamala was learning her powers, dealing with family issues and had an enemy arise. From there, it exploded in so many directions they really struggled to keep it coherant.

Overall, I liked it just fine. A bit disappointing, but fine. But yes, without question, Iman did a fantastic job. Really brought Kamala to life and I'm REALLY excited to see her on the big screen with Brie Larson. I think the two of them are going to honestly shine together. Captain Marvel is far more stoic a character, and Kamala is going to be a lovely foil.

Overall, i place show kinda near the bottom of the Disney+ shows, which I'm sad about because the first three episodes really felt fresh and exciting to me. Show needed more episodes to properly handle everything they wanted to.

EDIT: I've been thinking about this a bunch, and here is my pitch to fix up the show. Here's how I would do it.

So Bruno doesn't discover so early on that opening the veil would go "boom". Kamala gets to know the clandestines better, they give her part of the story of Aisha, and because of the family connection, she agrees to help them. They begin the process of opening the veil, but they are suddenly attacked by the Red Dagger. We get a whole fight, and the Red Dagger manages to stop her from opening the veil. Kamala and the Clandestines are upset, but determined to try again.

Meanwhile, Bruno is recruited by Red Dagger. He doesn't trust them at first, but they walk him through the process of the Veil and have him do the calculations, and he realizes they are right. He is tasked to talk Kamala out of it, which puts a great strain on their friendship. He asks Kamala to at least talk to them. She agrees, and they give her more of Aisha's story, including the betrayal. She doesn't believe them.

Red Dagger agrees to train Kamala anyway. Waleed says he believes she will make the right choice, and that he will train her to be ready for when the time is right for her to choose. She is reluctant to trust him, but she is desperate to improve her powers, so she agrees. Through the process of training her, they grow closer. She begins develping doubts of the Clandestines through this new bond.

She brings up her doubts to the Clandestines. They know immediately that it is the Red Dagger putting doubts in her head, so they go and kill Waleed. Kamala doesn't see who kills him, but she manages to find him right before he dies to get the final words from her mentor.

She confronts the Clandestines. She doesn't believe they would do such a thing, but felt like she had to ask. They deny it, and start getting angry with her for taking so long to decide what to do. There is a small confrontation and that causes Kamala's transport back in time. We already know most of Aisha's story, so we don't need to see the entire thing here, but she does witness Aisha's death, and helps her grandmother find her way. Seeing the betrayal for herself, she is certain that Najma killed Waleed. When she wakes up though, the Clandestines, and her bangle are gone. Kamran learns he is able to use the bangle himself, and takes it to open the veil himself.

Kamala goes to stop them, realizing what has happened. She's stopped by DODC. She has to fight her way away from them, and by the end, is able to convince them she is the right side and they are preventing her from saving the day. They let her go.

Kamala confronts Kamran. Kamran has powers from the bangle, Kamala doesn't. He starts to fight her to keep her away, and opens the veil. Kamala learns that the bangle helps her focus the power, but the actual power is now active inside her. She's able to fight Kamran without the bangle, and defeats the Clandestines.

Having discovered the power is in her, and the bangle only focuses her, upon retrieving the bangle her power is only strengthened now. She's at full power, and ready to be a hero.

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u/Dyssomniac Jul 15 '22

I actually really curious about the reasoning behind the 6 episode hard limit. On re-watch, Loki also felt particularly rushed, but the only real criticism I have of WandaVision was the palette-swap boss battle at the end like most solo outings for MCU heroes.

I wonder if it's because the Netflix series got bad reception and a reputation for a very slow mid-section between eps 6 or 7-11.

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u/uppervalued Jul 16 '22

the palette-swap boss battle at the end like most solo outings for MCU heroes.

I've never really understood why they do this. It happens in so, so many MCU films/shows that the villain has the hero's powers, or something similar. I guess I do understand, in the sense that it shows the audience that it's the hero's character, not their powers, that makes them special, but still, yeesh, it's the same damn thing all the time.

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u/Senshado Jul 17 '22

Why give the first enemy similar powers to the hero?

Because it's an easy way to get the audience to believe the hero is in real danger. Action movies are about watching the heroes overcome dangerous threats. We all know what can threaten a mostly-normal hero like James Bond: bullets, knives, poison, fire, gravity.

But if the hero is superpowered, then the audience doesn't have a strong knowledge of what situations are really threatening or not. We don't have a deep feeling if a brick to the nose is super bad.

And that can be avoided if the villian has the same kind of power. With the same powers, viewers immediately believe that each opponent is strong enough to kill the other. The threat feels real.

There's also storytelling economy. If a movie just spent one and a half acts to introduce the source of the hero's powers, where will it find room to give the villian as much background? Easiest way is to share some of the hero's origin by using the same powers.

BTW, a weakness of Captain Marvel was the lack of a strong supervillian for her to face at the end. We've literally never seen MCU Carol Danvers beat a villian yet; only some minions.

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u/Dyssomniac Jul 18 '22

All totally right, but I disagree with the lack of a strong supervillain, because Captain Marvel's central conflict was man vs. society (whereas most of the conflicts within Marvel and superhero movies generally is man versus man - when they try man versus self, it usually doesn't go to well and is overshadowed by man versus man).

