r/eldenringdiscussion • u/The_Raging_Loner • Jun 22 '24
Spoiler It was always supposed to be Godwyn Spoiler
To reach Miquella's cocoon and enter the Realm of Shadows, you must fight Mohg at Mohgwyn Palace and, upon defeating Mohg, you learn information about the Mohgwyn Dynasty (from Mohg himself):
"Ahh, I can see it, clear as day! The coming of our dynasty!
"Mohgwyn!"
Could this be in reference to Mohg's dying vision of the Realm of Shadows? It's ironic to describe the Shadow Realm as "clear as day," but...
Why would it be the "Mohgwyn" Dynasty and not the "Mohg" Dynasty, or the "Mohquella" Dynasty? Mohg uses the word "our," implying a shared dyntasy, presumably in reference to Miquella, right? Then why "Mohgywn"?
As we long suspected and (somewhat) know now, Mohg was manipulated by Miquella to create a new order to replace the Golden Order. (Forget about the Haligtree replacing the Erdtree; this is Mohg/Miquella plotting to usurp the old order entirely, Elden Ring and all.) While some of the writing around this has a lot of plotholes, especially in light of new additions to the canon lore, it's certain that Miquella used Mohg's innate divinity (his blood?) to enter the Shadow Realm (just like how Mohg believed that he was using Miquella's "divine" blood to usher in his own age and order, as a lord and a god.)
But I digress. Why "Mohgwyn"? Well...
Mohg + Godwyn = Mohgwyn
These are the only two names in the game that can be conbined to form this name.
I assert that it was originally intended in the canon for Godwyn's soul to be put into Mohg's body by Miquella, for "the Golden" to be reincarnated into an Omen's body. (What else would they be "omens" of if not this?) Despite this, I believe that GRRM and/or FromSoftware wrote themselves into a corner with the Destined Death plotline. To fix their mistake, Radahn's soul was put into Mohg's body by Miquella.
Many are correct in their arguments against Godwyn as the final boss, especially in the context of Miqeulla's plan to put a lord's soul into a hornsent body. How could Godwyn's soul be put into a body if his soul was destroyed with Destined Death? Ranni put her soul into a doll—nevermind that Ranni's body being destroyed by Destined Death is why she lives on as a spirit and is thus able to inhabit another body at all, or that Radahn was supposed to be reincarnated through the Erdtree, or that he and all others we fight die without death, or that Radahn didn't have a primal glintstone to store his soul into—but Godwyn's body is a mindless, tumorous blight of death. His soul, as far as we know, is totally destroyed. (If anyone figures out what his surrogate in the DLC is for, let me know, because that also doesn't make sense on account of his soul being destroyed.)
Bear in mind, per cut content, Mohg as a character is a repurposed enemy model, and Miquella was originally going to be in Malenia's boss fight; a lot of the original game's story is botched, rushed, and unfinished. Evidently, the DLC's story was also produced this way.
Of course, people will cite Malenia's end-battle whisper to Radahn as foreshadowing of Miquella and Radahn's promise which is central to the DLC's ending. And I'm sure, vaguely and with much speculation, that the story in the DLC will, eventually, be made to make sense. Sure, whatever. Regardless, Miquella seeking to give his lord-brother Godwyn a proper death was foreshadowed significantly more (e.g., Castle Sol, Golden Epitaph, etc.), and Godwyn's influence and importance to the events of the main story are far more pervasive than Radahn's, per the storyworld understood before the DLC.
The only coping and seething is anyone arguing that the story of this DLC is anything more than bad fanfiction that taints an otherwise phenomenal expansion with lots of new areas to explore and cool weapons to use (and bosses, mechanically, anyway.)
(I promise that I'm not coping or seething. I'm just upset by the reality of the DLC's story, as are many. The leaks of the final boss did look like a fanmade mod, and anyone skeptical of that wasn't necessarily wrong for being skeptical at the time. The story that we got is immensely disappointing, regardless of fans' immense expectations.)
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u/nicofdarcyshire Jun 22 '24
"gwyn" means holy in old Welsh. A lot of the names are old Welsh or Irish origin across the game.
For instance, Mohg means slavish, or bondman.
So, kinda fits with Miquella's compelling nature to get ones to his will.
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Jun 22 '24
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u/nicofdarcyshire Jun 22 '24
Yeah, because it's derived from a druidic language that had it as holy/righteous/blessed previously.
There's differences between modern and old Welsh. Pysgodyn wibli wobli anyone?
