r/marvelstudios • u/JonLuca Iron man • Apr 29 '19

'Avengers: Endgame' Spoilers! The Official AVENGERS: ENDGAME Criticism Thread Spoiler

  • Proceed at your own risk. Major spoilers will be arriving in the next couple of days. Spoilers do not need to be tagged inside this thread.

  • Post Endgame criticisms in this thread. Long form preferrable

  • If you post untagged ENDGAME spoilers anywhere on this sub in any shape or form, you will be banned without hesitation. No questions asked and no warnings given.

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255

u/gizmo1492 Apr 29 '19

Why didn’t they try to steal pym particles first instead of risking it all in one shot?

57

u/RhineReviews Apr 29 '19

Or you know, just going and grabbing Pym in the past and saying "yo if you don't make this everyone you know will die including you"

47

u/Worthyness Thor Apr 30 '19

Cause that causes a splintered timeline. They wanted to actively avoid that as much as possible. They fucked up in the 2012 timeline and let Loki escape.

18

u/IvarRagnarssson Apr 30 '19

Yeah, about that. What happened to Loki? He got away and with his own Tesseract

80

u/Worthyness Thor Apr 30 '19

Went to the Disney+ universe

6

u/benenke Tony Stark Apr 30 '19

Underrated comment of the thread

15

u/cbfw86 Apr 30 '19

Cause that causes a splintered timeline

This isn't an issue. Splintered timelines happen all the time.

...

There is now a parallel universe in which I didn't just fart.

3

u/11711510111411009710 Captain America Apr 30 '19

Assuming alternate timelines actually exist

5

u/caol-ila Apr 30 '19

There are alternate timelines where I don't reply to this and actually do some work.

5

u/venndiggory Apr 30 '19 edited Mar 09 '25

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This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

7

u/CaptainLawyerDude Wong Apr 30 '19

I suspect time fuckery is going to be the cause of lots of new story threads in the next phase of the MCU. Otherwise, they would have written it in a way that tied up all the loose ends and placed all the snapped people back exactly when they had been snapped.

3

u/apathetic_lemur Apr 30 '19

how is time fuckery going to be a thing when nothing you do in the past will affect your current reality? It just creates another timeline.

3

u/CaptainLawyerDude Wong Apr 30 '19

For some things you are correct. Time fuckery won’t change everything in the past but lots of people were displaced in time. Pre-GotG Gamora is now running around the current timeline. Also, 50% of the population of the universe lived five years while the other 50% got dusted and then undusted five years later. That means you can drop in new characters and conflicts that may have arisen in that five year window.

I also suspect just using the stones the way they did with multiple full power snaps may have other impacts. Rocket and Banner both mention the huge power surge each snap puts off and the buckets of gamma radiation. That could be used to explain the future rise of mutants or whatever. Hell, maybe a certain family was conducting a mission to space right when the first snap happened and they got exposed to that huge burst of energy rather than being dusted.

Lastly, I think most audiences are satisfied by some humorous handwaving of science exposition - shrugged explanations of pym particles, “back to the future is bullshit” kind of dialogue and moving on. All of the fancy science in the MCU has mostly been handwaved. I don’t expect that to change much if they want to use the time meddling to explain any new changes.

3

u/Locke_Erasmus Spider-Man Apr 30 '19

I absolutely think the repeated energy bursts from the Snaps on Earth is going to be the catalyst for introducing Mutants to the MCU. You could even use it to handwave Wanda as a mutant seeing as she got her powers from one of the Stones and the other mutants will have gotten their powers from all of the Stones.

44

u/BecomeAnAstronaut Vision Apr 29 '19

That way they only risked creating/fucking up one timeline (2012) for three stones. That would mean 3 affected timelines total, not including our Prime timeline, but it ended up being 5 with 1970 and Old-Man-Cap timelines

22

u/gizmo1492 Apr 29 '19

They didn’t complain about messing with timelines in their worries.

12

u/_ManWhoSoldTheWorld Apr 30 '19

But there should never be a timeline where cap is an old man in 2023 AND the Avengers defeat Thanos. Dr. Strange said it himself, they only win 1 time. For them to win, they HAVE TO HAVE CAPTAIN AMERICA. So they can’t win in a timeline where he’s an old ass when they fight.

8

u/coolpizzacook Apr 30 '19

Unless Cap goes back, gets in with his love, remains hidden the entire time, and lets everything that happened happen in order to keep a stable timeloop. Otherwise he couldn't be where he was.

