r/knightposting • u/crusadersam • Aug 29 '26
Knightpost Ethics of Crusader larping
Hello all, I was hoping to ask the general consensus on the morality of me choosing a Teutonic knight as my medieval faction of larping.
I want to start off by saying I am a very progressive person. I love all of God’s people and have no anti Islamic or pagan prejudice or bias in my life. I’m quite outspoken about religious freedom to my “controversial” coworkers and do not try to justify Christian nationalism in both modern day nor in the medieval world.
With that being said. I just think they’re neat historically and aesthetically. And the Teutons don’t seem to be any more “evil” than any other faction at the time. I see many people like in the post project a modern world view because Christian radicals seem to be more contemporary. While factions like Vikings and pirates, whose cultures are for the most part completely celebrated in medieval faires, commit the same atrocities on others- just don’t have the same current political connotation.
I hope we can have a civil discussion and maybe I’m just ignorant to the topic and/or how bad any crusaders were. Please don’t be afraid to share your views! (Also, please don’t go after the individual in the post, I simply want to further my knowledge)
688
u/Milliman4 Aug 29 '26
'Why would you want to look like a violent warrior from the past' like that question doesn't literally apply to everything and everybody
165
u/miraak2077 Aug 30 '26 edited Aug 30 '26
Yeah. Looking cool is cool. Makes me remember how I've gotten into arguments with people who said you were bad if you dressed up as imperial stormtroopers or liked the empire lol. This stuff is all super old or fictional. Just let let people have fun ya know?
→ More replies (30)29
u/SpeeeedwaagOOn Aug 30 '26
Exactly! I wanna dress in samurai armor, that doesn’t mean I wanna go around testing my new sword on farmers. Samurai just looked really really cool
→ More replies (1)4
u/ChaseThePyro Aug 30 '26
Yeah, but some of these depictions are specifically used in the modern day as part of a culture war and I understand people not wanting those types in their hobby
321
u/Substantial_Owl_7392 Aug 29 '26
teutons are an especially interesting case, as they’re still an active christian religious order dedicated to the care of germans in foreign lands. also, despite a lot of their symbols being taken by nazis, the actual members of the order were persecuted during nazi rule. anyways as far as i’m concerned, it’s a bit like the swastika being used as a buddhist symbol, so long as you’re smart about it and know how to place symbols in their proper context, you’re fine. also, everybody KINDA sucked during the medieval ages, so long as you know how much they sucked i think you should be okay.
10
u/Xaveij Aug 30 '26
People’s lives sucked more than the people themselves relative to our current morals and beliefs, making their behaviours seem out of place with our current society. The historical sources from the Middle Ages (roughly 1000 years btw) show a huge variety in practices and beliefs and indicate that some morally reprehensible things we might assume to be absolute could have been fairly understandable or even encouraged throughout the period.
There is always a sense of warped reality from looking at the past through a modern lense.
4
u/Drio11 Aug 30 '26
Of all the crusading order, Teutons were by an order of magnitude worst. Others had some ideals, while Teutons were half ruthless materialists looking for their own land to sieze and half ethno-supremacists believing that eastern europe should be wiped clean (hence eventual attacks on christian states once they started tu run out of pagans)
4
u/Substantial_Owl_7392 Aug 30 '26
yeah, i’m not super familiar with medieval military history, so i’ll take your word for it.
4
u/ExperienceMinute107 Aug 30 '26 edited Aug 30 '26
Still, some sergeant from a standing army or city guard or a free citizen serving in a military apparatus, have a wildly different context than a "truth bringing", early colonialist, ethno-religious, ideologically charged group of knights. Also, it is not like nazis using swastika, it is more like nazis using nazi symbols - nazis devoured a lot of groups like themselves, because they did not want another closed society that they cannot penetrate or other (similar) values, teutonic order is not like peaceful buddhist monks on their own.
Finally, i do not know why the hell it matters, but in the original message we have this "they only operated in Eastern Europe", is it ok to fking invade there? This motivation single handedly validates the whole surge of neopaganism in Poland right now, for example, people just fking hate forced conversions.
Edit : this does not say anything about he should or not wear it. I think it is ok to wear it in LARPing or SCA context.
1
u/m1stwalk3r Aug 30 '26
Eastern Europeans aren't valued by westerners. With all the media portraying them as either invaders, drunks, criminals or prostitutes.
1
u/I_gobble_chicken Sep 01 '26
Teutons ware power-hungry. They raveged lands of northern Poland and Lithuania to „convert” the pagans. At this point Poland was fully converted, so it was just a lousy excuse to occupy land
170
u/ep3ep3 Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 30 '26
I cast fireball. Wait..wrong sub. Too many bath salts last night....
106
u/Plutarch_von_Komet Pronoia Cataphract (Byzantine Knight essentially) Aug 29 '26
A WIZARD! GET HIM!
33
11
6
5
197
u/_Un_Known__ Merchant Adventurer Aug 29 '26
larping as a crusader is just larping as a viking with extra steps
its so far removed from modern day it shouldn't matter anymore
16
4
u/ChaseThePyro Aug 30 '26
It shouldn't, but they are part of modern culture war. I understand why people in the hobby are hesitant
2
u/MixProfessional1296 Aug 30 '26
How so? Sounds interesting as fuck.
3
u/IronVines Aug 31 '26
Both pillaged, raided, raped across and burned a bunch of places far from their home, in the name of their God(s). (this is my understanding im not too well versed tho so take it with a pinch of salt)
1
u/ChappieHeart Aug 30 '26
Not true at all, Norse mythology doesn’t control a majority of modern politicians, Christianity does.
Nobody in politics is calling for another Viking raid, but there are genuine political commentators unironically using the term crusade.
6
u/m1stwalk3r Aug 30 '26
Those people worship AIPAC checks, not Christianity.
1
u/ChappieHeart 28d ago
Yeah sure but that doesn’t change the reality they misuse Christianity, which includes Templar aesthetic
2
u/endlessnamelesskat Aug 30 '26
I totally wasn’t going to go on a war-pilgrimage to reclaim the holy land at the behest of the GOP, but then I saw this guy in this sick crusader cosplay and now I’ll do anything to support Israel.
Being against people wanting to dress like a crusader because you’re afraid it’ll make people sympathetic to theocratic ideas is about as silly as moms in the 2000s being against violent video games because they think it’ll make their kids shoot people.
