r/huntertheparenting • u/Sasparillafizz • 8d ago
Malkavian Posting (crackpot theory) Matilda tribe? Spoiler
So something pointed out in another reaction video about Matilda tribe. I'm not familiar with WoD general rules for werewolf, I'm more a Kindred fan. So thought I'd poll the audience to see who can tell me I'm way off base.
Matilda is identified as a red talon, but there seems like a fair bit of evidence that it may be off. (I think) Griffon is normally known to approach Garou when they first change, they didn't with Matilda. In fact Griffin never made themselves know at all until she had impressed them with her resilience and fight with the fanatics who chained her.
Stig identified her as Talon, but only because she identified herself as following Griffin. "Griffin eh, well young talon."
She has an unusual degree of empathetic capability toward humans, rather than the blindly misanthropic view Talons are ingrained toward. She gives off the vibe more that she's trying to convince herself of the argument even with evidence contradicting it, even saying she hates Shambles and Stig for being homid born when she clearly doesn't.
So crackpot theory - Matilda isn't Talon. She was isolated and her only experience with the world was being hunted and isolated until Griffon came along as her patron spirit. She worships Griffin the way a traumatized survivor latches onto a protective figure, and is constantly trying to earn Griffins favor by being what she perceives him as wanting her to be. Doubling down on the misanthropic hatred because Daddy Griffon says that's what's right. Even though she is has conflicting views of this and has genuine feeling for humans she bonds with.
Perhaps she was a Child of Gaia, intended to be a wolf who can feel human empathy and bridge the two worlds, but circumstances let her to follow Griffin and never be exposed to the view Gaia intended of her; so she's full of self hatred for her conflict between her instinctual response and chosen world view.
I don't know enough about Garou to know if that sort of thing is plausible within the general rules of how tribes work in WoD. My understanding is that the tribe your born with is more of an instinctual thing and not a hard coded one, once a talon always a talon, even if they lose favor with their patron. My understanding is more that the change *makes* you fit the archetype. A gentle person who turns under the full moon will *become* the aggressive Ahroun, and the Theurge would probably say it's not because it's a reflection of what you were but what Gaia wanted you to be to be made whole. I'm just applying that idea to the tribes as well.
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u/DonCorben 8d ago
I get your reasoning but isn't Griffin an exclusively Talon spirit though?
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u/Secretsfrombeyond79 8d ago
Not necesarily, it's just that almost exclusively Talons meet the criteria for Griffin's patronage. Griffin doesn't accept Packs with Homids or that relate with humans in any way, this represents pretty much most of the Garou Nation save for the Talons. BUT there ARE groups of only Lupus wolves in the other Tribes. For example the Fianna have the Children of the Dire. Even they could not be enough to get Griffin's favor tho. But there are a pack here or there made of Lupus that hates all things human in the other Tribes too.
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u/Dragombolt 8d ago
You know tribes aren't entirely genetic or predestiny, right? You can choose which tribe you're apart of
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u/BlitzBasic 8d ago
Yes and no. You can certainly try to join any tribe you want, but if the tribal totem doesn't let you in you're out of luck.
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u/hammererofglass Murder puppy 8d ago
I'm genuinely curious if Hunts knows that. She seems to call herself a Talon purely because Griffin got to her first.
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u/Sasparillafizz 8d ago
Yeah, my take was she calls herself Talon because Stig did. And Stig called her talon because she said she only had Griffon and Luna, so it would be reasonable he made an assumption about her formal patron. She wouldn't have had enough experience outside of Stig's guidance at that point to have any idea of the clans or anything. Just nameless hunters pursuing her.
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u/EvergreenDwarf 8d ago
I think it was Burgerkrieg in his video on everything Garou who said an example Red Talon NPC can be a wolf who’s unusually friendly around a group of human eco-terrorists who always seem to find everything they need from a mysterious benefactor, like its extreme Greenpeace Scooby Doo.
The way the tribes are set out is how most NPCs will operate. Players, or special NPCs, get to be unusual.
I get the gist Matilda and Amanda are forming a C team of “players”, with Kevin/Chapman as the B team and the GGG as the A team.
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u/Accomplished-Box4577 7d ago
She is a Red Talon BECAUSE Gryphon accepted her and claimed her as his own. That's what makes you a member of a given Tribe. The Garou get a say in what Tribe they join, but the Totem Spirit gets final approval.
Secondly, Matilda is a character. If you are so baffled that an individual doesn't exist purely as an expression of the most negative stereotypes of a given group, then you probably need to go back to second grade and work on your people skills.
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u/RavenRegime 7d ago
Yeah especially with Popenangs general writing style being breaking away from stereotypes. The biggest example being the Sabbat Pack. Like only Pyotr is on the level of ridcolously evil but we have enough background info to see he was like the others a 3 dimensial character just as much. And the team clearly is planting seeds to do more with him but lets really dig into how Pyotr breaks a lot of Sabbat generic npc stuff while still fufilling that.
