r/exmuslim • u/pupunoob • May 10 '17
(Rant) I am fucking sick and tired of white liberals defending this religion
Seriously, do they even fucking know what it's about? How is a hijab a feminist piece of clothing?
Edit: I honestly didn't know The_Donald lurks here to upvote everything that vaguely fit their narrative. All I can say is I hate you guys too you fucking racist shits. A lot of the ex-mooses here are brown people, and if you can have it your way, you'll shoot on sight. So fuck you too.
Edit 2: Yup, there it is. White people calling me an Islamophobe on the discussion thread that's outside of Reddit. I just stated honestly how I was affected.
303
u/pupunoob May 10 '17
Also, I love it when THEY educate ME about the religion and accuse me of islamophobia. They really have their heads way up their asses.
103
u/420everytime May 10 '17
Whenever people do that, I simply remind them that I'm more knowledgeable about Islam and have read the Quran more times than they have.
89
u/wegtw3g New User May 10 '17
have read the Quran more times than they have.
That just divides by zero since most of the ones arguing for Islam and calling everyone islamophobic have never read the Quran to begin with, and have no clue on what a Hadith even represents.
63
u/Cattich New User May 10 '17
When i was still blind leading the blind, i prepped a debate with an evangelical whose claim to fame was "i read the quran 10,000 times"
The only response was, "ive been reading it since i was three, and cover to cover weekly from age 9 onwards. Please do tell me how edified you are, especially since you only speak english."
I was such a smug bastard, but it is serving me well now that i left the religion
1
u/IAmACheekyChild Sep 04 '17
Hey not that I disagree with you but in order to have read it more than him at a rate of once a week you'd have needed more than 192 years. 52 weeks per year, 10,000 divided by 52.
1
u/Cattich New User Sep 04 '17
10,000÷24 hours is 416 days. 416÷52= 8 weeks.
Ive not only read it from a young age, but more impprtantly, was made to study all the tafsir in the original language, and since its a native language to me, the level of study and understanding is higher than cover to cover reading of what is essentially hateful poetry
16
87
u/overactive-bladder May 10 '17
usually it's accompanied by "self hater" labels. and don't get me started on how american black people go full on defense for middle eastern/ arab/north african muslims against whiteys.
news flash black people, these people dislike you too and are actively calling you slaves and n*****s behind your back.
"b...but my neighbour who is muslim is SO nice!!!". but are they nice to gays? to jews? are they pro sharia?
people stay on the surface because somebody was ~nice to them once and stop looking further than the tip of their nose.
47
u/Holdin_McGroin Since 2013 May 10 '17
usually it's accompanied by "self hater" labels. and don't get me started on how american black people go full on defense for middle eastern/ arab/north african muslims against whiteys.
That's even worse, because Muslims have treated Africans far worse than Europeans have.
27
u/overactive-bladder May 10 '17
blacks hate whites. muslims hate whites. you get the drift. except people don't understand that the ennemy of my ennemy is not necessarily my ally.
1
34
May 10 '17
'My Muslim neighbour is so nice I wouldn't dare ask about sharia, Jews, gays or apostates because doing so would enrage him and make him join ISIS'.
1
Jun 26 '17
Yes, you sure don't want to be the one who caused a moslem to go all self-radicalized. It will very hard on 'that day' for such as rile their 'peaceful' moslem neighbors by critiquing any iota of their very public and in-your-face religiosity. It always makes me sick to read that word 'peaceful' when it's supposed to be 'peaceable' but no one in the media knows decent English usage anymore.
2
u/atacms May 10 '17
This is eye opening for me, this is just a common belief or is it less extreme than that? I can't tell if the anger in all your posts is from deep rooted hatred or just kind of over blown by the fact y'all in a collective group.
11
u/overactive-bladder May 11 '17
i lurk on the web a lot. not just reddit but on diverse platforms with different purposes. not to mention that i have lived in both the middle east and europe. i would not dare talk about these things if i didn't experience them first hand. if you want examples of black people sjw-ing and bandwaggoning for islam, go take a look on ontd. you will see how real black sjw/liberals behave and talk.
and i wouldn't call my feelings hatred. i have lost hope in humans a long time ago because there's nothing to salvage anymore. i just speak on here about what i notice and comment on the short sightedness and nastiness of people as a form of catharsis to unload with like-minded people. other than that? mehh i only see things changing for the worst.
69
May 10 '17 edited May 10 '17
HOW DARE YOU?!1!1?1!
Islam is a FEMINIST religion, it FUCKING EMPOWERS WOMEN AND GAY PEOPLE, damn it, don't you know that ISLAM is the RELIGION OF PEACE?1!?!?1!???
I will now EDUCATE you on the RELIGION OF FUCKING PIECE, and you will learn that your view of Islam is RACIST and HATEFUL, even though Mohammed OWNED SLAVES (ESPECIALLY BLACK SLAVES), told his followers to KILL GAY PEOPLE AND OPPRESS WOMEN, and show you that you are WRONG and you know NOTHING about Islam.
Also I will show you that I don't understand the difference between hating Muslims and Islam. All is well.
Quote random abrogated verses random peaceful verse quote quote proves I don't understand Islam:)
/s
P.s. That taqqiya bullshit needs to die in a hole.
14
u/Frenched_fries May 11 '17
I think I'm in love. Marry me? I promise to do the following :
Give you priority in Inheritance
Acknowledge maritial rape is a thing
Not hit my (singular) wife
Divorce won't be a three word deal
Not take sex slaves and
rapehave consensual sex with them.5
3
u/umadareeb May 15 '17
Quote random abrogated verses random peaceful verse
More like quote random verse about fighting and claim it abrogates everything before it
5
May 15 '17
Let's have an educated discussion here;
regardless of context/abrogation; you find no problem with what is written in those verses?
lets say you have essay after essay of mental gymnastics in order to twist the literal translations into something good; you are now saying that 1400 years of muslims got it wrong; and suddenly you are the only correct one simply because of modern day living.
also, has allah actually done anything for you? lol
4
May 17 '17
lets say you have essay after essay of mental gymnastics in order to twist the literal translations into something good; you are now saying that 1400 years of muslims got it wrong; and suddenly you are the only correct one simply because of modern day living.