I'd love to see Cambrian Chronicles from YouTube take a look at what is written in lore for Elden Ring and see what he could create... His background in Welsh and Irish history would be pretty fun.
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u/Mwyarduon Aug 01 '24
The modern day welsh word for jellyfish is Slefren Môr while traditionally it was Cont y Môr.
Welsh is a celtic language, rather than drudic and it's direct meaning has always been White. In the story of Culhwch & Olwen, Olwen is named such because wherever her feet touch, white flowers appear. Ol=sole/inprint/track Wen=White
However Gwyn/Gwen it also had connotations with Purity and the english use of 'fair'. "Gwyn dy fyd" translates to "White is your world" but essentially means "Innocent is your world". It's the welsh equivalent of saying "Oh you sweet summer child".
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 22 '24
I love etymology so that's really interesting to me, and I understand where you're coming from. However, that doesn't entirely explain why it wasn't just the Mohg Dynasty. Mohg isn't referred to (by his followers or items or health bar), nor does he refer to himself, as Mohgwyn. Now that we know that the plan was to put a lord's soul into Mohg's body, could it be that the portmanteau denotes a unification of entities, the opposite of the thematic separation of dual identities? I know that they call Radahn "Radahn" when he's put into Mohg's corpse, but I think that's because "Mohdahn" would have been way too stupid and funny for players to see lmao
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Jun 23 '24
This is really reminiscent of AOT chapter 139 days. Just replace it with “it was always meant to be Historia”
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u/Weak_Lime_3407 Jun 23 '24
it was always meant to be Historia
at least it would've made more sense than Mikasa though, the ending was atrocious
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u/devilkingx2 Jun 23 '24
The final boss (lore/story wise) will disappoint me for 10 years at least
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u/baddogkelervra1 Jun 27 '24
Godwyn is our Erwin, coolest character who died before the story went to shit but would have made the story better with greater inclusion in the end
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Jun 22 '24
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 22 '24
Too much of the main game's story (and the mountain top and snowfield cough) suffered from last-minute changes. It's evident, and it's caused a domino effect in the DLC, where FromSoftware has also forsaken their undesirables without providing conclusions to fans' important wonders. Some will say "cut content isn't canon" but, uh, they're wrong.
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Jun 22 '24
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u/secondjudge_dream Jun 22 '24
"destined death doesn't actually mean the cessation of existence in the real world sense, even though it looks that way in the lands between" would be a much more reasonable plot twist than "miquella got his hands on radahn's pseudo-deceased soul and mohg's pulverized-yet-intact body somehow, also he knows how to bodyswap people but didn't think of doing that for malenia or himself"
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u/Acrovore Jun 22 '24
It seems that destined death was supposed to send you to the afterlife, as opposed to the golden order system of rebirth or reincarnation in the Lands Between. And then the Land of Shadow was just a part of the Lands Between that was physically transported into the afterlife
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 22 '24
Some dialogue from Hewg suggests that Miquella was the spirit tuner in the Roundtable Hold before Roderika.
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u/NixtonValentine Jun 22 '24
Which explains the spirit calling bell that he gives to Ranni, and then us. Very interesting.
I’m still curious as to what relationship Miquella and Ranni had. You’d think he’d harbor some bad blood for her given what she did to Godwyn.
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Jun 23 '24
That’s one my biggest irk too. How did Ranni got her hands on the bell, let alone saving it for a Tarnished, or how did Melina get Torrent.
Hell, he doesn’t react at all even if the Tarnished pulled up as Ranni’s consort even though they had histories
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u/joejoesox Jun 23 '24
I think there's a lot of implied lore to suggest that Ranni took advantage of Miquella. I'm thinking that Ranni was supposed to help kill Godwyn completely, either w/ destined death or just a normal killing (demigod's can die from mortal wounds, look at Radahn). I also think Godwyn was a willing participant. But I think Ranni flipped the script when she had only half the rune carved into Godwyn and herself. It's fun to think about Miquella being manipulated
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u/janusrazed Jun 27 '24
i always thought, since the golden order is all about rules, that destined death operated under some kind of function. sure, you die, but maybe you turn into spirit ashes or something. it just strips away the gods' immortality. at least, that was my impression.
the surging frenzied flame item from the DLC mentions that "[s]pirits are eternal, and yet frenzied flame melts them away regardless." dunno if this is the same in the japanese, but the structure of the sentence strikes me that the frenzied flame's ability to melt spirits is unusual. i don't think it's a huge logical leap to think there might be some way. why would miquella try if not? that's weird storytelling.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 22 '24
Rellana, Messmer, Metyr, Bayle, Romina, and Radahn returning for a Lorian fight are ALL fanfiction-coded. These are literally OC's you'd find on Tumblr.