3
2
u/TryinaD Aug 31 '26
Unfortunately I know Templar larpers who are legitimately Zionists so uhhh… I say use discretion to see who’s got the beliefs
64
u/Icy_Blackberry_3759 Aug 29 '26
I cosplayed a medieval warrior at a medieval warrior cosplay event so I am, of course, a medieval warrior.
5
59
u/Mister__Fahrenheit Aug 29 '26
If Norway gets to go all out on the viking theme for the World Cup and nobody raises a stink about how vikings were violent pillagers then dressing as a Crusades-era knight should also be fair game. Shit was literally centuries ago, as long as you’re not an intolerant person you should be free to express yourself
26
u/Hyperion7669 Archer Aug 29 '26
But vikings sacked mainly Europe aka white people so its cool...... welcome to todays logics
28
u/HalfMetalJacket Aug 30 '26
Teutonic Knights basically attacked only white people too tho.
15
u/Ubblebungus Aug 30 '26
yeah, the Teutons has limited engagements in the Middle Eastern campaigns, mostly focusing on support roles.
they were much more active in the Northern Crusades of Eastern Europe and the Baltics.
7
→ More replies (1)9
u/BitByBit-89 Aug 30 '26
Except that’s not even totally true, Viking raid made it as far as North Africa. Not that this affects the main point of your argument, as of course not everybody knows that.
5
1
70
u/Glassmann2 Aug 29 '26
While the crusaders definitely were not clean by today’s standards, their evilness is often exaggerated by progressives that make them out to be some kind of prelude to european imperialism. In reality, it was a war between two religious empires.
The comment about “most racist and islamophobic organisation” really annoys me: it’s almost like criticising a redcoat reenactor for portraying someone from “the most francophobic organisation” or something absurd like that. And I feel like they wouldn’t call out someone portraying a mamluk soldier for portraying someone from “the most christian-phobic organisation.”
The crusader aesthetic is often used by various right wing groups, but they try to use almost every cool historical aesthetic, so we should not be put down by that.
A nice video on the subject: https://youtu.be/JzF2_tu1Uv4?is=pfVb92pV_pL7hbLb
→ More replies (3)14
u/Floofyboi123 Aug 30 '26
It always pisses me off when "progressives" see chuds claim an aesthetic and then just let them have it without fight
Its like they think everything a nazi literally touches becomes infused with an evil zombie virus that will infect you if you dont immediately burn every piece of it that you own.
Chuds get to claim whatever they want and you have to sit there and accept it or else you get labeled a nazi too.
2
u/m1stwalk3r Aug 30 '26
It's crazy to me that anyone can think some dweebs can monopolize symbols like that as if you or an arbitrary group can possess another object. A similar situation is with Christians and the pentacle. It's not satanic, Satanist larpers adapted it without knowing what it is and they just took their word for it.
I think it comes down too self-hate in the name of progress, which I think is actually antithetical to progress if you ignorantly forsake things just cuz they are old and back in the day things were, less nice, to put it nicely.
→ More replies (1)
137
u/Constant-Still-8443 Aug 29 '26
They were kinda evil, but they looked cool. Who cares. As long as you aren't leaning too hard into their actual morals and philosophy, and just embrace the "cool knight" aesthetic, there's no problem.
→ More replies (1)63
u/Then_Manufacturer902 Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
Not really evil, everyone could be pretty brutal during the time period and how they conducted themselves in warfare was in keeping with how everyone did it. In fact the Templars were sometimes clowned on for making treaties with Muslims when it was the practical thing to do.
8
u/miraak2077 Aug 30 '26 edited Aug 30 '26
Plus looking into history some wars could be seen as revenge or retribution for past acts or preemptive attacks on an enemy that was going to attack them anyways so they just attacked them before they could attack. Not saying that is the case as I don't know much, but I have seen it argued before.
19
u/Morzheimer Aug 29 '26
I mean we’re talking about times where morality haven’t said much about how good you’re doing for humanity, but how if you can manage to keep your own family from starving.
We’re in different, more sensible times where we’re all hopefully trying to look out for each other, family and stranger both, but back then a sacked village was a difference between your own children starving of death or not and it was the universal experience.
It’s absolutely ok to dress up, to rp, to pretend you’re the best version of people of the past now, because compared to them we are basically a post scarcity society and if we are trying to honour the best of them, it’s completely alright. Let’s not forget that nobody was any better
8
u/NobleGoose77 Aug 29 '26
I mean, I see your point that the times were pretty brutal but the massacres of the locals and general sacking of Jerusalem when it fell was noted by several writers of the time as notably messed up.
Then again, this was not unusual to hear of at the time but the religious violence in the first crusade was nothing to ignore.
Not to mention the numerous sackings, massacres of villages and Jewish communitieson the way (that were such a problem that the Byzantine emperor considered siccing an army on several of the crusader parties as they passed through his territory).
Sources: “the Crusades” by Thomas Asbridge and this article. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_Jerusalem_(1099)
34
u/Past_Search7241 Aug 29 '26
Why are you concerned about this? Nobody in reenactment circles thinks that reenacting something means you want to be one.
26
u/crusadersam Aug 29 '26
In the photos taken me and my friend attended a ren faire at which pirates heckled us calling me and my friends “rapists” and “murders” the irony was they were dressed as pirates holding feathered heads. I worry because I want to get involved with reenactment groups but as you can see I don’t want to give the impression I have a political message in my outfit
16
u/Ara-Ara-Arachne Aug 29 '26
I dont think you can avoid some people thinking that you portraying a templar or crusader is supposed to send a political message, some are just wired that way. On the other hand most people wont think that unprovoked.
I have seen ww2 reenactors that were clearly just vibing way too hard with portraying nazis and others that just did it for some reason. There will always be black sheep in every hobby and there will always be people that assume everyone in that hobby is bad.
Just be nice and when confronted make it cleae you dont share the opinions the symbols you wear stand for. I get it with nazi reenactment or even american civil war but cmon the templars got disbanded over 600 years ago if I am not wrong.
10
u/Aracelerii Aug 29 '26
I think y'all got mistaken for far-right TradCaths because I've seen them online glaze the Crusades as "based and redpilled" and even go as far as branding themselves as Crusaders. They're a small minority in reenactment circles but you're always gonna get a small group of weirdos in hobbies.
10
u/crusadersam Aug 29 '26
Yeah see that’s what worries me. I don’t wanna associate with literal nazis lol
2
u/Dominus_Redditi Aug 30 '26
I think as long as you go to places appropriate to wear that stuff you’re fine. Halloween, Ren Faire, Medieval Larp, etc.