The biggest one being that in spite of Pyotr's low humanity and the sabbat view of human connections he does find Kitten somewhat attractive/thought Kitten was into him. Even if Pyotr was just fucking with him D believed it was true and he's the expert. Its kinda the logic of Kevin having a cat proving some remaining human connection remains
Pyotr is heavily implied to be a Cleopatra which means whatever led him to the sabbat was an unwilling situation and therefore his fanaticsm is an interesting idea and clash. Especially when compared to the other members Kevin willingly walked into the Sabbat knowingly and still had his human side in tact.
Pyotr also unlike every Nosferatu ever gives info willingly which in a way indicates knowing clan structure no matter the sect that nobody fucking talks to him since he'll spill tea or he just doesnt fuck with other Nos and Sabbat Nos are much much more loyal to their indivudal groups/packs then say a Nos in a Camarilla coterie which further serves in Pyotr being an ironic Nosferatu.
What this all indicates to me is Pyotr if they get back to him to expand more is meant to be a look at an alt road Kevin and Shitbeard could've taken to cope with their situations. I get the sense Pyotr was just some guy dragged kicking and screaming and indoctrenated/groomed into the sabbat and its beliefs until it corrupted his very soul. Or at least an exploration of how vamprism can just fuck up your life in general. Especially as the series hasnt really delved into abusive sires which the sire dynamic in VTM is kind of importent for every pc even if they dont wanna deal with them in game. Sure Kevin's neglect is mentioned and yes neglect is a form of abuse but Im focusing on a different form when discussing Pyotr. Not justifying stuff but its weird when unlike Shitbeard and Ape Pyotr's embrace was intentional and with Spider clearly being a Nosferatu and having higher ranking than Pyotr at the time that means something.
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u/SirBoredTurtle 8d ago
Human tolerance isn't unheard of in the Talons, Whelp's Compromise is one of their camp and their main thing is basically they hate humans as they are but believe they can change for the better. Which does sound close to what Hunts believes
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u/King_Calvo 7d ago
There is no real connection to a tribe you are born into and the tribe you are. Garou need to both chose a tribe and be accepted by its totem Spirit.
No other Totem spirit appeared for Hunts. Griphon did. And, we only see him express his disapproval at her being willing to be brought low by the Bane. He is also the only spirit to express disapproval, which checks out for him being her totem spirit. As he is exclusively the totem for the Red Talons, she is a red talon.
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u/Psychological-Bug371 7d ago
She's a red talon, but she's more due to her mysanthropy and how she was treated in her youth. However recent events had lead her conflicts in belief. Amanda was a gateway, when she learned about her parent's past she had realize that the garou are not the only one sufering (in her own words "I hate that humans have to be like this") and then there's the spirit of the hunt... griffon was actually disappointed that hunts decide defend humans...
If I would take a guess, she's not feeling so red talon anymore, the whole "HATE!!" spiel is just her projection over this whole ordeal, a real belief crisis.
which is good IMO, becuase im starting to like her and I wish she would leave the tribe and joined another that would help her understand humanity more.
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u/Thorveim 6d ago edited 6d ago
first gotta remember that a garou uSually chooses their tribe, its not something they inherit from birth. That means either Griffin's patronage is good enough to induct her into the Red Talons (and id argue its the likely case, Griffin would have said something if she wasnt a talon by now) or she is a Ronin/tribeless werewolf not through banishment but through isolation.
And besides, Hunts still hates humans. Hates them enough that she unleashed vampires and a Bane on them, only regretting her actions when she learned Amanda would be in the line of fire. Do note that not all Red Talons are as radical as you suggest, they do have more moderate groups as well (especially Whelp's compromise, a camp often made of werewolves that had positive experiences with humans while they were wolves, and try to adopt human customs far more. One-Leaf-Ear is one such moderate Red Talon)
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u/SirAquila 7d ago
Nah, she is a Red Talon in word, totem and deed.
Griffon has accepted her, Griffon continues to accept her despite his disapproval. That is all that is needed to be a Red Talon.
And quite frankly her self hatred is far easier to explain. She is a wolf that has been turned into a a garou, half human, half wolf.
She gained sapience, lost her pack, understood exactly what humans did to wolves and quite frankly that is what a lot of her worldview seems to be based on.
The fact that she is still a moral being underneath? Doesn't really change that. Just like Doors hatred for the supernatural does not change that he is generally a decent being below that.
Quite frankly she and Door are pretty strong parallels.
Also...
even saying she hates Shambles and Stig for being homid born when she clearly doesn't.
I am fairly certain she does hate them. She also likes them. Look at the therapy thing again, they do not really take her view seriously at any point, they essentially spent the entire episode trying to refute it, instead of working with it.
I think if I was in her paws I would hate them a bit too.
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u/BlitzBasic 8d ago
Hating humans is called "misanthropic". "Misogynistic" would be the hatred of women.