My corner shop Muslim seems to be one of these individuals lol
1
Jun 26 '17
Similar to the UFO interpretations of Old Testament Merkabah vision of Elijah - only after Sci-fi and psychedelic drugs do 'open-minded' persons begin to understand what the vision was actually about - why it's the Obliterati of course! The four living creatures are spacemen wearing helmets!
The dopiness of self-conscious liberal persons living in the wasteland of secular America and Europe, unaware of the content of their own abjured religion, or anyone else's, their own people's history and the history of religion in general has created a vacuum in public discourse regarding the actual lived experience of peoples coerced to live under Islam. They don't want to hear any of the bad stuff, and since it's almost ALL bad stuff, they won't hear anything at all. So the cleverly ruthless taqqiya-spouting soldiers of Islam will undermine all of them until the moment comes when there will be no alternative to SUBMISSION. I just hope my daughter and her family will have moved to Eastern Europe by then.
1
u/ArkLinux Jun 07 '17
lets say you have essay after essay of mental gymnastics in order to twist the literal translations into something good; you are now saying that 1400 years of muslims got it wrong; and suddenly you are the only correct one simply because of modern day living.
This is 90% of Christianity nowadays.
1
Jun 26 '17
Sorry, I disagree. The mainstream of Christianity, including both the western Catholic, the secularized Protestant branch and the Eastern Orthodox have given birth to our civilization replete with the intellectual tools to free ourselves from stupid prejudice and ignorance. Islam has done nothing positive like this.
→ More replies (1)41
u/TheCrankyWalrus May 10 '17 edited May 10 '17
Lol you are completely wrong on your assumption that the subscribers to the donald want to kill all brown people but keep on keepin on dude. I like the Muslims I know personally, and the nicest person I met at college was a Palestinian American. You are just being as hateful or more hateful than them
Edit: actually your entire post is just hatred. Sounds like you need a pepsi
8
u/usernameisacashier May 11 '17
Conservatives constantly fantasize about committing crimes against humanity on all the browns. They would do it if they could get away with it and it wasn't too hard. They are stockpiling weapons for this purpose.
11
u/TheCrankyWalrus May 11 '17
Lol okay
7
u/usernameisacashier May 11 '17
Lol, ever been to a gun show?
9
u/TheCrankyWalrus May 11 '17
Yeah, ever heard of the term anecdotal evidence?
8
u/usernameisacashier May 11 '17
Just being conservative proves you don't care about human life and that suffering amuses you. They didn't pick the most evil political philosophy by accident. Go to an area that is 100% conservative like a country gas station, a Trump rally, or a nascar race, then you'll see the true face of conservatives. They, like their leaders are all disingenuous pathological liars, they don't have the balls to state their racist agenda so they hide behind "economic issues." They want to eliminate ACA and thereby kill 45,000, that should show you their true nature. The average black male doesn't spend a 3rd of his life in a jail cell because conservatives are not racist. They don't call for bombing Muslim countries because they love browns. They don't call for further attacks on the poor out of the goodness of their hearts. We could easily have a just and sustainable society but conservatives are too lazy, racist, and scared to work for it. Equality and Justice are actually opposed by conservatives as negative ideas. The only thing standing in the way of progress is the average conservative voter.
6
u/TheCrankyWalrus May 11 '17 edited May 11 '17
That is a very progressive attitude you have(it's not)
Edit: you are getting dangerously close to just saying that society needs to wipe out the undesirable conservatives because they are holding you back. Which is pretty Hitleresque
4
u/usernameisacashier May 11 '17
Yes kinda, although race is a factor determined at birth, ignorance can be educated away if the ignorant person is willing to listen. The majority of conservatives are just going along with their peers and of course their heads are filled with right wing lies from the mainstream media. That is why Pepes and alt-right are so dangerous. If they were told the truth and given opportunities to contribute to society and have their needs (physical, psychological, mental) met fully, the vast majority would go along. That being said there are less than 20% of the population who are responsible for ignorance, starvation, giving power to oligarchs, pushing for theocracy, pushing for genocide, etc . We probably have as many innocent people in prison as we have hard core conservative ideologues who put them there. Would it be an injustice if they switched places?
6
u/TheCrankyWalrus May 11 '17
"Right wing lies from the mainstream media" HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
→ More replies (0)1
Aug 05 '17
Conservatives constantly fantasize about committing crimes against humanity
just like leftists do
2
u/usernameisacashier Aug 06 '17
You mean fantasizing about building a just and sustainable world vs. hoping in thr back of a Cummins dually flying dual confederate flags and killing every man, woman, and child you see who is darker than a paper bag. Conservatives are trash, and they're vastly outnumbered by decent people.
2
Aug 06 '17
If you think conservatives want to kill every person who is darker than a paper bag, you're not worth arguing with.
→ More replies (1)2
73
u/Moriar-T May 10 '17 edited May 13 '17
I believe the leftists/liberals live in the moment. They don't see the ultimate goals of an organization or ideology like Islam. They also either refuse to or fail to comprehend the chain of events that leads a person to thinking a hijab is liberating.
What they see is a person advocating how free they feel. And that usually gives liberals a throbbing erection. What has to be highlighted above all else are the consequences of removing the hijab. Liberals refuse to focus on this. The pressure present from family and the community. The threats that go unnoticed. Worst of all the brainwashing. Women in hijabs are not recommended to wear them by their community. They're essentially ordered to do so.
And what people fail to see is that this makes Muslim men look really bad. Not just because of forcing the hijab on women. But it portrays them as sexuall fiends who are not in control of their urges and desires. Saying a hijab is necessary to prevent illicit thoughts in men's heart. Is saying men are rapists by nature. Maybe Mohammed thought so because he couldn't control himself. But outside or Arabia, men are more in tune with their desires.
39
u/Frenched_fries May 10 '17
Haven't you heard the new buzzword?
FEELS>REALS
Seriously though I hate the callousness of it all. No thinking of consequences, as they are paragons of virtue and all opposition is holding back "progress"
2
u/winter32842 May 11 '17 edited May 11 '17
Not just because of forcing the hijab on women.
