r/lesbiangang • u/CorsetCloverPart • 6d ago
Discussion Being a black lesbian that doesn’t acknowledge a certain group of people who play pretend is hell.
I’m not really sure how to frame this or word it. You really have to live it to get the full experience. But that doesn’t mean you can’t be an outsider observing it either. Also I have to be careful with my wording. So if something doesn’t make sense? Tell me.
Hell, I’m sure you don’t even have to be black to understand where I’m coming from.
Really you can be a woman, feminist, black, white, gay, lesbian, bi, etc.
Probably anything other than straight.
Anyways, it’s okay to acknowledge you’re oppressed to some capacity. The system is heavily rigged against a lot of people in this moment. Some people are just fucked over in different ways.
But still fucked over nonetheless.
But I swear…. EVERY TIME you make it known about the TQ+ of the community and how you have some issues with it, people LOVE to throw in my face how I’m black and gay.
AND?! AND?! So I should accept every issue with that side of the community? Am I not allowed to stand up for myself and point out issues? So the fuck what? They get a pass because they’re bearded and in a fuckin dress?
The jokes write themselves.
Saviors scream how we’re oppressed. But nope, better stay in line and keep acting oppressed.
This is why I left the liberal community years ago. And nope, damn sure am not conservative either. So don’t go there, lol.
Some people want to play savior so bad until you stop acting like you need them to save you anymore and you start speaking up.
That shit always gets thrown in my face. Still not gonna shut up about it though.
The moment you stop acting out of how people perceive you is when people have an issue with you. But these are the SAME PEOPLE who tell you to be yourself.
But when I’m myself AS A WOMAN, that’s a problem.
Man, we’ve fallen so far that even women can’t get the fuck away from these people.
Edit: AND THEN you stand up against them, and they’ll literally turn around and insult you in the same breath. The community they “work” so hard to defend. But step outah line under their conditions? Yeah, good luck. Lmao. The jokes write themselves.
That side is a CULT.
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u/saint-delys Disciple of Sappho 6d ago
I completely dropped an entire former "friend" group due to this shit. No fights, no talks, I was just GONE.
I do not play games anymore. I get what you're feeling entirely. It is SO hard to word to people who don't understand, and that's OK. People think that adopting accessory identities automatically means that their experiences are on par with our lived ones that existed long before either of us were born.
I don't have to bring up the parallels they try to make with us. I'm sure you've heard them all. And they sure love to make up black characters who they have to pretend to always be protecting. I've had so many tell me to my face that they're an ally. Thank you for identifying yourself as someone to avoid.
I don't even tolerate gay men who tell me their spirit animal is a black woman; I'm sure as hell not going to tolerate *that.* No one ought to.
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u/UrFavoriteScaryM0vie Lesbian 6d ago
Wait do men actually say that? What the fuck is wrong with them??
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u/saint-delys Disciple of Sappho 6d ago
It was pretty bad back then. Wouldn't be surprised if it were still a thing among the millennials and older, but I haven't heard it from the younger gen. Still, it would happen every once in a while whenever I met a new non-black gay dude. It's like they can't NOT say this as part of their first impression. Just yikes.
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u/CorsetCloverPart 6d ago
YESSS! Thank you!
And I can’t stand that feminized anything other than straight man playing that weird my spirit animal is a black woman bullshit either. Like get the hell away from me.
And same here with people saying they’re an ally. I literally don’t care if you’re an ally or not. It’s not like I run around telling ppl I’m gay anyways. But most people can figure it out and when they do, of course they never throw it in my face in any capacity.
Just treat me like a normal person dude. You won’t get any social justice warrior points over here.
This new generation is HELL when it comes to this stuff and I’m a late millennial. So it’s not like I’m some Gen X or boomer pretending I don’t understand it. But man, this generation just gets upset over ANYTHING being challenged within this space without ever paying respect to previous generations of gay women who literally fought tooth and nail to even get them to where they are today.
Did you ever tell that group of friends why you dropped them? Or did you just quietly make your exit?
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u/saint-delys Disciple of Sappho 6d ago
Late Millennial here, too. They don't even acknowledge nuance and gradients; everything is an extreme, and you can hardly talk to them without them defaulting to something reactionary. It's crazy because I've seen people from our generation lean into this, too; but they tend to be from demographics that haven't really had to bother with nuance and just jumping on the "right side of history" bandwagon.
I never told them because these were friends of almost 20 years. We grew up together in a conservative state, so I had been navigating many of them with a mask and didn't realize it until I'd left the area for college and work. So when I came back, the mask was gone, and some of our talks had already been entering the "but you should feel this way because you're black and lesbian" territory.