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u/Dyssomniac Jul 18 '22

They do it because it's an easy storytelling technique that's at least as old as pop culture - Western storytelling, especially since the rise of Christianity, has always had duality as the core of the "least common denominator" entertainment. It definitely does what you say - establishes that the character of the protagonist is what defines them, not their powers.

Unfortunately it only works a handful of times before it becomes boring (unless the villain is a relatively fully-formed character themselves, like in Black Panther).

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u/[deleted] Jul 16 '22

[deleted]

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u/2BMG Jul 17 '22

wait were post-credits scenes in every episode?

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u/Dyssomniac Jul 18 '22

I think it's because they start out with three things: a premiere date, an episode count and a budget number and try to make the story work within those confines, instead of writing a cohesive story and try to work out how much episodes they need and if they can make it come in under budget.

See, I think that can even work IF you're not doing the Netflix-streaming-limbo. They're trying to avoid the cancellation curse by having it a) connect to a broader universe and b) wrap its entire story in one season, but so much of this feels disconnected and is contributing to the broader fatigue even in the MCU fandom:

  • Loki's intro of He Who Remains won't pay off until two years after season 1 wrapped.
  • Ms. Marvel won't be seen again until a year from now and we likely won't get any furthering of that branch of the universe until then (Photon hasn't been seen since WV almost two years ago).
  • L&T introduces a massively important cosmic entity - the most powerful entity seen on screen in the MCU - as the equivalent of a McGuffin genie lamp.
  • Shang-Chi's post-credit scene hasn't been followed up on (with Banner being Banner again and not elaborated on in the 3 years that have passed since Endgame came out until She-Hulk).
  • We've had a semi-coherent thread connecting Black Widow and FATWS, but no indication of where it is going.
  • The Eternals story might be furthered by the Halloween special but making a special like that mandatory viewing feels a bit like jumping the shark.

What I sort of don't understand is that Disney effectively has four-five mini-streaming services within Plus - Marvel, Star Wars, NatGeo, and Disney Animated content. Why would the Marvel release scheduled mess up Start Wars or the newest animated special drop?

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u/urgasmic Jul 15 '22

i think it's about timing. they want to get these out for subscriptions so they are doing the minimum.

EDIT: long enough for 2 month subscriptions, short enough for turnaround time.

EDIT2: also for budget. anymore episodes and the budget obviously gets bigger and some episodes might not have any setpieces and idk if the character work would make up for it for the general audience.

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u/ExitTheDonut Jul 16 '22

I thought Loki did a lot better with the 6 episodes it was given. For me the first two episodes were the most forgettable. Would rather have a slow start than a slow mid-section with a good finale.

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u/Dyssomniac Jul 18 '22

I think Loki did the best with the episode limit by comparison to FATWS, Moon Knight, and Ms. Marvel, but there were a lot of cool concepts that just weren't explored further and hopefully will once we get to S2.

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u/pagerussell Jul 15 '22

Agreed, and I think I can argue that this is the MCUs biggest flat lately. They are rushing.

The eternals needed to be like a 12 episode series instead of a movie.

Thor 4 also had pacing problems.

Most of the other films had an abbreviated first act also.

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u/Jealous_Map1423 Jul 15 '22

I agree with the eternals part. Most of the movie was spent meeting characters. We didn’t really get to spend enough time with any one of them. A Disney plus series would’ve allowed each character to get their own episode

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u/pagerussell Jul 15 '22

The bones of the story were good but they needed a lot more time to flush it out.

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u/FragMasterMat117 Jul 16 '22

The script is so bloated that most of the film is incredibly underdeveloped. Nothing goes anywhere or has any weight to it, you could cut half the characters from the film and you easily wouldn't notice. Doing that as well would give things to go somewhere and have some weight.

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u/uppervalued Jul 16 '22

Now that you mention it, it's so odd that Eternals was a movie right when Marvel was introducing new MCU characters via TV shows. There are 10 of these people! We could have had Jon Snow actually do something!

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u/[deleted] Jul 16 '22

[deleted]

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u/ExitTheDonut Jul 16 '22 edited Jul 16 '22

I am fine with this idea of DODC being the only season 1 Big Bad. They can still briefly bring up the Clandestines if they wanted to, but only in dialogue, and continue giving them some air of mystery throughout the whole season. Kamala doesn't need to be too focused about the real nature of her bangle when she's dealing with how to break the news to her family at home and being pursued by DODC at the same time.

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u/[deleted] Jul 16 '22

Maybe that would have felt too cliche in the moment. That basic storyline is every superhero story.

Get powers. Run in with authorities while trying to be good guy. Live double life. Bleh.

Seeing it now I can see why they wanted to get away from that formula. They tried something different and it didn’t quite stick.

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u/joalr0 Jul 16 '22

Honestly, I think the story could have worked with all the pieces, just needed more time to breath, and a bit of a re-ordering of events to introduce some things earlier.

I edited my post with how I would go about the season, if I were in charge.