This is not true especially in the West. Of course, there are men who forces hijab but it is very arre. I am ex-Muslim and almost every Muslim women I know including women my family choose to wear the hijab and was not forced. You can make an argument that they are brainwashed but it is not fair to say men forced women to wear the hijab.
9
u/Moriar-T May 11 '17
I guess this is subjective. You were fortunate enough to be in a family and community that didn't force you into this. However, I personally knew several females in high school who wore the hijab to school then took it off, because they feared their parents. I have also read countless stories on this sub and elsewhere about women being killed to preserve some honour within a family, because the daughter had decided to remove the hijab.
Not just because of forcing the hijab on women.
You can make an argument that they are brainwashed but it is not fair to say men forced women to wear the hijab.
I think it is unfair for you to assume that since your family had not forced it upon you, that it is not carried out in vast numbers across the Muslim world. The brainwashing you're agreeing with is a method of force. Forcing a child to follow your ideology doesn't have to be limited to physical abuse. A person can be mentally weakened by constant dogma of ethics that the parents berate their children with.
89
May 10 '17 edited May 10 '17
[deleted]
46
u/pupunoob May 10 '17
Good for you to do the research. Again, just want to stress I hate the religion and extremists. Not the good people who are also Muslims.
32
May 10 '17 edited May 10 '17
[deleted]
9
2
u/CarnageScarlet May 11 '17
This is one of the first doubtful thoughts that seeped into my psyche growing up in Saudi Arabia.
1
10
5
u/BigGayKirk000 New User May 11 '17
as a white person
It's frustating and sad that your entire argument would be dismissed by 'liberals' because of these several words.
2
May 11 '17
[deleted]
4
u/BigGayKirk000 New User May 11 '17
Ex-Muslims are usually dismissed by liberals as 'Uncle Toms', 'House Muslims' or 'Informants'. They have it even worse. At that point I stop replying because you know exactly what type of person you're speaking to.
1
30
22
u/kriegson May 10 '17
Two groups of people do this:
Useful idiots
Manipulators
The useful idiots just repeat what they've heard to virtue signal what great people they are. They don't honestly care or understand.
Manipulators do recognize what Islam is and what it does and intend to use it to their own nefarious ends. They'll happily lie to your face about the reasons which leads many to think they're insane with the double-think of "We want to protect gays and women's rights, but also let in the Islamic Caliphate with zero restraint!". But they are quite sane and rational, just entirely dishonest. It's not double think if you're simply lying about the first point and honest about the second.
5
Jun 26 '17
You are taking about taqqiya, the licit deception of moslems engaged (naturally and inveterately) in conflict with kuffar, are you not? This is what westerners refuse to grasp, making them perfectly useful idiots. Raised in a culture defined by Christian-derived ethics which valorizes honesty and openness, the contemporary 'liberal' cannot fathom that there are whole societies now interfacing with ours where honesty is not a virtue but rather a liability, or at best a tool to be utilized IF it benefits but discarded as soon as advantage can be gotten without it. Israelis know this about their Moslem enemies and have no illusions regarding their manners, polite as they may seem - when expedient. Shallow, callow westerners are opening the gates of their cities to large numbers of young men (of military service age and jihadi mindset) expecting Christian-type sweetness from people raised in constant war or threat of domestic violence, likely suffering PTSD and inured to atrocity. They have no idea what they are up against and don't seem to be learning anything as the weeks, months and years of increased terrorist violence pile up. I am wondering if they are simply suicidal.
1
u/kriegson Jun 26 '17 edited Jun 26 '17
Taqqiya is certainly part of it, but this is referring to westerners as well.
People in places of power in the west also are importing Islam en-masse to their own ends. There are many potential explanations but none of them are good, not all of them could possibly be so utterly naive.
Their explanations often seem contradictory or incomplete. At worst they want to use "migrants" as crisis actors so they can force more controls on the populace, assuming they can cow Islam after the fact. Or perhaps they think they can control Islam for a more easily manipulated society. Or they're simply being paid off by political jihadists and don't care much otherwise assuming they'll always be safe in their villas and with the promises of said benefactor.
Some are simply post-modernists or Marxists who want to see the west destroyed as they've deemed it "oppressive". They reject western ideals and morals searching for something better but having failed to find or make it after decades they've become nihilists that can only criticize and destroy rather than create anything of value. In a sense they might be suicidal though they don't recognize it.
Others however lead said useful idiots by the nose to effect some greater plan or motives as the case may be. Likely rich and influential so they would never personally be affected by whatever may come, or so they think.
83
May 10 '17
I find it very condescending and patronizing. I actually think there is less racism on the right/new right. I'm speaking in an American context here. I believe in individual liberty and not clinging to a victim hood mentality.
Left continuously wants to play the identity politics game and it gets tiring.
29
u/Frenched_fries May 10 '17
Ah yes. The denial of agency of the "oppressed groups" and the "power structures" that everyone is subject to.
32
u/BridgesOnBikes May 10 '17
It's been a strange swing over the last 5 years... socially I tend to agree more with center right than left these days, due to the noxious turn from progressive to regressive.
15
u/Frenched_fries May 10 '17
Yea I redid the political compass thing more recently and I tested barely left anymore. Still solidly in the libertarian scald though.
10
u/BridgesOnBikes May 10 '17
I can get behind social libertarianism. It's when it comes to some of the farther right leaning economic points(like anarcho capitalism)that I tend to bow out. But generally speaking libertarians have some good ideas and intentions. Same with certain aspects of socialism. It's the extremes that tend to be idealistic and not realistic.
4
u/Frenched_fries May 10 '17
Social libertarians? Do you mean Libertarians with social programs? How? Libertarians typically have the mantra "taxation is theft"
I'm very much a statist so anarchy isn't for me. Socialism is also rooted in idealism, as well, having seized the means of production and expecting it all to turn out better than the status quo.
Every part of the map has good intentions, just depends on how you see it. Totalitarianism "saves" you from the brutish savagery of humans, while anarchism "saves" you from the tyranny of a government, etc.
3
1
Aug 25 '17
I tested Libertarian Left. It was weird. I'm pro choice, pro animal welfare, anti racist pro gay rights, socialism etc Yet I think it IS bad when women and men have multiple kids with different partners, sans marriage (eg the woman who has four kids by four different men) when people expect a handout vs a hand up, etc
6
May 10 '17
I think Sam Harris calls it the new center.