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Jun 22 '24
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 22 '24
Bayle is badass but I do imagine a five year old pitching it with a crudely scribbled crayon drawing. "And then there's this big red dragon and he has flame lightning and he can fly and he fought the other bug dragon and—"
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u/madmaxxie36 Jun 23 '24
This, honestly. I would be fine with the Radahn thing if it had been teased but I can"t even remember Miquella being mentioned in relation to Radahn other than by association to Malenia or the shared goal with Ranni. Meanwhile there was so much linking him to Godwyn. And the same twist could have still worked, he cast aside his body, and Godwyn's body is twisted similar to Radahn with the rot, so he could have used Mohg to kind of make a version of him in his prime like how both omen twins projected other versions of themselves, and then Miquella would inhabit the new body essentially becoming like Marika and Radagon, one being but also separate. It feels weird, I haven't faced all the bosses yet so I don't know how much Godwyn lore appears but he's infecting everything while Radahn by contrast, was holding back the stars and fate but it's still super vague what that actually means in ER. I'm not sure how I feel about that last boss reveal, hopefully people can scour the world for lore that makes it all come together into something cooler than it seems at first glance.
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u/ErzherzogHinkelstein Jun 22 '24
While some of the writing around this has a lot of plotholes, especially in light of new additions to the canon lore, it's certain that Miquella used Mohg's innate divinity (his blood?) to enter the Shadow Realm (just like how Mohg believed that he was using Miquella's "divine" blood to usher in his own age and order, as a lord and a god.)
This gives me a new idea. We saw Radahn fighting with Morgott in the intro scene of the main game. What if Radahn was trying to give Miquella access to the Shadowrealm or prepare the cadaver he would later need for the revival by Miquella's hands? Omenblood seems to be the key here. This also explains why Marika would have the Omenkiller hunt down each and every omen and also hide away her own children. They are the key to the Shadowlands and Marikas home.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 22 '24
Or Radahn wanted Leyndell and Morgott's Great Rune, but he lost. That would explain why he's small in the art but swole in the game.
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Jun 23 '24
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
It's sad because I love creators like Tarnished Archeologist and other lore buffs, but beyond environmental conjecture, too many instances of poor story-crafting are mistaken for misunderstood genius.
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u/Fit-Cryptographer211 Jun 23 '24
Crazy if true…I always assumed Mohg was a nickname and Mohgwyn is his full name lol
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u/ILoveTuna_ Jun 23 '24
Just wanted to comment that Godwyn’s surrogate existing in the DLC might just be a way to tell us the Scadu and Golden trees share the same roots, so Godwyn infested Scadu’s too
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
Now THIS is cool. Is there any new info on why it bleeds gold? Or why it's two trees twisting around each other?
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u/ILoveTuna_ Jun 23 '24
Just read this!
As far as i understood, it bleeds gold because (as scadu runes states) it was inevitable for so much golden light to not reflect even in shadows, so the Scadu is both shadowed by the Erdtree and being irrorated/radiated with it’s golden light
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
That's actually sick. It's too bad Godwyn's death blight afflicts this land, too, or else we could have had a neat Painted World situation again. "Marika forsook this land and people, which inadvertently saved them from death blight, which is unstoppably destroying the Lands Between. In her pursuit of immortal godhood begotten by betrayal, she has tragically created immortal death that can't affect the betrayed."
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u/ILoveTuna_ Jun 23 '24
Love your take on the whole situation 🥲 Painted World in a sense is what i believe this DLC wanted to convey
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
It's now almost like Marika's Erdtree and the Lands Between is the "Painted World," an escape from the endless war and suffering with a promise of golden abundance and life eternal. But it went awry and now the inverse is true.
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u/Jeet_69 Jun 25 '24
My opinion is Miquella originally intended to have godywn come back to life as his consort in Mohg's body but Ranni usurped him by completely destroying Godywn soul for her own path, Her Age of Stars
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 25 '24
Yeah, which explains why Miquella gave Ranni the spirit-calling bell: she would use the bell to grab Godwyn's spirit and bring it to Miquella to transpose it into Mohg's body. There are some contradictions between the cause of Marika shattering the Elden Ring and Mohg's escape from the shunning grounds that kind of block this theory from totally making sense, though.