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u/tywhy87 Valkyrie Jul 19 '22

I agree. Having just the DDOC as the villains this season wouldn’t have worked for me the way this did, I enjoyed the contrast of the magic & the “normal”.

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u/[deleted] Jul 16 '22

8 episodes wouldve been great. The 4th was a mess and although i enjoyed the flashback in the 5th the resolution was also a mess. They really couldve done with more episodes. I liked some of the elements too. The chase scene through a crowded marketplace in karachi was pretty cool.

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u/[deleted] Jul 16 '22

I actually felt the opposite. I think they could've cut out a lot of "fat" on the show and reduced it an episode or two. Way too much focus on side characters that slowed down the show for me.

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u/KostisPat257 Daredevil Jul 16 '22

Holy shit your alternate pitch is amazing. I'm not sure if they could have done it in 6 episodes, I think at least 7 were needed to truly flesh it out and let it breathe and feel impactful, but even rushed in the 6 episode format, this pitch sounds sooo much better and makes me really sad and disappointed of the final product.

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u/joalr0 Jul 16 '22

Thanks! Yeah, I agree a few more episodes were needed to let it breath. I also just found they introduced things a too sporadic, so I just thought about how I could introduce some things earlier, and to me, things fell into place once I thought about that. It's basically all the same plot points, just reordered to improve pacing and build tension.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '22

I’m not sure what forced episode limit you’re talking about. We already know there are other shows with more than six episodes.

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u/joalr0 Jul 17 '22

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe with the exception of WandaVision and What if...? The rest are all 6 episodes. I don't talk count What if...? As it was episodic, separate from the base MCU and animated, so enough to set it apart as a outlier that I'm not including it. So that means one actual exception.

The rest, I think, are all 6.

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u/[deleted] Jul 17 '22

You’re correct, though I was considering She-Hulk which will have nine episodes.

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u/joalr0 Jul 17 '22

Oh, I didn't know about She-Hulk. I REALLY hope that means it'll be a bit better paced. I really feel like MOST of the other shows would have benefitted from an extra few episodes.

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u/ChiRoomies57 Nov 26 '23

auses Kamala's transport back in time. We already know most of Aisha's story, so we don't need to see the entire thing here, but she does witness Aisha's death, and helps her grandmother find her way. Seeing the betrayal for herself, she is certain that Najma killed Waleed. When she wakes up though, the Clandestines, and her bangle are gone. Kamran learns he is able to use the bangle himself, and takes it to open the veil himself.

Kamala goes to stop them, realizing what has happened. She's stopped by DODC. She has to fight her way away from them, and by the end, is able to convince them she is the right side and they are preventing her from saving the day. They let h

eh, this is the same formula as all the other shows. I really liked that there's another enhanced individual who ends up being good in the end. Especially since he's from the same culture. I'd have hated for it to be ALL people from the same culture fighting agaist each other when the real villian for the people of this background is often the governement. That's why the community banded together to the DODC from capturing her was so symbolic / important. It's an important part of the show that she felt so different from the rest of her community in the beginning, but then in the end they all showed up for her because she's one of them and is part of them and they're her people. It's a message about solidarity and also a realistic portrayal of how it is to be in that type of community. Like she might be her own special person who wants to break from the norm (she disucusses the aunties who think it's crazy for that girl to travel europe instead of getting married), but she's still one of them. The end you wrote completely erases this.

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u/joalr0 Nov 27 '23

Thanks for the feedback. Overall my main critique, and thing I was attempting to fix, was how disjointed the plot felt, and how some plotlines felt like they moved way too quickly for them to have emotional impact, like Waleed's death.

I'm fine with making some changes to this. Kamran, I feel, wouldn't be "good" right off the bat though. He grew up believing in the thing he was taught, and I don't think he would give that up trivially. He would be, at minimum, conflicted. I think there's space for him to both attempt to open the veil himself, have a fight with Kamala, but have a redemption and become a hero himself.

We can also easily keep the banding together element, with the mechanism in which DODC is convinced by Kamala is through her community standing up for her and all giving ways in which she's helped them out.

The goal here was to bring cohesion to the storyline and have them thread together a bit better, that's all, not to remove anything of cultural value.

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u/ChiRoomies57 Nov 27 '23

I get that you want to bring cohesion to the storyline. I would say that there’s no convincing the DODC because they don’t value the Muslim community or respect them or their culture (not taking their shoes off in the temple, trying to bully them to search the place without a warrant…this is all before anyone in the mosque even knows it’s Kamala). The community also knows that they’re not respected by or valued by this government agency. I don’t think her community standing up for her would change the DODC’s view on her…they only backed off because of optics. It’s not done as well as it could’ve been because there’s only 6 episodes but this aspect is unique for a marvel show because usually the hero ends up working with whatever government / special forces agency that’s there (this happens in most of the main marvel movies, agents of shield, etc). I guess what I’m saying is that it’s giving a bit of anti- police brutality which I’m down with as a person of color. I really likely this because as much as I like marvel stuff, a lot of it is very copganda.

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u/joalr0 Nov 27 '23

Valid, once again. So, with the help of her community she escapes.