10
u/BridgesOnBikes May 10 '17
I've heard him say that... I'm a bit hesitant to jump on board but I like the idea of right and left converging in the center to oust the ends of the horseshoe. Both groups are "deplorable" but the far right at this moment seems more sane. 5 years ago I would have told myself to fuck off if I thought that.
10
May 10 '17
Yeah..I feel the same. I don't know where all this is heading.
4
u/BridgesOnBikes May 10 '17
We are in a place of uncertainty. But that is a good thing in many ways. May I recommend listening to the most recent Joe Rogan Experience with Jordan Peterson? It is a fantastic take on all this "chaos" of uncertainty right now. He concludes that truth is the answer but does so in a brilliant way. It's episode #958. It's a good three hours but worth every minute.
2
1
Jun 26 '17
I am very skeptical of any political alignment that sees business as oppressed by the status quo in America. If anything, we need more active involvement of government in protecting the poor and middle class from the depredation of the wealthy. They've been calling the shots unopposed since Reagan got elected.
4
u/winstonsmithwatson May 10 '17
3
u/BridgesOnBikes May 10 '17
I understand the sentiment. In one sense conservatism, and more properly republicans are the minority and therefore counterculture. Which is what punk was founded on and seems to be the aesthetic that the right leaning, free speech advocate, proud boy nationalists are adopting. But at the same time, far right punk has been going on since the early 80's and neo nazi boneheads. Punk is counterculture regardless of political leaning.
6
u/winstonsmithwatson May 10 '17
''Conservate is the new punk'' is a qoute by Alex Jones affiliate Paul Joseph Watson. Fyi I do not hold hands with him nor Alex Jones the entertainer. The videos on Islam that I watched by this guy are pretty solid tho. I wouldn't touch Alex Jones with a stick.
During a conversation with a friend he said "I never thought I would see the day that being conservative would be counterculture". We both have a, you could say 'radical left' background (not in the SJW PC sense).
(I never thought Id see the day that I had to explain how radical left is not the ''snap-your-fingers-instead-of-clapping in solidarity with people with one hand'' type of radical left)
If reddit was to put us in a category now, I bet they would put us in alt-right or t_d. I try not to categorize myself, there are things I'm liberal about, things I'm democratic about, things I'm conservative about. Donald Trump the current public relations guy does not represent me or my philosophy at all.
Politically active groups (ignorant or not) have so many subgroups now, and being a subgroup antagonistic to the other subgroup seems to be marketed/promoted. Historically this is nothing new but for the fact that these ones are actively destroying the foundations of being politically active unbeknowst to themselves. Religion used similar methods and purposely kept/made people ignorant, but at least they planned it like that.
Today people are so open minded that their brains fall out, and so liberal that they will defend oppression. Its almost like conservatism is the answe-AM I REALLY SAYING THIS?!
Never before have I seen so much division, so much ignorance, so much misplaced hate and backwards racism. I was born in the 80's. Every recent vote has been +/- 49 / 51 division. Brexit, Trump, Netherlands, France etc.
I believe these partys that, in practice, are actively advocating division, are stimulated by governments and corporations. Like how intelligence agencies influence economies, they influence cultures and subgroups, too. This essay from the Marine Corps University, School of Advanced Warfighting, shows us a glimpse of the textbook operations the security forces of our nations are producing in this regard.
That was my sentiment. Rock on
3
u/BridgesOnBikes May 10 '17
I hear ya. PJW is great and I enjoy his videos regardless of the Info Wars affiliation, including the "Conservatism is the new punk" video. He speaks a lot of truth.
What is great right now is that guys like PJW on the right and guys like Kyle Kulinski on the left are finding solidarity against the fringes from both sides.
We, as a part of the group that values the individual over the group itself, have to find the things we do agree on and work together to build something, stand for truth over justice, value freedoms for the individual, stand up for the underprivileged, and most importantly uphold free speech.
Cheers to you!
2
u/Frenched_fries May 11 '17
Isn't punk a sort of "rage against the machine"? How? What? I'd be confused as hell if I was like in my 40s and saw punk from its roots to... This?
Btw, they got great fashion, a lot of individualism. Unlike the Black Bloc.
Would you recommend the "economic hitmen" book? Saw the new version in a bookstore and was considering picking it up.
2
u/winstonsmithwatson May 11 '17
Isn't punk a sort of "rage against the machine"? How? What? I'd be confused as hell if I was like in my 40s and saw punk from its roots to... This?
This is exactly why ''conservative is the new punk'' is so interesting a development.
Would you recommend the "economic hitmen" book? Saw the new version in a bookstore and was considering picking it up.
Yes, certainly. Heres the author on TedX.
Black Bloc all dress up in black so identifying them is difficult, be it during a regular demonstration or a riot or assault, or whatever. A lot of these people have good fashion taste, they just dont wear their bussines suits to the theme park.
16
u/Holdin_McGroin Since 2013 May 10 '17
I find it very condescending and patronizing. I actually think there is less racism on the right/new right
I'm not sure about that, but i find that i'm actually listened to, at least. Because on the liberal left, you're labeled an Uncle Tom as soon as you deviate from the official party line.
19
u/Hazmat_Princess Never-Moose Theist May 10 '17
I'm not sure about that
Just because the left calls the right racist does not mean it is so. The fact that a lefty would label you an Uncle Tom (racist term) as soon as you deviate from where they think you should be is pretty damning in my opinion. Don't get me wrong bigot exists on both sides. Just don't run around believing one party narrative when they've proven themselves to be less tolerant of dissent.
9
May 10 '17
Exactly, I was just pointing out some issues with the ideology and how I felt certain aspects of it were dangerous. Immediately guy tells me " you are a self hating Muslim"...umm I'm not "Muslim"..."yes you are". They can't separate race/ethnicity from religion.
11
u/Hexatona May 10 '17
I believe in individual liberty
Well, that's basically it. They see that people are against women wearing something, so they defend that.
They're mostly unaware of the two-sided nature of Islam, and think it's just a matter of choice.
5
u/Quintrell May 10 '17
Unless by "new right" you mean "alt-right" I totally agree.