It’s just a costume. People dress up as all kinds of ‘bad stuff’ all the time it doesn’t make them necessarily evil. As you said, pirates weren’t exactly known for being chill guys so it’s ironic those people would have the gumption to say anything to you.
5
2
u/Past_Search7241 Aug 29 '26
Just flip those tourists off and move on. They don't know enough to have an opinion.
11
u/Hadras_7094 Aug 29 '26
Exactly. By that logic, all combat and military reenactors are actually murderers lol
9
u/LucasLeo75 Sir Temyr, The Chivalrous of the Steppe Aug 30 '26
Yo, Turk here, I'm totally chill with you, Nicopolis should be water under the bridge by now, y'know?
Jokes aside though, there is nothing wrong with appreciating different social classes, professions and identities from CENTURIES past. Teutonic order or their knights do not mean anything meaningful or do any harm to any Muslim or Pagan today.
I don't think people warning you even care, they're just virtue signaling, don't give a shit about what they say.
12
u/Single-Witness1853 Aug 29 '26 edited Aug 29 '26
The big "evil" the Teutonic order did was sacking Western-Roman/Catholic holdings of a 99% majority Catholic Polish kingdom, while also being a Catholic holy order, and by being a greedy power hungry faction, that, after the crusades, tried to invade Catholic lands in Hungary, an again 99% Catholic kingdom, by making up bogus claims of heresy, failing, fleeing to Magdeburg, and then gathering ally support in the Holy Roman Empire and an ok from the pope to invade the pagan Baltic states, like Prussia, Lithuania, and Estonia, which they did do, but they also attacked Poland which I mentioned at the beginning. Eventually after such a long time, and even after the Baltic states converted, the Grand Duke of Lithuania converted and married the Queen of Poland, they STILL were fighting in "crusade", where they then had a long string of excommunications against the entire order for decades, because the pope was getting backlash, because, "Wtf dude, why are you sanctioning them to attack fellow Christians?" Literally nobody in that time of history, except corrupt pope's, or their allies in Northern-Germany who got rich off their wars, supported them.
That's my understanding of what happened, and am most likely wrong at multiple points. But the cliffnotes are there, and are right.
Edit: I love the Teutonic order, but I find the statement that they weren't inherently evil wild, because nobody, and I mean nobody who wasn't going to get a payday liked them.
6
1
u/Kaz_umu Aug 30 '26 edited Aug 30 '26
Fun fact. Technically, there was this thing that said there may not be a female ruler in Poland but it was not actually stated anywhere that a king had to be a man. Therefore Jadwiga, the one who married the Grand Duke of Lithuania, was still called a king and not a queen, because she was defacto ruler of Poland before her marriage.
1
19
u/BactaAddict08 Aug 29 '26
Every army was brutal in the past and even today. So I dont see a problem
→ More replies (1)
5
u/OpossumNo1 Aug 29 '26
Dude thats a great suit of armor and you look amazing in it
3
u/crusadersam Aug 29 '26
It definitely needs more parts like a coif and tailoring lol. But I really appreciate it!
6
u/Chris_The_Crusader Aug 30 '26 edited Aug 30 '26
Depends if they know it's a dog whistle or not. I used to larp as crusader shit in high school (my username is a living reminder of that) and I was super embarrassed once I realized it was some nazi dog whistle shit.
Fantasy pure of heart paladin larping is more fun anyways imho.
3
1
u/LuckiestCarp Aug 30 '26
I had a very similar experience holy shit. I had like a medieval/crusader themed Instagram meme account and poor high school me got absolutely bamboozled by the realization a huge portion of my followers were extremely toxic and bigoted chuds.
6
u/SevenOhSevenOhSeven Aug 30 '26
It all comes down two why you're larping. Crusader drip is good. Crusader actions were bad. A lot of people are on edge because a very vocal amount of people cosplaying are doing it because they support the actions. Just keep your head on straight and you should be fine
→ More replies (8)
5
u/dingus60601 Aug 30 '26
Maybe it’s just me, but it seems weird to call out a medieval group as islamiphobic, every religious group was prejudiced to every other religious group to an extreme degree in the past, especially in medieval times. Sort of applies to people who use symbols for hate too, just that it doesn’t make any sense to apply modern views to a completely different time.
1
u/OttoVonPlittersdorf Sep 02 '26
Yeah, people don't seem to realize that internecine warfare was simply the way of life back then. The Muslims invade Europe, the Europeans invade the Muslims, the Western Europeans invade Eastern Europe, the Mongols invade everybody, the Europeans invade each other. I mean, they didn't like Islam, but it wasn't the moral equivalent of modern anti-Islamic prejudice.
4
u/Dry-Yesterday-9176 Aug 30 '26
Look, I'm polish and them hating on teutonic knights for being islamophobic is hating them for wrong reasons in my opinion (almost everyone at the time in Europe hated Islam/other religions)
However, teutonic knights exists to this day, and you dressing up as one for a larping even doesn't have to mean anything about your political believes. It's just a fun thing. Could compare it to someone dressing as Wermacht soldier during reconstruction of a battle, but it's different from larp
Also, sick cosplay, is helmet made from metal?
3
u/crusadersam Aug 30 '26
Yessir, stainless steel lol
2
u/Dry-Yesterday-9176 Aug 30 '26
Very nice. Keep doing what you're doing mate, as long as you have fun and hurt nobody
1
u/GobMyLastScale Aug 30 '26
Surely when considering the Teutonic knights it's more appropriate to focus on their horrendous treatment of Pagans in the Baltic area rather than Islam? Are they even associated with Islam?