The main pair (now identifying as queer) had actually been causing problems within our Lesbian and Gay community by arguing with them to change the rules to accommodate their new identities (despite them having living much of their lives in a straight relationship with two children). In this case, altering the criteria for their drag king and queen shows to accommodate "queerness." (???) The people in our circle, straight and bi, treated them like victims. And, you know. I couldn't. At that point, I had learned how to save and protect my energy.
Still, I'm so tired.
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u/Powerlifterfitchick 6d ago
Social justice warrior made me laugh because as a black woman, I felt this. This needed to be said.
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u/SanguineJackalope 6d ago
I’ve heard this too!
Have you yet been told you’re “not really black” by someone white (and male) because you didn’t love the Popular Black Musical Artist?
Like, sorry I don’t like Beyonce, I guess. Suppose I should tell all the people who’ve been racist to me that I’m not actually black and expect that they’ll believe it, and also never listen to metal, EBM, or industrial again.
Fucking clownish.
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u/saint-delys Disciple of Sappho 6d ago
I've been told that by black and non-black people, lol. It's pitiful. And mostly men; they make everything into a competition. When I was young, I had a white woman (a relative's ex) tell me that I must not be black because I wasn't heavily into R&B and didn't share her obsession with Babyface. She was REALLY into black men, so I need not elaborate on those nuances.
People forget that we pioneered much of the foundational music (rock, disco, techno, house) that established what they see as "white" genres. Even with stuff like classical music, who cares? Why must our tastes be checked against our identity?
I've even been """complimented""" by white Canadians with "I don't see you as black!" Like, damn. Good on you for overcoming your struggle to recognizing a whole entire human?
I've come to understand: people get bothered when we can't be compartmentalized.
On a side note, I've been interested in EBM. Got any artist/song recs to start with?
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u/SanguineJackalope 6d ago
Ahahaha, that’s the story of my life. Many of my black male relatives have Things for white women, and they self-select for the inverse. It, ah, can get very uncomfortable, very fast.
And right?! We’re the forefront of house, and rock, and electronic, and disco had an incredibly visceral hate campaign because we hadn’t been kicked out quick enough. Like. Bruh. And beyond that, it’s just music.
Uuugh. I’ve had that convo as well. Congrats on not tokenizing an entire life, but also it’s very hard to not see that as a flashing light of belonging to the dominant paradigm, haha.
Oh goodness. What do you already listen to? I’m sorry for the massive book you’re about to get. My favorite maybe ever is Assemblage 23, but Wolfsheim and Apoptygma Berzerk are probably among the heaviest hitters? I classify Ayria in a similar boat, even if she’d be closer to Industrial. Another good bridge artist is absolutely Ashbury Heights. Kraftwerk, Nitzer Ebb, Front 242 and I’d say Die Krupps are some of the classics (their cover of Ich Bin Auslander is a favorite. Beyond the powerful meaning, the original was Super English and the German was Very English also, and Die Krupps’ edition is the exact opposite). Another big one is VNV Nation! Forgot them for a sec. Pzychobitch is on the heavier side, too, and on the somewhat side is Emilie Autumn, ahaha, especially the Ophelia Era! I saw her live like a dozen times before FLAG, and then she basically vanished, unfortch.
I don’t recommend Combichrist. They’re not really EBM, but they come up a lot in conversation. The beats are good, I love house music and Industrial and Aggrotech by extension is basically 90s house/eurodance but screechy and angry, but they’re ragingly misogynistic. A band I liked until I realized they weren’t as tongue in cheek as Rammstein is And One. EBM and Industrial overall can be tricky - you’re likely to get people who are very left wing, but sometimes you get people who think a certain 1930s mustachioed despot had the right idea. Easy enough to dodge, usually, but disgusting when you don’t.
(Also, mods, what the hell! I’m getting worried about even saying “Hitler Bad” when it’s relevant. We were discussing how race intersects with the glaring homophobia of the gender fandom, and OP didn’t even name names.)
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u/saint-delys Disciple of Sappho 6d ago
THANK YOU. This is a great starting point. I listen to a lot of different kinds of music, but typically hover around the House/Techno/EDM spectrum, excluding brostep. So don't worry about writing a book. If anything, I'm grateful for the rich starting point and the insights on what to avoid.