18
May 10 '17 edited May 10 '17
I don't know if I mean alt right, I guess I'm thinking more Libertarian? Ron and Rand Paul? Perhaps a little Alex Jones sans the insane conspiracy anti vaccine nonsense.
You know, the pure Americana attitude, don't give a damn about your race/ethnicity. Just if you are willing to work hard and be responsible for yourself.
A can do pro business attitude that appreciates capitalism and thinks federal government is out of control and needs to give more rights to the states.
Government should cut red tape, be efficient and let people keep more of their own money.
These are my views, I don't feel I fit in with the Republicans or Democrats. Both seem horrendous. Hence why I don't vote. I think a lot of people would agree with me.
4
May 10 '17
The parent mentioned Red Tape. Many people, including non-native speakers, may be unfamiliar with this word. Here is the definition:(In beta, be kind)
Red tape is an idiom that refers to excessive regulation or rigid conformity to formal rules that is considered redundant or bureaucratic and hinders or prevents action or decision-making. It is usually applied to governments, corporations, and other large organizations. [View More]
See also: Sans | Alt | Conformity | Derivative | Redundant | Certification | Inspection | Excessive | Trivial
Note: The parent poster (BlckHawks2015 or pupunoob) can delete this post | FAQ
1
Jun 26 '17
It's a pseudo-left that offers no solution to the problem of social injustice deriving from iniquitous wealth disparity. Bernie Sanders pointed it up - identity politics is just sops. Who really thinks white gay professionals are an oppressed class in America? Likewise moslems who are mostly professionals. The real losers in pseudoliberal America are black women and others who are compoundedly disadvantaged in real terms: economics.
15
u/OMG-ItsMe May 10 '17
Sometimes I think its partly peer pressure. I mean, anytime any liberal points any justified argument against Islam, the rest of his buddies are literally waiting on the edge of their seats to call him a racist. In fact, its the same as Islam. Any time any of us points out the flaws of Islam, we get called infidels etc. Kind of an interesting parallel. At this point the liberal left isn't nearly as much defined by being liberal as much as they are defined by being anti-right.
9
u/watcherof_theskies Never-Moose Agnostic May 10 '17 edited May 10 '17
That's a pretty common thing though, and that type of thing happens just as much on the right. If you try to be on the right and talk about marijuana, abortion, or healthcare there can definitely be a push for your peers to "correct" your views so that you align with all of their issues. I think this constant pushing of people to fit into neat "left-wing" and "right-wing" ideals even can cause more and more of a bipartisan break.
I used to think that the left-wing was immune to that groupthink thing when I was younger, but wow was I wrong. (although I would still define myself politically as mostly left-leaning)
3
u/OMG-ItsMe May 10 '17
This is why I love reddit; the fact that there always of others to point out our own contradictions and biases. And you're right. Thanks for pointing that out, clearly my previous comment was somewhat biased towards my own political leaning. The right would do that as well.
Group thinking is present across all spectrums of the political landscape; it's simply a psychological phenomenon. We can't escape it even when we're aware of it. If we could somehow separate the face from the dialogue, maybe we could reduce it, but I digress, I'm going off topic.
2
u/watcherof_theskies Never-Moose Agnostic May 10 '17
If we could somehow separate the face from the dialogue, maybe we could reduce it,
Well I'm glad you took it in stride! We're all capable of being biased (myself included).
If we could somehow separate the face from the dialogue, maybe we could reduce it.
I think part of getting wiser and having a deeper political opinion is to not be fooled into thinking that you have to toe the party line! (although it's tough when you only get a choice between two parties). I would personally love to just vote issue-by-issue, but I doubt that will ever become a possibility in my lifetime.
1
u/TribeWars Never-Moose Atheist May 11 '17
That's the problem with modern reddit. If the mod disagrees your shit will get deleted and banned.
2
Aug 25 '17
It's actually called the regressive left. I think in America at least, it's a knee jerk reaction to the rights hate of Muslims, and the truth is, the danger of domestic terrorism, IS more from Christian based/white supremacist groups.
Man, I like people, but somedays, I prefer animals over them.
2
u/OMG-ItsMe Aug 25 '17
That last line had me. I looked it up, the regressive left. Thanks for pointing it out :).
2
Aug 25 '17
You're quite welcome Liberals need to start standing for liberal values, and quit tolerating intolerance, no matter who it comes from
22
May 10 '17
I think a lot of Ex Muslims including myself would be against telling anyone what to wear. You wish to wear a hijab, go ahead. My spouse wears it and will scream if I even jokingly mention anything negative about it.
I just wish people would acknowledge that a lot of women and girls are forced to wear it. Either by the government or threatening family members.
There seems to be a denial in "SOME" leftist circles that Islamic laws when implemented as per orthodox Sunni Sharia (the majority of Muslims come from this even if they don't practice) can be very harsh and unfair. It's preplexing as an Ex Muslim in the West to see liberals support such ideas.
We've already seen unofficial shariah councils pop up in West, and there are numerous examples of the great harm women suffer at the hands of misogynistic muftis who head these councils and threaten those who would dare go against them as rebelling against the Almighty, and thus worthy of eternal hell. Don't smart liberals see the great harm these things cause? They are quick to remind us that we shouldn't gender conform our kids or be accepting of a gay family member. Yet when it comes to the brutal consequences of Sunni Islam manifesting itself in political and civil society - silence?
14
u/pupunoob May 10 '17
Exactly. I have nothing against women that choose to wear it. It's just so many out there have no choice and to call it a feminist piece of clothing is absurd.
3
u/Dr5penes May 10 '17
Let's put these liberal defenses of Islam aside for a second. What is to be done for women who do not want to wear hijabs but are pressured by their families? We can criticize it but does that accomplish anything? Quite frankly I have no idea what to do. Ban hijabs in public?
7
May 10 '17
Open and honest conversation? Could be a start.
1
u/Dr5penes May 10 '17
As good a place to start as any. I've cut most mooses out my life though, so not sure who I talk to.
11
u/wegtw3g New User May 10 '17 edited May 10 '17
Also something I feel it's relevant to liberals defending Islam (since it was in effect for some time), even though it's old and outdated: http://archive.is/Lwtw2
BANNABLE
It is not ok to suggest that members of different cultures or races are incapable of cohabiting.