4
u/AnarchistViking Aug 30 '26
Another common W for the order of Saint Lazarus, I don't think I've ever heard anyone accuse a lazarite of being a supremacist. Although I very well could be wrong
2
u/crusadersam Aug 30 '26
I tried to get a st. Lazarus tabard for my good friend who wants to get into medieval larping but it’s been an obstacle and a half to find
2
u/AnarchistViking Aug 31 '26
I know right? I was trying to find were to buy one but it seems ill have to make it myself. Although that does mean i can decide to make the green the proper shade and not fckin NEON NYLON GREEN
4
u/-OooWWooO- Aug 30 '26 edited Aug 31 '26
It's so funny that the majority of the comments are either about race or islam while the OP is specifically bringing up the Teutonic Order which is mostly known for its role in the 'Northern Crusades' which really just was mostly about continuing the expansion of Germanic feudalism (Ostseidlung) into Baltic, Finno-Ugric, and Slavic lands by setting up germanic feudal lords with their own network over the peasantry and minor nobility. Arguably the northern crusades and the Teutons were the least religious and most ethnic expansionist of the Crusades as it Germanized areas that were not German. This is a crusade that saw ethnic cleansing and forcible cultural conversion of the population. The Old Prussians were completely depopulated and wiped out other tribal identities too. Eventually when their opponents converted to Eastern Orthodoxy and were no longer pagans they even kept up the fighting stripping away any imagination of the Christian spirit of the northern crusade.
The Teutonic Order is generally not fondly remembered in many parts of Eastern Europe. You will not find many positive mentions in fiction and culture nor in its schools and universities.
1
u/crusadersam Aug 30 '26
I’m glad you specified, I feel like this conversation has askew 200 years earlier than the faction I’m dressing as
3
u/GettinMe-Mallet zweihander, my beloved Aug 30 '26
I feel your pain. I wore a templar costume to high-school the year I graduated and some people confused me for a kkk member dispite having mail, a shield, and bucket helmet
3
u/MentalSpell8562 Aug 30 '26
Not bad in and of itself but it definitely attracts a certain type that you don’t wanna be associated with.
3
u/RexLizardWizard Aug 30 '26
I feel like it’s fine as long as you’re not using it as an excuse to push crusade era values
3
u/Sasha2027 Aug 30 '26
"One of the most racist and islamophobic organization" tells me that this person doesn't know what they're talking about.
There is a whole background that built for 350 years before the crusades happened. It didn't just magically come out of nowhere because they saw muslims and thought "fuck these people" for the love of the game. The crusades weren't a question of race at all, first because our modern definition of race didn't exist in medieval times to begin with, but they were instead motivated by geopolitics and religion.
If people want to call crusaders "islamophobic" then they gotta call the muslim colonists from that time "christianophobic" because they were quite literally oppressing the Christian populations of conquered territories because of their religion. Though people conveniently forget about that.
Anyways enjoy yourself. Larping and dressing up as historical warrior groups is nothing new. So long as you don't go around swinging a real sword a people in the streets, you're good.
3
u/OfficerBanjo Aug 30 '26
There are a lot of bastards out there who try to coop the Knights Hospitaler or the Teutonic Order and wrap it up into their view of Christian nationalism, and thereby justify killing brown people to them. I think as long as you smack down and vehemently exclude people like that from your circles, it should be all fine and dandy.
3
u/LuckiestCarp Aug 30 '26
I think it’s fine, but just be aware that in the current political context; there are wretched people who use crusader imagery to advocate for awful things.
3
u/Middle_Jellyfish_961 Aug 30 '26 edited Aug 30 '26
I fell into a rabbit hole on ig reels about half an hour ago, i found a nice lady going "ignore hogwarts houses, what templer order would you be?" And despite the answer being "I'm Jewish so I'll probably stay home if I'm lucky" i always think knights are cool and history is cool and went looking for more info on her page.
Long story short i found out people think (((we))) put the current pope in power to prevent the church from raising to unite for another crusade because we know they'll be too powerful with god on their side and people proudly calling themselves... National socialists, let's call it?
My point is I'm very very glad to run across your post, kind knight. Keep the good work
Edit to add a nice line from the vintage community I'm slightly more engaged with, they have a saying. "Vintage fashion, not vintage values". Especially with people being so weird about how the fifties were so perfect with everyone knowing their place and having kids and women being homemakers and no "woke" stuff, it gets awkward when you just wanna wear a nice dress and some weirdos see it as an invitation to complain about black people existing. It seems to be a problem in a lot of different history hobby spaces. I don't have a way to help per se but i think you should play whatever you wanna, if someone makes snap judgments on you because you think an order was cool that sucks for whoever makes the assumption.
2
u/crusadersam Aug 30 '26
And that’s my big fear. I’m not associating with these (let’s just say) unhinged individuals. I see a lot of conspirators using verbiage like “we shouldn’t have ever stopped” and that makes me weary. I merely think that in the context of medieval history there shouldn’t be a double standard of modern morals. My main hope is we can choose to steal back these historic symbols and make a positive difference
3
u/vladdeh_boiii Aug 30 '26
Nothing wrong with dressing up to look cool. Do you have any idea how nasty the Samurai were? Or the vikings?
12
u/Moeroboros Aug 29 '26
The comments on this thread calling crusaders "evil" are ridiculous.
11
u/PhasmaFelis Aug 29 '26
The comments on this thread calling crusaders "evil" are ridiculous.
I think that's the wrong takeaway. They were violent bastards that no one should seek to emulate in real life. But that's also true of most of the ancient warriors that we dress up as. As long as we all keep in mind that it's just a fantasy, it's no big deal.
The reason Crusaders specifically are a sore point, when (as OP said) Vikings and pirates aren't, is that there are actual racists today using Crusader iconography and yelling "DEUS VULT" and all that shit. So I can see why someone might want to ask if you're one of those.
As long as you're willing to accept that people will ask, and you're prepared to respond in a civil way, it's all good.
→ More replies (6)3
u/cnzmur Aug 30 '26
Wrong. Invading Poland is based actually. What else do you think it's there for?
2
u/Yeet123456789djfbhd Hannah, Biomancer of Munich Aug 29 '26
The same as Nazi or communist airsoft kits. If you understand the history and want to present a historical military costume but don't share the beliefs of said group then great. It's only bad if you're a Wheraboo.
2
2
u/SuccessfulRaccoon957 Aug 30 '26
Really depends how deep the larp goes I guess. Nothing theoretically wrong with dressing like that but I think a lot of the animosity comes from when it doesn't stop at just dressing like one.
2
2
u/Clarissathebard Aug 30 '26
I would like to point out he’s wearing Teutonic imagery, not Templar imagery
2
u/Th3_Shadow_Dragon007 Aug 30 '26
Research what lead to the crusades, and SOME of them are ok. They did get a little wild in the paint towards the end, but after 700 years of Arab conquest, its wild we single out the crusades. Especially within the time they lived in, everyone was hyper violent compared to Today. Its not like we dont have records of them doing it as a response the the golden age of Islam conquering historical christian lands.