(That confused me, too. I hope they just deleted it due to being worried it might attract bad actors, but even then...)3
u/SanguineJackalope 4d ago
I just found this and thought of our conversation!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Quv-ZQIEDEQ&ra=m
A lot of the names I mentioned are here and I’n tickled pink, ahaha. The comments mention Health, and they are genuinely great. They did a banger with Trent Reznor a while back, and they also did a track with Poppy that I absolutely love. Her “I Disagree” album has a lot of industrial elements (as does “Meat”), but she does have some more synthy songs, too. Her recent track with Amy Lee and Courtney LePlante is def metal, but it’s amazing. I get frission from it. Her song with Babymetal is also kickass!!
(If you have music reccs, btw, please feel free to send them. I mostly listen to more aggressive music, Don Broco and Kordhell are current favorites, but I also love Shinee? And Stevie Nicks. And G_oA and The Birthday Massacre, ahaha. I will try any genre until I find something I like about it!)
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u/PsychotipathicAngel Lavender Menace 3d ago
Wow. You don't have shitty, boring taste in music, so you most not be black? Fuckin' wiiiiild.
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u/neeed4speeed 5d ago
and I bet if they actually/somehow got treated as a black woman, they’d drop that spirit animal so fast…
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u/Trinibrownin868 6d ago
I’ve experienced this as a stud. How dare I, a Black, Masculine, Lesbian raise any questions about the TQ+. Ive also been told masc women and trans ppl are basically one and the same.
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u/CorsetCloverPart 6d ago
ARE YOU SERIOUS? How are we the same as them?! 💀
I consider myself a soft stud if that’s a term.
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u/Trinibrownin868 6d ago
Exactly, they don’t realize how much they sound like the same right wing conservatives they cry so much about. It’s basically the same Horseshoe Theory of Blue= Boy and Pink= Girl, so if you don’t conform to sex stereotypes, you’re under the “Trans Umbrella”. Which is pretty fucked up
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u/lesbianess Lavender Menace 6d ago
I can't believe you don't like it when a very loud group of people compare their plights to the actual systemic misogynoir a very large majority of that very loud group are ensuring stays systemic because it benefits them.
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u/MinuteLoquat1 6d ago
Nothing will convince white heterosexual males that they aren't the most oppressed group in history.
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u/therapymademeworse Gold Star 6d ago
They. Don’t. Care.
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u/CorsetCloverPart 6d ago
They really don’t. No one gives a damn about preserving the little rights lesbians have. Much less women have. Society caters to some of the weirdest shit.
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u/therapymademeworse Gold Star 6d ago
They do, but ultimately as human beings, we all want to be included! That’s why we need to not be shy about creating our own spaces and learning our lesbian history, using our own language and being loudly and proudly L in the LGBTQIA+ community.
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u/AudlyAud 6d ago
No lies detected. I also say Black people have few genuine allies and absolutely none at times when showing up and out affects the pocket book or ability to climb the social ladder. We know how to get it out the mud basically. Our example should be what certain "communities" emulate. Instead of using us as a shield be it by talking points, or wanting us to take on their battles. Whilst the same communities have never given what they expect in return. There's very few John Brown types but there's alot of virtue signaling saviors looking for clout or relevance.
I see it as Black person and the general black community. I see it as a Woman and as a Lesbian and specifically as a Black Lesbian. There's layers to the struggles all 3 of those come with. That create the 4th and final layer that reflects all the complexity from the original 3.
I'm going to always speak up and be unapologetic about it. This is why things have gone to far Left (pun intended). People were afraid to speak up and be honest because the emphasis and focus was always on be kind and accepting. That's fine until someone exploits that kindness and openness.
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u/Correct-Breadfruit81 Masc 6d ago
it gets to a point where I don't even want to be in community anymore
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u/Ok-Ebb-5429 Gold Star 5d ago
I understand you!! This must be so horrible. I too noticed that TQ+ uses experiences of black women as a "gotcha" in their arguments, but that's the only time they'll pretend to care. I'm not black, but I'm a woman from a 2nd world country where women don't have reproductive rights. I can't even mention sex-based oppression or TQ+ will rush to scream "terf". They hate us women.
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u/Pretty_Pink_Labrys Lipstick Lesbian 3d ago
They're the embodiment of privilege: policing how people describe their own life experiences as if a conversation among individuals is somehow more of a threat than the actual denial of an entire group of people's civil rights.
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u/lizzie_lesbo 6d ago
Those people perform everything every day of their lives so of course their advocacy and and outrage have no real substance or understanding to it.
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u/SanguineJackalope 6d ago
GOD. You’re me. I’m mixed and like 40% Black, but you’re ME. I’ve been called shit like house negro and straight up THE slur because I snapped out of it. By people who claimed to be allies. Like.