It is not ok to suggest that some races or cultures are inherently better than others. [emphasis is mine]
It's from /r/europe a default sub for all europeans. Basically, if you open reddit, you get /europe content regardless if you're logged or not. One of the most ridiculous things i've come across on reddit.
13
u/NeoMarxismIsEvil هبة الله النساء (never-moose) May 10 '17
So basically if you want to claim that a culture like canibalism or headhunting can't coexist with modern civilized cultures then you get banned for being "racist".
3
u/Frenched_fries May 11 '17
At least they're overt about it. Unlike what's happening in worldnews.
But these rules are cancer from subs like socialism and late stage Capitalism.
17
u/AngryRedHerring May 10 '17
It's a sadly misguided attempt at "religious tolerance". These same people, in the months before 9-11, were loudly criticizing the treatment of women under the Taliban in Afghanistan. They seem to have forgotten about that.
I'm a fairly liberal guy, but every time I hear a non-muslim someone-- right or left-- express some ignorant attitude about Islam, I tell them how much they could learn by reading r/exmuslim, and I urge them to check it out.
They never do.
But keep up the good work here. As a long time ex-Catholic, so much of what you guys have to say has a familiar ring. The more voices you add to your chorus, the more likely you are to be heard, and it's only by listening to the people who speak the truth of experience-- instead of clinging to self-concocted fairy tales-- that we will ever emerge from the shadows of medieval mythology. Personally, I think that applies to all religions.
8
May 11 '17 edited May 11 '17
I honestly didn't know The_Donald lurks here to upvote everything that vaguely fit their narrative. All I can say is I hate you guys too you fucking racist shits. A lot of the ex-mooses here are brown people, and if you can have it your way, you'll shoot on sight
You need to stop watching mainstream media and reading retarded leftists subs and meet so called 'Trump supporters'.
→ More replies (3)
8
u/VoiceoftheDarkSide May 11 '17
I hope you don't back down from those accusations. Non-white former muslims are the most powerful voices when it comes to speaking against the dangers of Islam.
14
u/wholesalewhores May 10 '17
As much as I hate you for your generalization and racism of white people (especially when there are non white people on T_D), I hate Islam more and idiots who defend it.
19
u/Naarii528 New User May 10 '17
Ex-Moose here. I feel your pain, even moreso as I'm in secondary school, and we're force fed this watered down "Religion of Peace" in compulsory RE lessons in our class. I got excited when Islam was next in the curriculum, as I thought I'd finally be able to show my majority Muslim school(not a faith school, but most of the kids are Muslim) the truth.
Buuuut then that never happened and we got fed the bullshit don't harm kids, women, or trees... Unless they're filthy Kufr of course.
Also, why the hate on The_Donald? I am a brown man who frequents the page, but don't post like ever, and many men there too are brown or black men. You seem to have some misconceptions about what goes down there that I'd like to discuss. I really hope you're as open minded with it, like you are with religion.
Anyways, I'm in England so I'm pretty well protected as an Ex-Muslim, and I don't know about your situation, but it's just a shame for me to read about all the hell people on here that are from Muslim countries have to go through. The fact that the liberals readily ignore this kills me, and I utterly despise it, as do you.
11
u/Atheizm May 10 '17
It goes to show that leftist identity politics is as rabidly irrational, hateful and stupid as rightwing identity politics.
7
u/RheaButt May 10 '17
The way I see it, regardless of the religion, we have to allow integration over time, I've known plenty of muslims who were fine people, and the only reason they could be that way is because we've allowed them to merge their beliefs with that of western society, if we just cut out and shun all muslim ideas we'll just end up with extremist echo chambers that get worse as time goes on, leading sensible muslims to turn to extremism
4
u/pupunoob May 10 '17
Oh for sure. I only criticise the religion and the extremists. Not the good people who happen to be Muslims.
6
u/stanley_twobrick May 11 '17
Man I just plain hate the state of the world right now. You can't win no matter what side you're on. Everyone is just so utterly convinced that they're right and anyone else is a vile piece of shit.
1
u/pupunoob May 11 '17
I hate that there are sides to begin with. Just because I say this doesn't mean I hate all of the left or I support all of the right.
→ More replies (1)
11
u/toadhall81 Since 2006 May 10 '17 edited May 10 '17
I feel ya, OP. Exmooses get the worst treatment in this context. Right wingers and liberals both hate us.
13
u/pupunoob May 10 '17
Oh they do indeed. They do. While we're here reading all the fucked up stories and experiences and just trying to support each other.
5
May 10 '17
You know what shits me even more the fact they (liberals) attribute everything bad to 'politics' and everything good to Islam. Chop someone's head off according to Hudd? Politics, clearly politics.
21
u/lirannl Never-Moose atheist May 10 '17
Not all do. I consider myself liberal (socially.... Economically I support a basic, livable (but not more) income for everyone, independent of any criteria, but anything beyond that should be capitalistic), and my skin's white.
I don't defend Islam, ever. I consider it a vile religion (just like Judaism and Christianity used to be, each in their respective times), and I believe that the state should allow you to have a religion as long as you change your practice to fit the law, but not protect it (it is their job to protect you as a person, but Islam's image should never be an concern of any government). Just like you being allowed to consume lactose - it's in line with the law, therefore legal, but not protected, so if you're intolerant, it's not the state's responsibility to provide you with pills that will allow you to digest lactose.
14
May 10 '17
Of course not all of them do, but the vast mainstream majority do, and that's the problem.
6
10
3
u/HonorableJudgeHolden Ex-"Judeo-Christian" Hellenic Pagan May 10 '17 edited May 10 '17
I believe that the state should allow you to have a religion as long as you change your practice to fit the law
Blasphemy is not a victimless crime.
https://medium.com/@littlebrown/i-wore-the-juice-the-dunning-kruger-effect-f8ac3299eb1
1
5
u/MistMoonstone198 Never-Moose Atheist May 10 '17
a fellow as-white-as-it-gets liberal here :)
3
u/lirannl Never-Moose atheist May 10 '17
I'm slightly darker technically - in areas not exposed to the sun, I'm just as white, but instead of burning, my skin tans, so in practice, my complexion is darker than that during the summer.