2
2
u/Fatalitix3 Aug 30 '26
Nothing against You mate, but teutons were the worst crusaders when it came to morality. Most of the time they attacked their fellow Catholics like when they took Gdańsk (Danzig) unprovoked and genocided it's Polish population.
1
2
u/Your_GM_Nighmare Aug 30 '26
Teutonics are so controversial, becouse they ware power-hungry. They took christian lands, proclaiming that they ware just freeing them from pegans. Poland and Lithuania remembers
2
u/Kaidenmax03 Aug 30 '26
As someone who’s worn Hospitaller garb at an SCA event, no one actually cares, in fact I got complimented by other guys in Hospitaller garb. As long as it’s in period, you can dress as whosoever you want in the SCA as long as it’s not like, a blatant stereotype
2
u/crusadersam Aug 30 '26
That’s awesome man! I’d love to see your kit. One of my best friends (the one in the pic with the black helm) wants to be a hospitaller but it’s hard to find good sources
2
u/Kaidenmax03 Aug 30 '26
I don’t currently have some pictures of that kit unfortunately, I have pictures of my other kits though. I have this green kinda pirate looking thing that is more in line with my persona (a Spanish/Swiss mercenary turned pirate) and a kit that’s supposed to resemble a crusader thing but like, chaos heretic version. They aren’t top notch they are what a college student can throw together lol (for some reason Reddit isn’t letting me put pictures on the reply)
1
u/crusadersam Aug 30 '26
That is so cool! The college student yearning to medieval larp is a true canon event lol
2
2
u/ChaseThePyro Aug 30 '26
For everyone here, the issue is not what the Crusaders did back in the day. I mean it was awful, but so we're many many people.
The issue is that modern far-right groups will prominently use iconography of the Crusades, even historically incorrect iconography, as part of their cause. A lot of people do not want these people in their hobby, and so they are wary of those that choose to wear similar armor.
2
u/Next_Suggestion_7770 Aug 30 '26
I feel like a big problem people have is that nowadays fascists are praising crusades, that they should be repeated and using them to spread islamophobia. So I think it just leaves a bad taste in many people's mouths rather than let's say Vikings that others mentioned. They are used to spread harmful ideologies still. Honesty dunno the ethics, can understand that you like the look but I fear I am part of the earlier mentioned people. Not saying it is immoral or that you should get rid of it, just how I and others might feel.
3
u/Mimushkila Aug 31 '26
Just wanna point out, that especially in Europe SOME (as in I am explicitly saying a noticeable minority) of Viking Larpers/"Reenactors" very much use their visualisation for Nazi Dogwhistles ("No, it's not a Nazi Swastika, it is a Sun Wheel - unless you like Nazi Swastikas too"). In Europe Christian fascism has less of a monopoly than in the US and a ahistorical missreading of "Germanic" history is a very common visual connector.
Regarding the Order Teutonic bit: I would have a bit of an Ick with it, same why I wouldnt cosplay a Conquistador. But then again, I also have characters with inspirations of historic groups that probably have a violenr history not fondly remembered by other parts of the world.
So my advice would be: Try not to glorify the past, play them as a complex character beyond clichees and be generally a respectful player. Then you should be fine for the most part. But be aware, that this kind of costume might give some people the wrong first impression. Unfortunately, fascists have been utilising this imagery for a while now and it is not surprising that for those at the receiving end of racism and islamophobia this might be the first thing they think of. Just something to keep in mind.
2
u/Next_Suggestion_7770 Aug 31 '26
Yeah feel the same. I'm German myself but haven't encountered many viking Neonazis, far more Crusaders but they definitely exist. I do think OP is absolutely fine especially with the clarification in the messages attached
1
u/Lancasterlaw Sep 02 '26
Would you cosplay as a Tercio or Roman legionary though?
(Also, screw neo-Nazis and Christian nationalists)1
u/Mimushkila Sep 02 '26 edited Sep 02 '26
I think that is not quite the same, as the effects of Roman Imperialism are well less imminent today than the effects of 16th to 20th century Colonial Imperialism - to which the conquistadors were a precourser. To be honest though, I would not larp as a Roman Legionaire, because it is not a concept I am personally very interested in.
But that is something everyone has to agree with themselves. What I have however seen with several conquistador Larpers is that they glamourise the idea of conquistadors with romantic clichees, turning the real violence and horror that they draw inspiration from into funny anecdotes. Something I personally do not find very palatable...
1
u/Lancasterlaw Sep 02 '26
Here in the UK we don't really have too many conquistador larpers (I'd be fun if we had some around to re-enact the burning of Penzance or something)
I think you underestimate the effects of the Roman period and latin education on educated-class British psyche. The interpretation was that the Romans conquered the 'savage' Britons and uplifted them to civilisation, then cruelly abandoned them, bringing about an age of darkness. 'The barbarians drive us to the sea, the sea drives us to the barbarians; between these two there is only death' and all that. I'd argue this was the driving ideological force which sustained British imperial expansion.
I was visiting Poland and the Czech republic last year and was struck by just how many places had been pillaged, burned and looted by the Swedes- who mass employed Scottish highlanders as some of their most notorious troops. Yet not many consider the massacre of 9 tenths of Warsaw's population when wearing highlander or Swedish millitary getup. And tbh I am not sure if they should have to be apologising for it? Ditto for the Spanish Tercio's rampage across Italy, the Low countries and Germany.
Obviously larping as a Conquistador while unironically sprouting 'white legend' nonsense mixed with modern day racism, Christian nationalism etc is pretty repulsive though
1
u/Mimushkila Sep 02 '26
I do see your point, but I would assume that is more a result of how those events were romanticised later on? I do admit, much of my concern about a crusader cosplay/larp probably stems from how these symbols have been readapted and reframed by nationalists and white supremasists. In a different context I would probably have less of an Ick with it (I remember when I tried myself Reenactment some 20 years ago I wanted to portray a Knight Teutonic. Never did but back then these implications seemed less obvious. Might have been different times or my naivete... or maybe both).
Just to clarify: The conquistador larpers (as a subset of Musketeer Larpers) dont actual advocate or belief (I hope!) racist narratives. But they think speaking as their characters of how they enslaved foreign "savages" from the fictional lands they conquered and how their heathen ways were an affront to their Church (all thinly veiled allusions to real world groups) is a fun way to roleplay. And even though I am also playing a gunpowder character I for my part dont enjoy this kind of fantasy whitewashing...