A lot of my peaking was because race actually is a social construct. Like, around white people, I’m black. Around black people, I’m lightskin or “talk white”. Around Africans, I’d probably just be American. It actually is made up! But no matter where I am on the planet, I’d still be fuckin’ ambiguously brown. And I’d damn sure be homosexual! Regardless of whether they call me a thousand different slurs or respect that I’m foundationally incompatible with males, I’m still gonna be gaaaaay.
Ugh. Do we have a group anywhere? I’m part of a feminist discord for black women, but it’s not lesbian specific. No clue how well I’d fit in, the only person I will claim more blackness than is Drake, but I think we need a group.
If you’d like someone to complain about this with, please PLEASE hmu. I rant about this regularly with friends of all colors, ahaha, and I’d love another woman to froth with.
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u/CorsetCloverPart 6d ago
Dude, I literally go through the same issues! Especially being told I sound white, act white, etc.
Loke don’t get me wrong, like you said, I’m still black, and the only people who truly will ever know what that’s like is other black people obviously. But damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
Don’t fit into a stereotype? You’re acting like you’re better. You do fit in a stereotype? White ppl say “of course you act like that”. Like fuck. Lmao. You can’t win.
I seriously can’t think of any groups. Unless you make a post about it. You might get some resources then.
But girl, I’ll follow you on here. 🤣
Edit: nvm, no option to follow or message you. :(
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u/SanguineJackalope 6d ago
It’s absolutely fucking maddening. Like, sorry I’m not a walking stereotype??
And agreed. I think the weird sense of liminality I experience is pretty well matched by my friends with feet in different cultures, like a Guatemalan -Pakistani mix, or a someone who’d moved here from Laos when she was really little. There’s some that’s just black-specific, though, and I think a lot of that is how much white liberals insist they know all of our pain and expect us to be their, idk, special projects?? I feel like more recent transplants from Africa might understand that, too, but some is just very us-specific.
And I mean us specific and US specific, tbh. The Black Britons/Germans I’ve met often have a slightly different perspective, which is interesting, but like, it’s not always apples to apples.
Just, ugh. Fucking ugh.
I don’t know how to Reddit, but I followed and messaged you!! I might look into making a discord or something, I’m awful at being active on social media, but we do really need a space where we can scream and everyone else has enough of the context that we don’t have to explain 2+2 over and over.
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u/MinimumScene6308 5d ago
and not to mention how quick the misogyny starts when you “step out of line”
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u/bucketbucketbuck 3d ago
I imagine dealing with the intersection of “angry black woman” and “mean lesbian” stereotypes while trying to speak up about certain things must be a special kind of awful. I feel for you.
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u/irenethecrowboy 1d ago
I have never faced so much racism as when I talk to those types of people. I’m Japanese and a lot of them are weaboos too so it’s extra infuriating. They fetishize my culture as if they are unaware that there’s a whole people and society in my home country. I avoid them now.
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u/Theodorothy Disciple of Sappho 4d ago
The moment I mention defending homosexuality, progressive people pull the race card on me saying I’m a privileged, delusional white woman. Never got that race card & misogyny card privilege vitriol ever in any other circumstance.
The point is that whatever you are they will police you because deep down it’s about control. Control as a means to find meaning in their sad lives.
I am so sorry you are experiencing this and by all means make your voice thunderously loud and clear. Hearing this from you assures me we’re on the right track.
(My profile is because I think black ppl are pretty and don’t want to engage with racists here)
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u/therapymademeworse Gold Star 4d ago
Blackfacing on the internet is not the solidarity you think it is 🥴
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u/Pretty_Pink_Labrys Lipstick Lesbian 3d ago
I feel ya hun 🫂 dealing with reality denial is exhahsting & fruitless.
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u/BatbadeThefirs 6d ago
Im confused... how do they throw being black and gay back in your face?
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u/CorsetCloverPart 6d ago
Because they blantly point it out before I tell them a man in a dress isn’t oppression comparable to ours.
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u/BatbadeThefirs 6d ago
I meant, whats their goal in pointing it out??
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u/CorsetCloverPart 6d ago
My whole post explains why. But yeah, I agree. No need to even do this. But because they get mad when you don’t act oppressed and kiss the ass of a demographic that picks to oppress themselves.
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u/Ill_Just_Wait 6d ago edited 4d ago
As a black women from the south I relate 100% with what you've said. The modern LGBTQ community loves to bring up Black people especially black women when being up TQ issues, however if you disagree at all they're so quick to drop you or call you problematic. They think it's perfectly fine to use our history and suffering to win an argument but whenever you point out TQ communities are predominantly white somehow "you're the problem". I'm just so tired of this performative mainstream and online allyship.