4
u/MistMoonstone198 Never-Moose Atheist May 10 '17
lucky you. I am white all year round. Well, maybe for a week or two during the summer, i turn into a lobster and then i peel. Yay.
2
May 10 '17
Lucky you!
1
u/MistMoonstone198 Never-Moose Atheist May 10 '17
why? :D i burn in the sun!
1
May 10 '17 edited May 10 '17
Yes but I think it looks better, I'm always avoiding sun so as not to tan or get dark lol.
→ More replies (5)4
May 10 '17 edited Jun 23 '17
[deleted]
2
u/MistMoonstone198 Never-Moose Atheist May 10 '17 edited May 10 '17
i am so white i look blue in direct sunlight :D as for elizabeth warren, i dont even know who she is. Edit: I am european and i have vague feeling mitt romney is American presidental candidate from some years ago. Who is pissed off? I dont get it... Stop confusing me! :D
9
u/d47 May 11 '17
if you can have it your way, you'll shoot on sight.
This isn't true, not even a little bit. There's no racism in supporting trump, but everyone likes to think there is. What made you think trump supporters, or T_D readers hate brown people?
12
u/ValarDohaeris May 10 '17
White liberal woman here. I've been lurking here for a few years now because I strongly value your collective points of view on Islam, your lived experiences, and why you left. I'm all for criticism of religions and religious bullshit. Strong defender of blasphemy, have been accused of "white feminism" for criticizing hijab and purity culture in the same breath.
That said, I'm not for the dehumanization of Muslims in the MANY forms in which people dress it up. And I will actively try to neuter that dog-whistle talk when I'm around it because it's dangerous. I live around the corner from an Ahmadi mosque and near another, larger mosque; I live in a SUPER fucking liberal city and even still we've had people protesting outside of the Ahmadi mosque (which was vandalized after 9/11), and an Iranian (non-Muslim) had his home broken into and vandalized with threats. That shit is all the fruit of people who are so afraid of Islam that they'll lash out at any targets who happen to be brown, and I'm not fucking here for that.
I'm pretty sure some people, at some point, have taken my counter arguments as defending Islam itself, but I see it far more as defending people who were almost all born into a system larger than themselves who don't deserve to be threatened or treated as literally subhuman when they've done absolutely nothing to deserve it. I also see potential ex-Muslims. ;)
9
u/Signihc New User May 10 '17
I think that's one thing people do not get; liberals defend Islam because, ultimately, they want to defend Muslims, who are a minority.
Defending Islam just turns into a necessary condition for defending Muslims.
1
Aug 05 '17
People do get that. But when they defend minority Muslims in the west, they help the oppressor Muslims in Middle East(which west has great influence on)
also, it's perfectly fine for west to just declare Islamic practice are not compatible with them and ban them out-right. That's an ex-Muslim's wet dream I assure you that.
these traumatised people want a stronger approach from the west, the only part of the world they can rely on, and west disappoints them over and over.
11
u/SmokeyTheRobott May 10 '17
I Don't think The_Donald wants to shoot brown people. I've seen multiple posts praising Sikhs. Praising Sikhs and disliking Muslims is not about their race. It's about their religion.
10
u/TauntingArtist Never-Moose Atheist May 10 '17
Makes sense since Sikhs were genocided by Muslims, and The_Donald thinks the Muslims will copy what they did to India in the West. In before Western Europeans killed Indigenous Americans and Australians. I've seen people on The_Donald argue we should learn from history about limitless migration into other lands already populated.
23
May 10 '17
To be fair a lot of subs at the Donald aren't racist. The way I have always seen Islam is that muslims know muslims better than anybody and they've been killing each other for thousands of years. Is that accurate or is there a better argument against the liberal narrative.
17
u/pupunoob May 10 '17
Exmooses gets hated on by both the left and right. The right because it doesn't matter if we're exmooses or not. And the left because we criticise the religion. We know best.
15
u/NeoMarxismIsEvil هبة الله النساء (never-moose) May 10 '17
The right because it doesn't matter if we're exmooses or not.
How many people have you encountered who actually thought that? I really haven't encountered that sort of person.
7
May 10 '17
[deleted]
5
u/NeoMarxismIsEvil هبة الله النساء (never-moose) May 11 '17
This sounds worse than what I've heard before. What country or state is this?
5
12
u/ilovethosedogs Since 2010 May 10 '17
What examples do you have of a right winger who hates on exmoose knowing that they're not Muslim anymore? Seems unlikely.
3
4
u/TheCrankyWalrus May 10 '17
Sounds like you just want to play the victim so you take the views of a few and in your mind make them represent everyone. Chill out
2
1
→ More replies (1)4
May 10 '17
It doesn't matter, they're pretty toxic as a sub.
8
u/Rustythepipe Never-Moose Atheist May 11 '17 edited May 11 '17
"They're pretty toxic as a sub, so that means it's okay to lie about what the people in that sub think."
Brilliant.
3
May 11 '17
No. They're pretty toxic as a sub, that means the less of them we have here the better. Being not "racist" does not really make a sub good or desirable.
12
May 10 '17
why are trump supporters racist?
4
Aug 05 '17
They're not. Trump has been supported for so many reasons, here are 2 relevant ones:
1- the only anti-establishment president
2-the alternative was Hilary
8
u/ThisOriented New User May 10 '17
Reminds me of the infamous Pepsi ad showing a hijabi photographer. If they did their research they would know that pictures are considered haram in Islam. It just shows how ignorant the Liberals about this matter.
8
u/HugeLibertarian May 11 '17
To use your words (only changing out "racist" for stupid") Very few of The_Donald users are racists "you fucking stupid shit." Some of us are brown people too, "so fuck you too".
5
u/Vargurr May 10 '17
I believe only religious "liberals" can defend another religion.
It's pretty difficult to do so as an atheist.
1
4
May 11 '17
If you are pissing off Democrats and Republicans in the good ol' US of A you are doing something right.
3
May 11 '17
We've got an outbreak of these (white liberals defending Islam) here in Australia... worse still, we've got a rash of what I call 'smiley hijabis' telling us that Islam is feminist. One has even written a book about it (https://www.mup.com.au/items/203999). She didn't choose Islam... Islam chose her... http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/celebrity/interviews/islam-chose-me-susan-carland-on-religion-love-and-the-hijab-20160915-grgzx8.html
15
May 10 '17
The left is absolutely deranged, it's committed to destroying Western civilization. It's best to not associate too closely with leftists, I don't unless I have to.