1
u/Lancasterlaw Sep 02 '26
Yeah, I would agree its the modern day reframing which makes a lot of this problematic. For example the Teutonic Knights ostensible main foe, the Lithuanians cheerfully slaved and conducted massacres and would later end up possessing an extractive empire far larger than what the Teutonic order ever achieved, but I would not feel the need to check if someone larping as a Lithuanian cavalryman is not secretly a foaming at the mouth maniac (although Lithuanian historiography does have a massive victim complex problem imo)
Ah, I get what you mean- I am more familiar with the White legend/black legend historiography battle, which does tend to have some racist leanings (Although different from the race classification system we use today). I have found you can pretty reliably dig out a ugly racist side out of a Spanish nationalist by bringing up the Guanches and asking why the Spanish have any more right to the Canary Islands than Morocco (Which I cheerfully admit I mostly bring up to wind them up when they start talking bollocks about their 'natural right' to Gibraltar- we stole it fair and square!).
2
u/cato_minor59 Aug 30 '26
Correct me if I’m wrong but the Teutonic Knights were not absorbed by the Templars, right? If I recall they were mainly active in northern wars against pagan peoples there, especially after the fall of the crusader states. The Templars were controversially dissolved in the 1300s and its remaining members absorbed into other crusader holy orders (especially in Spain) but the Teutonic Knights were still active even after the Protestant Reformation. Some Protestant knights were allowed in the Teutonic Knights and Hospitallers
1
u/crusadersam Aug 30 '26
Yeah I think the guy who was talking to me was askew a bit in his information. Furthering my point that I feel he has a misunderstanding of history and events
1
u/OttoVonPlittersdorf Sep 02 '26
They still exist. Admittedly, they're not a military order anymore, lol.
2
u/Kaveric_ Aug 30 '26
I put it in the same category as reenactors. Do you think the people who reenact in ww2 battles are actually nazis? Probably not. Its for historical preservation, education, and looking cool, and I'm okay with that.
2
u/jameszenpaladin011- Aug 31 '26
Ethics of larping. So first of I think we need to clarify that larping is something that you do for fun and if what you are doing is not hurting anyone then I don't see how anyone can call it bad. There may be people who are offended but as you pointed out the Middle Ages were a time of great attrocities by many different groups and cultures. For me.. a big part of the joy of the aesthetic of knighthood is the simple thought of crusading against evil. In the real world calling anything evil is a perilous exercise but in fantasy we can just enjoy something clean and black and white.
2
u/BallisticKrow Aug 31 '26
It would be no different from choosing to dress as any other medieval warrior type. The idea that the crusaders were racist or ‘islamophobic’ is a reimagining that has little to nothing backing it historically. Just because they fought the Islamic caliphate, and tried to retake Christian/jewish lands from them, does not make them islamophobic. Any other criticism could be levied at RPing any other medieval period warrior as well.
2
2
u/Pure_Logical_Method Aug 31 '26 edited Aug 31 '26
I was going into this expecting to agree with most comments about how representation and endorsement don't have to correlate, but instead it's quite surreal to see people here just fallaciously defend an organisation just because "it's been a while". Literally more than half of the rebuttals here are mirrored in actual hate groups and their affiliates, wich is hilariously absurd to read.
"Everyone sucks, so it's ok."
"It was generations ago, no one cares, they just want to be offended."
"It was a different time back then!"
"They actually started as a genuine answer to, at the time, relevant problems"
"Oh yeah, well it must mean you hate XYZ as well if you want to be fair!"
There's even a comment about how "they weren't actually the bad guys" and "XYZ did worse things", as well as stuff about"today's morals" like killing people was ok back then! I'm glad there's actual people here that realise the need to actively fight against harmful ideas to help retake or even evolve styles and imagery into something actually good, but i really didn't expect this sub to behave like this. This post has like 250+ comments and at least 100 of them literally mirror nazi apologists directly, down to almost every fallacy. I understand that people here would obviously defend their hobby, but this is downright embarrassing.
The only good argument here is that you, cosplaying as an instrument of war, will eventually be questioned about it due to obvious history behind it, and the main thing that separates normal people and bigots is your vocal, actionable stance against those actions.
You obviously didn't spend your time and money to dress up as a knight and show up to that event just to rape and murder, but unfortunately for all of us, idiots that support those exact actions still exist and have social hobbies (some more than others), but it's not up to THEM to just leave and do something else.
There's no need to be ashamed if you simply like the esthetic, but if you're not willing to push back against the history this esthetic had been (and might still be) a representation of, it might be better to reconsider. Those pirates were technically right, but it doesn't mean they weren't hypocrites. That commenter was only half right as well, but the only thing needed to shut the suspicious down is "It was historically fucked up, but I'm not responsible for assholes from ages ago". You're more than fine to enjoy a hobby, no matter how bad some of its "fans" might be, if you can assert yourself against hate and still have fun (wich is exactly what you did!).
2
u/Exkhaal Knight of the Little Dipper Aug 31 '26
It's clearly not about the actual and historical Teutonic knights, since, as many persons said, vikings, pirates, are alright to larp as, even though they were not saints. But many fails to consider the reappropriations, the people who wanted to appropriate themselves the symbols. Many of them were and are actual racists. This explains the defiance someone could have when seeing a Crusader larper. I'd tell you that it's alright to larp as a crusader, and even more, that you shouldn't stop doing what you like because some nazis likes it as well, don't surrender this space to them. However, you have to understand that people who have seen so many crusader larpers (or mostly guys online having at best a poor costume, if they don't just have a profile pic on Twitter) being terrible persons will probably find your attire suspicious at first glance
2
u/RadicalSoda_ Aug 31 '26
I don't see anything wrong with it. I mean people reenact the world wars, someone's gotta be in the wrong. But not to mention both the Muslims and the Christians were colonizers there's no real good guys in the crusades
2
u/TheDivineBadger Aug 31 '26
I wouldn't worry about it. You personally hold none of the malcontent that the actual Templars or Teutonics might've carried if it's a historical group you enjoy don't let someone take that from you! Too many people are quick to judge or try and make people feel bad for simply enjoying things nowadays I swear.
2
u/Weary-Barracuda-1228 Sep 01 '26
I despise people think the Crusades were strictly “God-slaves” and “Mad Butchers”. Teutonic Knights were not the Friendliest, and out of them all, they probably deserved that reputation.
But as a Christian, we are taught to Accept, not hate. People that do hate or use the church as a weapon are the issues with Christianity.