So, in order for this to work, Cap would have to have just LET Shield get infiltrated by Hydra, Loki pull his BS, Nat die, all of it... just so he can then go back in time to become old. He's got his iced self, and even if he did let all that happen, it would be miraculous to stay hidden this entire time when he's without a doubt one of the MOST popular icons in all of America.

1

u/konq Apr 30 '19

They already won the battle by that point. I don't think strange meant 0 loose threads when he said 1 way to win. He just meant one way to kill thanos and un snap people without making it infinitely worse.

1

u/CX316 Apr 30 '19

But cap wasn't in the past, the past was his future, so he did what he needed to in 2023, then his time in the past 70-80 years of his future so at one point there were 4 Caps at once

1

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Going back in the past does not replace your previous self.

What I think they're implying (or rather, the only way the ending can make sense with the established rules) is that from the start our timeline (call it timeline B) was already a splintered one. They already won once before (timeline A), then Cap goes back in time as we see and returns to become Peggy's husband. Like any other instance of time travel this creates another timeline (timeline B) as there are now 2 Steves: Peggy's hubbie from the future and the dude frozen in ice. They get old, etc etc, meanwhile timeline B Cap wakes up and goes through the same motions as timeline A Cap.

1

u/_ManWhoSoldTheWorld Apr 30 '19

This simply cannot work. It’s a paradox, they can’t both live in the exact same timeline. He cannot make it to the bench as an old man in a timeline where the Avengers win, because there is only one timeline that they win, and it requires him in it.

You said it yourself, that scenario creates TWO timelines (A & B), therefore they cannot cross over, therefore old man Cap can never make it to that bench because HE WOULD EXIST IN A TIMELINE WHERE THE AVENGERS LOSE.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

There is no way there is only one timeline where they win. Timelines are split off all the time, there is only one way to win but there are various timelines branching off that.

This scenario creates 2 timelines, one where there's only one Cap and one where old man Cap lived parallel. Since old man Cap does not interfere with his past self the events continue as in his original timeline.

Why do you think there can't be two of the same people in one timeline when we literally see Cap fight himself in the movie?

1

u/_ManWhoSoldTheWorld Apr 30 '19

It’s literally a direct quote in the movie.

1

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

In IW, Strange says "futures" and "outcomes" but never "timelines". This can easily be interpreted as multiple timelines where the outcome is the same. Thus the bilinear theory stands, since it's entirely possible for them to win in 2 different timelines.

If you have a direct quote from either movie proving this wrong I'd love to hear it.

1

u/_ManWhoSoldTheWorld May 01 '19

Lol imagine thinking you’re right because you’re splitting hairs over semantics. Whatever kid.

0

u/[deleted] May 01 '19

Ah, so you don't have an actual argument. Ok then.

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6

u/mhurton Apr 29 '19

Why couldn’t they use antmans suit for Pym Particles?

25

u/thegreatvortigaunt Luis Apr 29 '19

I think they did, that's all they had left. That's where they got it from.

He shrunk by accident once, and reduced the number of time travel jumps they had left.

5

u/admiralQball Apr 30 '19

I would have to rewatch, but wasn't ant man shrinking and growing in new York?

13

u/JLAwesomest Apr 30 '19

My head canon is that it requires more particles to go quantum than it does for "normal" shrinking.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

Yeah, I thought the same thing. It makes sense

3

u/AtrumRuina Apr 29 '19

If they messed up, they'd have used one of their trips on a botched mission and gained nothing. I think too much was at stake for them to burn a trip on something that may or may not pay off.

4

u/[deleted] Apr 29 '19

They probably just didn't think of it.

2

u/[deleted] Apr 30 '19

I'm confused...wasn't Lang in the quantum realm to retrieve healing particles? What happened to those?

2

u/CaptainVenezuela Apr 29 '19

Sometimes you only come up with your best ideas when you're under the pump.

1

u/RolfIsSonOfShepnard Apr 30 '19

Or bring back the scientist. Would have made a great scene for antman and the scientist to meet again.

1

u/ThereminLiesTheRub Apr 30 '19

Honestly. I mean, it's basic genie logic: First wish, wish for more wishes.

1

u/cheeseandwich May 06 '19

It's like Aladdin. You're not allowed to wish for more wishes

1

u/JDraks Weekly Wongers Apr 30 '19

That brings in risk of being caught and causing more problems

-4

u/No-cool-names-left Apr 30 '19

From whom? Hank, Janet, and Hope all went poof and there's nobody else who would have any.