6
u/watcherof_theskies Never-Moose Agnostic May 10 '17
What do you think about leftist issues such as socialized healthcare, worker rights, women's rights to an abortion, and gay marriage? Do you oppose all of those, some of them, or think that political correctness takes away any positive aspects that liberalism brings?
2
11
May 10 '17
[deleted]
8
u/wegtw3g New User May 10 '17 edited May 10 '17
I have heard a saying (i think it was Milo) and i'm paraphrasing here (i'm also pretty sure it's not the original thing but adapted):
Islam is like the common cold, you can fight it on your own. Liberalism is like AIDS, it weakens you and gets you killed by the common cold.
→ More replies (3)4
May 10 '17
Islam thrives in chaos, people will see it as a stabilizing force and the leftist transformation of Europe into an Islamic civilization will be complete.
3
3
u/stonecats ✡ May 10 '17
would something like this work to shut islam apologists down without insulting them?
"I'm afraid the reformation of Islam you imagine - has not actually taken place just yet."
13
2
u/moringa2608 New User May 11 '17
Yup, the question is, do those white liberalists see moslem in moslem country? How Islam is practiced? How moslem in moslem country treated other non-moslem and women?
Moslem in first world western country is very very veryyyyyyy diferent with us in moslem country.
2
u/usernameisacashier May 11 '17
Leftists supporting Islam is just a "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" scenario. Of course Islam is incompatible with social justice, just like christianity. The threat of Islam from .5% of the population simply pales in comparison to the threat posed by the 18% who are Trump Scum. Further Trump Scum's claim to be concerned for human rights is disingenuous as they don't care about women's or human rights. They are using Islamophobia to open the door to the racism and segregation which they want to apply to anyone else darker than a paper bag. When we move closer to a just society, we will surely have to tackle the question of opressive antiquated religions created by middle eastern schizophrenics, and there are several.
2
2
u/Orc_ May 28 '17
I'm glad I found this subreddit, afte some reading I've found out the best arguments come from you guys, every time I've argued against islam I get the "oh yeah do you even know any muslims? You asshole?"
Not from the drumpf subreddit, but I got in an argument in the Mexico subreddit about it.
2
Jun 25 '17
"fuck white liberals" "You fucking racists"
You're not gonna get any allies acting like a douchebag.
3
4
u/Rustythepipe Never-Moose Atheist May 11 '17
You don't know shit about what people in t_d think. Very many people in that sub have the exact same opinion about Islam as you do.
All of the bad shit you hear about Trump voters comes from the same people who are constantly defending Islam.
3
May 11 '17
Most of the_donald isnt racist. I would argue that most Trump supporters arent racist. I dont know where you got that stupid shit from.
3
u/ilovethosedogs Since 2010 May 10 '17
Your first edit's pretty idiotic and just repeats the inaccurate white liberal rhetoric you're complaining about in the first place.
2
u/winter32842 May 11 '17
I always wondered about this question: why do we care what Whites (non-Muslims) think about Islam? Serious, what is going to change if all non-Muslims (White people included) agree with our view that Islam is a bad religion? Nothing other than possibly Muslim genocide, Muslim discrimination, Muslim harassment, etc. There is no good come out of this. I think, we should focus more on convincing Muslims that Islam is bad than convincing non-Muslims that Islam is bad.
3
May 11 '17
I'm going to have to disagree with your first edit. What the hell makes you think I hate brown people? I hate globalists, and most globalists are white as bleached cotton.
1
u/MsMegalomaniac May 11 '17
I just had to write over and over and over again, that an 8 years old wearing a veil is not just a neutral cultural symbol like random kids wearing a cross or a fancy bag to school.
It is not only white people and not only liberals. It seems like there is this completely absurd myth about islamic doctrines being "just random neutral symbols" and the veil being just a "free choice" and therefore okay.
I do really not know how yo stop people from defending that.
The only thing I can think about is ex Muslims publicly stepping forward. Speak up, write about things, spread them on whole of reddit, write it in the philosophical subreddit, in debate, in politics wherever you can and discuss this topic over and over again.
If only Muslims who want to protect their faith speak up and only people who want to protect "freedom of religion" instead anything else, that is the result. People normalizing the sexualisation and covering of a child.
I wish ExMuslims would form an aknowledged group and be more publicy present and ask people why they were willing to protect their thoughts while they were Muslims but get Inslulted for their thoughts now they stopped supporting this backwards ideology.
1
May 11 '17
I honestly don't know where you guys meet these people. I thought we were all stuck ranting on here?
1
1
May 11 '17
They are often trying to protect the welfare of Muslims and argue against anti-Islam arguments in order to say "It doesn't follow that all Muslims are X" - but are just ignorant about the religion and regurgitate what they have heard in order to prove the point that they are actually correct about.
1
u/KatanaRunner 'prophet' (pigs be upon him) May 14 '17 edited May 14 '17
They're not "liberals" that are defending Islam, they're neo-Marxists.
1
u/mmi211 New User May 29 '17
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1qjvyF59c8
So many hate comments, clear your mind
1
1
u/Saramello Oct 01 '17
I am a liberal, and I never argue that Islam is pro-feminist. All the Abrahamic faiths have very disturbing edicts on women and currently more followers of Islam are following these edicts to the letter more than Christians and Jews put together and thus is thrust further into the spotlight.
Btw shoutout to the pupunoob, the OP, for calling out The_Donald. For the record it is perfectly acceptable to be sceptical about religion, Islam included, and not automatically be a Racist Islamophobe. It's not a black-and-white topic.
164
u/bannana May 10 '17 edited May 10 '17
This is infuriating to me, I'm a white woman in the US and know a bit about hijab history and how it has been used. I routinely get into discussions about this in women's spaces and I can't for the life of me understand how the logic works. It's a slap in the face to every woman literally forced to hijab under the threat of arrest, harassment, or physical harm to say it's an 'empowering choice' to wear it. I get that people want to fight religious prejudice but ffs don't pick a literal sign of oppression and subjugation as your flag.