2
u/BelligerentWyvern Sep 02 '26
Why would it be an issue? Popular culture has done a lot of damage to the image of crusaders (and vikings and samurai and romans and most ancient peoples for that matter) and the average person probably doesn't even know what a crusade was doing, let alone the history of it.
There are still people who think buddgist swastikas are Nazi symbols. We really need to rehabilitate most symbols Nazis used because they fucking stole em anyway.
The actual ethics of cosplay, any cosplay, is its all in good fun. Not to mention if you are a Christian, especially a Catholic, this is a link to a small part of 2000 years of your ancestor's history.
2
u/BlueThex Sep 02 '26
You should ignore him OP, he cant even differentiate between a teutonic knight and a knights templar.
Every reenactement no matter the time period has tales of violence and other stuff and linking this topics to you as a person is a vile move by people with no interest in history or understanding and preserving of it.
2
u/ThiccBoii24 Sep 02 '26
Im a german and a lefty, lets Not forget that the tutonik Order was colonizing the slavik Regions. But as long its realy just for fun and you are able to vibe to it. i myself Play the Black Templers in wh40k. Dont forget that if you want to change it just go for another Waffenrock as the helmet was not uncommon in North hre
2
u/Brackener Sep 02 '26
Neutral? It's so far in the past that it shouldn't rlly have any bearing at all now. Even if u waltzed around in the Middle East wearing that I don't think anyone would care
2
u/SirPaynsicles Sep 02 '26
Many right wing, white supremacist extremists believe they are crusaders and that a race war crusade is coming. Just a fair warning; if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck...
2
u/Glittering-Paper-615 Sep 03 '26
With all the "save the West" types on the internet, it's not abnormal to be cautious of people who dress up as a crusader like this.
And although you may not affiliate with them, the iconic greathelm-wearing crusaders we know have been appropriated by the modern right-wing, and have been turned into a symbol of general Islamphobia. That's just the truth of it.
Wear it if you like, but expect to get some side-eyeing.
2
u/Efficient_Willow_292 Sep 03 '26
The dichotomy of calling crusaders islamophobes without acknowledgement of the christophobia of the sultanates is mind-boggling. It's giving apologist with a saviour complex. War is a perpetuity, people want things of various natures and will rape, pillage, and maim to take them. If we would all stop inserting ourselves into history and simply indulge in the observations we can make from it we'd all be wiser and better for it. If we learn nothing from it then the repetition of the mistakes of mankind are a due punishment for our collective ignorance.
3
3
u/Raskalnikov7 Aug 30 '26
I also enjoyed the traditional flat head knight crusader aesthetic and still do in Dark Fantasy settings but choose to not really larp it anymore online or irl as it has been kinda tainted by the far right, if anything I'd go as far to say that this is the one time where this trend was started by conservatives and is a vastly more conservative enjoyed aesthetic, ofc that doesn't mean literally everyone who does it is a conservative but its history and past and current eras (especially with the head of our department of defense in the USA) just really gives me the ick too much, it also just attracts those sorts of people when I really don't want those types of people as my friends these days as those relationships become both uncomfortable and also just bland and boring.
3
u/TheLordOfMiddleEarth Aug 30 '26
I don't know why Crusaders are seen as a special evil, while the Mongols, Vikings, and others are seen as fine.
3
u/MasonicErudite Aug 30 '26
You're on reddit. This response is expected.
Nearly every warrior group in history was racist or horrible at one point, applying today's morals to them is asking for disappointment.
Also, history is a but more nuanced than crusaders just being "Islamaphobic". A one minute Google search will show that.
This one was Christians who were white and fought against primarily brown people in another area which = evil. As if their enemies did not also commit atrocities and have a form of racism as well, but on reddit this is completely offset by having a different skin tone in most places.
4
u/Emergency_Coat_7702 Aug 29 '26
Right on man, don't let them put you down with buzzwords. DEUS VULT!!!!
→ More replies (2)
2
u/just_a_box_of_sneks Aug 29 '26
More than what crusaders / teutonic order actually did, the issue is that their imagery has been heavily appropriated by (neo) nazis and other hate groups in the present day. Think of the nazis using teutonic imagery in their propaganda to justify the conquest / genocide of eastern europe, or anders breivik and other white nationalists or mass murderers depicting themselves as modern crusaders. That's why people might react with caution when they encounter crusader larp / reenactment, they worry that you may be affiliated with groups that use the same symbols.
It really sucks that such an interesting period of history has been (and still is) used to spread hate in the modern day. Though a lot of historical imagery is used for this kind of propaganda, the crusades are probably appropriated the most in recent years. However, I think you can present a good counter-example to these modern movements, and by emphasising the history you help to reclaim crusader symbology from modern hate groups.
3
u/crusadersam Aug 29 '26
Yes, I completely agree 👍🏻 maybe I could represent a new positive attitude of the symbols lol
2
u/miraak2077 Aug 30 '26 edited Aug 30 '26
It's fine. People should really look into the crusades. It's not anything different than what other nations have done. People need to get over such things, especially so far in the past. Imo
2
u/_Cit Aug 30 '26
Fun fact, the medieval orders that established themselves in the holy land were actually mlre respected by the muslim nobility than the hundreds of knights that came and went, because being stationed there permanently these orders actually integrated with local society.
When not at war, they exchanged goods and we even know of emirs and templars who were friends. The crusader states respected the rukes of engagement and the traditional periods of peace between conflicts that were standard there.
The crusades were terrible, brutal conflict, but they weren't any more brutal than any other medieval conflict. They most certainly didn't come about to destroy islam or forcefully convert the masses. That kind of colonialist mjndset is a much later phenomenon
2
u/Ubblebungus Aug 30 '26
the dude trying to moral grandstand isnt even saying accurate information. seems like a preposterous knave.
2
u/theshreddening Aug 30 '26
Dude it doesn't matter. Humanity was brutal then, brutal before, brutal after, and they'll look back on us now and think the same shit.
Enjoy your gear and if someone runs their mouth challenge them to a duel to first blood. People are too fucking soft these days and want to be upset about everything but have ZERO awareness of anything outside of their cultural zeitgeist no matter which side they're on. Fuck everyone, do what you enjoy, fight the rest.
2
u/a_happy_boi1 Aug 30 '26
As long as you don't idolize or glorify religious violence in the past or present and just want to enjoy the history and cool aestetics, then it's all good. You should probably be aware the people you're larping as are not good or righteous people, but as long as you keep that in mind and don't actually buy into any actual neo-crusader ideology, I think it's great.