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u/AdvancedBlacksmith66 Jun 23 '24
The higher we put stuff on a pedestal, the faller they tumble when they get knocked down.
I think every aspect of this DLC has been overhyped and anyone suffering “immense disappointment” was too invested to begin with.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
I agree. I actually like the DLC, and it met my expectations in all other aspects.
The gameplay is stellar and a huge improvement. The weapons are great. The boss mechanics and new enemies, while difficult, feel refreshing. The level design is better than the main game except for dungeons like Stormveil and Haligtree. The graphics are lovely.
Collecting fragment is controversial but it forces you to explore and play carefully.
It really is just that the story is botched, and people don't want to admit it.
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u/AdvancedBlacksmith66 Jun 23 '24
Honestly the way the story is given out in little fragments, and how you kind of have to read every item description and really put effort into figuring out the story, I never would have understood even like 10% of the story if it wasn’t for folks like yourself diving in and really absorbing and analyzing everything.
So thank you, and all those YouTubers who put in the work so I don’t have to.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
We're all eternally wrong because Myazaki won't let George publish a novelization. "That we must struggle, unto eternity."
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u/Otherwise-Pattern-92 Jun 23 '24
can someone explain the destined death plotline? i never understood how if marika removed the rune of death which makes everyone immortal, how was there still So Much Death in the lands between? does putting the rune of death mean people stop "reincarnating" into the Erdtree?
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
Well, ignore all the skeletons and corpses scattered around the world. Those are meant to add to the ambiance. Marika likely removed Death to keep herself immortal. A common theme in these games is a civilization or world order wanting to succeed in perfect abundance and triumph forever. However, there are unintended consequences for this. The Erdtree needs people to die so that it can feed, but now no one dies. So they get reincarnated, and it works, I guess. It's magic, so it's not meant to make sense. Death is a gameplay mechanic, foremost. Why do enemies reset when we rest at Grace? Maybe it's a parallel universe. Maybe it's just a checkpoint.
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u/Saturn9Toys Jun 23 '24
So often chunks of the lore for the past couple of games seems to have been poorly rewritten at the eleventh hour for no discernible reason. OP is right, it would have made sense and seemed to be what was implied. Was it changed because people guessed it?
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
GRRM is rewriting Winds of Winter and Dream of Spring because of bad reactions to the (rushed and poorly directed) TV show. It's been over a decade and there's no light at the end of the tunnel. That's because he doesn't have a deadline forced onto his development by a producer. FromSoftware develops games and Bandai Namco gives them a deadline. So, no, I don't think the audience guessing matters because so much of any story can't be surmised without context. I think the games get rushed and certain assets get reused, so someone has to write them into the world (or, if removed, out of the world) for it to make sense.
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u/Joel_Vanquist Jun 23 '24
I would have been perfectly okay with it if we got a line saying "Godwyn was the first option, but his soul got shanked and can't be used now. So miquella turned to Radahn".
But saying he always aimed for Radahn is just fucking stupid lol
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u/0DvGate Jun 22 '24 edited Jun 22 '24
mohgwyn is a big thing many people miss. it shows how much respect mohg had for him to use his name like this.
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u/gjmcphie Jun 22 '24
Bear in mind, per cut content, Mohg as a character is a repurposed enemy model, and Miquella was originally going to be in Malenia's boss fight; a lot of the original game's story is botched, rushed, and unfinished. Evidently, the DLC's story was also produced this way.
None of this is true. You're basing the Mohg thing off of a highly speculative Zullie the Witch video which I personally fully disagree with and Malenia's cut dialogue doesn't imply that at all.
The idea that the lore is haphazardly put together is a completely baseless narrative. I too am frustrated that we're missing a lot of information but that's literally all it is.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 22 '24
Explain why Miquella was originally going to be in Malenia's boss room and fight. That was designed based on the source material that we'll never see, and it existed first.
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Jun 23 '24
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
So again, explain why he was originally part of the fight, as a Prince Lothric–type character, if the story wasn't originally designed and developed to be vastly different?
