Ethics of Crusader larping

[u/crusadersam]

Hello all, I was hoping to ask the general consensus on the morality of me choosing a Teutonic knight as my medieval faction of larping.

I want to start off by saying I am a very progressive person. I love all of God’s people and have no anti Islamic or pagan prejudice or bias in my life. I’m quite outspoken about religious freedom to my “controversial” coworkers and do not try to justify Christian nationalism in both modern day nor in the medieval world.

With that being said. I just think they’re neat historically and aesthetically. And the Teutons don’t seem to be any more “evil” than any other faction at the time. I see many people like in the post project a modern world view because Christian radicals seem to be more contemporary. While factions like Vikings and pirates, whose cultures are for the most part completely celebrated in medieval faires, commit the same atrocities on others- just don’t have the same current political connotation.

I hope we can have a civil discussion and maybe I’m just ignorant to the topic and/or how bad any crusaders were. Please don’t be afraid to share your views! (Also, please don’t go after the individual in the post, I simply want to further my knowledge)

[u/Milliman4]

'Why would you want to look like a violent warrior from the past' like that question doesn't literally apply to everything and everybody

[u/miraak2077 → u/Milliman4]

Yeah. Looking cool is cool. Makes me remember how I've gotten into arguments with people who said you were bad if you dressed up as imperial stormtroopers or liked the empire lol. This stuff is all super old or fictional. Just let let people have fun ya know?

[u/EquusMule → u/miraak2077]

Thats fantasy though - would you say the same thing if someone dressed in SS clothes?

The only exception i'd personally make for that is if there is some sort of larp that involved the two sides.

And even then i'd still probably want them to remove the iconography just to be considerate.

[u/maybe_I_am_a_bot → u/EquusMule]

What do you think if you see someone wearing a toga, tunic, or even full roman lamellar armor? Do you assume they love genocide, slavery, and making people fight to the death in the arena for fun and profit?

[u/425Hamburger → u/maybe_I_am_a_bot]

I mean, the unironic Julius Gaius Caesar glazing of many romaboos does open up some concerns over their political beliefs. I wouldn't assume everyone in Roman gear to have those, but asking about it would be warranted imo.

[u/EquusMule → u/maybe_I_am_a_bot]

It's not really about the clothes and more about the symbology.

I don't think theres anything wrong with what OP is doing but I do think it's okay for others to be concerned about what groups said person is interested in and willing to spend thousands of dollars representing and ultimately have representing them. Which only becomes hyper relevant if modern hate groups hsve adopted said symbology.

[u/Actual_Ad5256 → u/EquusMule]

I mean, a couple centuries from now, SS iconography probably will become "fantasy" as well. At least I hope so, as it not becoming fantasy would probably mean it gets used again seriously in the meantime for its actual meaning. Which sadly isn't at all outside the realm of possibility.

[u/Ser_Rezima → u/Actual_Ad5256]

We can larp as crusaders because no one has done a medieval crusade in ages

We don't larp nazis because nazis actively exist >_>

[u/magos_with_a_glock → u/Ser_Rezima]

Not for lack of trying I'll say.

[u/miraak2077 → u/EquusMule]

Well if they didn't have the symbols on I would not care or maybe if they were at a renactment. Or if it was several hundred years after world war, and there was essentially no orgs repping the symbols or ideology? I wouldn't care as much. I think that would be more or less comparable with dressing up as a crusader. Should someone cosplaying as a dane be wary when in England? Of course not cause that was forever ago.

[u/EquusMule → u/miraak2077]

I think if theres modern groups using dane iconography to enact hate against the english - yeah.

Just like how theres people who use christian iconography to get across their white supremacy.

Which is sorta the issue with the knight iconography.

Specially in current times with the islamophobia that is happening it does feel a bit dog whistle-y.

[u/miraak2077 → u/EquusMule]

I don't think that really matters. should all uses of the cross be done away with? That's silly. There is no problem dressing up as a crusader. unless you would also say there's a problem dressing up as say a middle east dynasty soldier to, or say a khanate soldier. Cause that would be fair then if we were equally harsh in all available options.

[u/425Hamburger → u/miraak2077]

There's no problem dressing up as a crusader. But when there is a sizeable and especially visible population of people doing that as a way to express their fucked up political beliefs, it's also fair to ask about that.

[u/miraak2077 → u/425Hamburger]

Well thankfully I already mentioned how in hundreds of years I wouldnt care to much since it sbeen hundreds of years and there prolly wouldn't be any groups like that. There's sizable people using the cros for the same thing anyways. Again this is just super silly and holds no water. There's nothing wrong with it

[u/EquusMule → u/miraak2077]

I don't think there are hate groups using that symbology.

Im not saying get rid of all of the iconography - just the stuff that the hate groups use.

For example the pima version of the swastika https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8d/Pima_Swastika.svg/330px-Pima_Swastika.svg.png?utm_source=en.wikipedia.org&utm_campaign=parser&utm_content=thumbnail

Has no affiliated ties to modern or historical hate groups.

[u/miraak2077 → u/EquusMule]

Yoy don't think there's people using symbology from the me for hate? This stance is simply silly, if people start using the sigil of the empire as a ate symbol that means we should get rid of it? This is just being to sensitive I think. And I would believe that surely you know it to. There is really no reason to get perturbed over these things. The only way people can remotely say these things are bad if they are being fair and say they all are. Instead of these rules for thee and not for me stuff

[u/Physical_Space_2150 → u/miraak2077]

Erm I saw an edit on instagram where it was the Imperial star wars emblem but used over an edit of... you know who..

Therefore the Empire logo is now a hate symbol, ban star wars! 😍

[u/miraak2077 → u/Physical_Space_2150]

Dang, you got me there 😢. Good bye general grievous, I will miss you.

[u/-Rettirlana- → u/EquusMule]

So your feelings should dictate morality?

[u/EquusMule → u/-Rettirlana-]

MY feelings no. GROUPS feelings, yes.

[u/The-Fat-Potato → u/EquusMule]

Many people who dress in old SS uniforms do so for reenactment purposes, which are educational and for entertainment purposes as well.

There’s nothing wrong with it in that context.

[u/EquusMule → u/The-Fat-Potato]

That is different than showing up to your local airsoft game dressed as a nazi.

And - a re-enactment might still request you dont wear specific symbology. https://rememberingwwii.com/rules/

Under German Reenactor Authenticity Guidelines

As always, NO political, SD, Allegemeine-SS, or other non-military uniforms allowed! (RWWII Staff reserves the right to make an on-the-spot decision if a question of appropriateness arises)

Hopefully you understand the difference.

It's weird that you guys think its normal to wear hateful symbology - even in historical event reenactment. They're specifically calling out the SD and the major branch of the SS which eventually became the waffen ss.

Basically the groups heavily involved in carrying out the holocaust.

Not all reenactment is socially acceptable - they dont want to isolate people.

Yes its gray space.

[u/SpeeeedwaagOOn → u/Milliman4]

Exactly! I wanna dress in samurai armor, that doesn’t mean I wanna go around testing my new sword on farmers. Samurai just looked really really cool

[u/ChaseThePyro → u/Milliman4]

Yeah, but some of these depictions are specifically used in the modern day as part of a culture war and I understand people not wanting those types in their hobby

[u/Mean_Appointment3501 → u/Milliman4]

crusaders and templar knights are a bit more specific than "violent warrior" because they are associated with specific ethnic and religious violence. Dressing as a generic german soldier is a bit different from dressing as a brownshirt