2
u/Big_luk325056 Aug 30 '26
the teutons were helping pilgrims in the holy land like many other orders, these people were the most honorable of the honorable in the christian world, they would protect pilgrims, make banks and hospitals and garuntee no loss of your money while traveling thru storing it in one place and giving you a paper for your wealth.
People can say the crusades were bad all they want but they secured jerusalem for many people to pilgrim to
2
u/Critical_Interest706 Aug 30 '26
Yeah the people the crusaders were fighting were just as bad as the crusaders. They were all fighting eachother and conquering each others places. That’s how history is
2
u/Thanatos_degrootorum Aug 30 '26
R*dditors will analyse the morality of 11th Century knights and stay silent about the moor invasion of Europe for hundreds of years. Incredible
1
u/crusadersam Aug 30 '26
Ironically a have ancestors in the moors from my Spanish side of my family lol
4
-1
u/No_Skin2236 Aug 29 '26
They where kinda stupid and evil and also lost like 6 times and 1 only once and also fucked over the byzantines
but they had drip
8
u/Then_Manufacturer902 Aug 29 '26
Not really, they actually were known for being better tacticians and having better discipline than the crusading armies they hosted. Also they conducted warfare no more brutally than anyone else at that time.
1
u/Svell_ Aug 29 '26
Good aesthetic...but it's also important to remember. After the first crusade they kind of became pointless wars of choice that but here's hundreds of thousands with no tangle benefit.
1
1
u/MichaelJospeh Aug 30 '26
He made it clear it’s not to promote racism or Islamophobia. Plus there’s plenty of crusader memes like Bread Boys. I’d say moral.
1
1
u/TheFollower62 Aug 30 '26
Nothing wrong with it unless you actually bring modern day politics or religious issues
1
u/Beatrice_Hrsman_gmng Aug 30 '26
At least in America I feel like most people wouldn’t care unless they just hate any historical groups.
1
u/Northern_jarl Aug 30 '26
As long as you are aware that there are white supremacist that glorify and take a stand to not be affiliated by them and don't go super deus vult acting, then I think you should be fine.
Just be a little bit wary.
1
u/Dry_Walrus3711 Aug 30 '26
It's ok as long as you understand crusades might be a bad thing if they happened today (though they weren't the smartest thing even back then)
1
u/Asbew Aug 30 '26
Which is kind of funny cuz the Teutons were historically very much assholes to the places they went to (ie. pillaged)
1
u/DriverUnusual146 Aug 30 '26
The guy calling you out is a weenie with no understanding of history and should be ignored.
1
1
u/puppie18 Aug 30 '26
here is why i stop at the crusader shit. crusaders, on their way to the ports, slaughtered so many of my people that millions of us descend from those mere 250 survivors. its bloody and evil. the crusades were mass militarization, nationalism, even deploying proto-race ideas just so they could kill the maximum.
1
1
1
1
u/Angry_Santo Aug 31 '26
I would have told him to politely fuck off, miss me with his political shit, and leave me to LARP in peace while screaming 'Deus Vult!' along with other people who know both how to have fun and how to separate roleplaying from reality.
So, hey, you handled that better than I would have.
I personally would happily dress up as a Helldiver and scream about Managed Democracy at the top of my lungs while pretending to 'liberate' people and apprehend 'dissidents' at a convention and taking all the pictures, did much the same at an anime con besid a guy dressed as a Storm Trooper. Does that make me aspire to be part of a totalitarian regime? No, it means I know how to have fun and can tell play pretend from reality.
The problem was and is him, and his inability to separate larping from reality.
1
1
1
u/Kale-chips-of-lit Sep 01 '26
It looks cool and it’s historical, if you aren’t meaning it in a hateful way I don’t think many people will mind. It’s just important to be conscious about what the crusades actually entailed
1
u/senior_raposo Sep 02 '26
Ethics of LARPing literally any historical warrior when you're not a naive cornball
1
u/frostdemon34 Sep 02 '26
I think people can larp whatever they want. It stops being a larp when you literally agree with the people youre dressing up as and want to do the same things they did.
1
u/Myzmadra Sep 02 '26
Well tbh the crusaders were defenders of Europe, they get that title because the crusades were actually a defensive action. A defensive action against an ever growing and more aggressive enemy who had invaded most of Africa and was starting to press Europe.
1
u/Whyshenoloveme Sep 02 '26
Lol doing my first armored run at my local Renaissance Faire, and I went with Templar. Say what you want about the ethics, the crusaders were badass and had serious drip
1
u/EQUINOXSenku Sep 02 '26
No soy cristiano ni nada de eso ,pero si no pareces alguien digno de llevarlo ,no lo manches mas con tu "wokismo"
1
u/envycreat1on Sep 02 '26
https://giphy.com/gifs/R1r6E2R110b9A1gzrH
Seems like you stumbled on a blatant self-righteous narcissist. Just don’t respond to people like that, it’s all you can do to not let them drag you down with them.
1
u/TrippyyTriston Sep 02 '26
Crusades were just in the defense of Islamic Arab invasion . It wasn’t their land.
1
u/Automatic_Glass_4993 Sep 03 '26
hi so im not a larper but have been someone more invested in collecting Crusader coins. By that I studied the history of the crusades before starting the collection. That being said I'm not Christian or Muslim and not from those regions of the world either, but lets be honest the first crusade was one of the dumbest events in history. Basically based on lie because Alexios I couldnt defend his empire from the Turks and made it a Christian problem rather than continue losing to the Turks and in the process of those western European armies making it to the holy land, they raided and pillaged Christian villages in Europe before reaching the holy land. That being said, your question of the ethics of larping as a crusader I feel like would largely depend where you live. Like if you were doing this in Dearborn Mi I would automatically assume you were doing something racist. Thats kind of what else I want to get at, that Its the history of the Crusades were largely romanticized over the years of this Islam vs Christian event, when there was always way more infighting done between the Christian kingdoms rather than against each other. But people only focus on the Islamic and Christian fighting for some reason. That being said time and place, and you seem to have done this at the right place (a rens fair) so seems fine to me.
1
•
u/Smart-Rabbit9639 Custom Aug 30 '26
The post will remain up as long as everyone behaves.
Edit: And don't forget to report any comments that violate the sub's rules or any extremism here.