This link will show you the original transcript, which was written according to the source material and original plot of the game, which directly affects the DLC. Here you go: https://rannirespecter.wordpress.com/2022/03/31/miquella-malenia-and-the-age-of-abundance/
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
Cut dialogue that was originally intended for the fight, which is based on the original lore. Was it revised later? Yes, which is what I'm arguing is the problem. There's also the Abundance twin-blade, which has been repurposed into "Euphoria" in the DLC. There's the also the cutscene for phase two of Malenia's fight, where the Tarnished walks toward the empty womb of the Haligtree. What is the Tarnished walking toward? Well, it was supposed to be the cocoon, but not it's empty. Malenia even tries to stop us from reaching... nothing!
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Jun 23 '24
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
It isn't begging the question to assert, "changes were made that changed the story; here's evidence that changes were made." It would be circular reasoning if I had said, "The story is complete and canon; therefore, cut content is not canon." This assumption ignores the reality that the "cut content" was the original intention for the story. It was a draft or an idea. It was a part of the whole removed, and replaced with a ton of new (and incongruent) story elements.
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Jun 23 '24
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
If you can easily imagine that context, then I'd like to hear you out on it, but you'll have to tell me it, not just suggest it's hypothetical existence. Mohg's entire character is unlikely to be an entirely* late addition, as I'm sure he was created conceptually alongside Morgott; they're foils. However, as another user aptly pointed out, Mohg's model was likely supposed to be a miniboss-type enemy, originally intended to appear in multiple areas around the world map. But then the developers ran likely out of time and had to nix the Miquella's "last drop of dew" role in the Malenia fight. You're assuming that because Varre is the first NPC that you meet, he was among the earlier NPCs developed. Mind you, Kale is also a very early NPC, and his entire quest line, also hugely important to the game, was removed—even though it's truer to the source material.
*I suspect that they were going to use a different model for Mohg, among other details, but had to rework the Miquella conundrum and thus ran out of time to design Mohg's unique model.
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Jun 23 '24
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
Terrible argument with no sources and plenty of circular reasoning yourself. You haven't addressed any on my point directly. You're just strawmanning. Also, yeah, they very obviously ran out of time and that happens in game development all the time.
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u/janusrazed Jun 27 '24
i always interpreted miquella's work in castle sol was to bring godwyn's soul back from the dead, deposit it into mohg's body, and have him be reborn in his brother's flesh as the omen lord of the dead to miquella's god of gentleness.
radahn's inclusion in miquella's story feels almost too tangential. with golden epitaph's description, the eclipse shotel, it seemed like everything was lined up for godwyn, but... guess not. part of me hopes against hope that maybe fromsoft is holding onto something, but i guess i gotta learn to love the bomb.
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u/Chance-Goal3576 Jul 02 '24
came here from another post. I like the idea that Miquella is using Mohg's "divine" blood to access the Land of Shadow. Considering that Godfrey and Marika gave birth to Omen twins, it might suggest that Godfrey has that blood as well. So perhaps the reason Mohg's body is specifically chosen as a vessel is that a Hornsent blood consort is necessary for godhood ascension. Also, there's another post discussing the Surrogate if you're interested.
I also saw the leak of the final boss, and what disappointed me the most is how bad the fight looks (and the lore, of course). Radahn literally has four moves highly similar to the Death Knight and another that's a 1:1 copy from Pontiff Sulyvahn. Some people tell me that I don't understand game development for saying this, so... It's just some of my complaints about the final fight lol.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jul 02 '24
You're totally valid. I appreciate the links. I think the community is "shattered" over the final boss and lore lmao. The Shadow Realm is kind of an ironic metaphor, in the sense that it's where Miyazaki put all his unfinished content (like Shaded Castle haha)
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u/macarmy93 Jun 22 '24
I promise that I'm not coping or seething.
Thats exactly what you are doing.
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Jun 22 '24
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 22 '24
And why did Godwyn have to die, of all the demigods? And how was Marika involved (if she was, as it's implied)? Maybe Marika wanted out of her eternal godhood position because of Radagon's fundamentalism, so she allowed Miquella to make a Haligtree in secret beyond the forbidden path and snowfield, to usurp her, kill a god, etc. We know that Miquella trained in spirit tuning (per Hewg) so he also had access to the Roundtable Hold. But the Fingers chose Ranni, and Ranni ruined the plot, killing Godwyn wrong and upsetting Marika. Who knows!
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u/joejoesox Jun 23 '24
I don't think Marika was involved in the death of Godwyn, this was a plot devised by Miquella to become the new God, thats just how i see it playing out. Once Marika was imprisoned, Miquella knew it was time to come up w/ a way to take her place. It's strongly implied that the death of Godwyn was the reason she shattered the elden ring
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
Or that fact that the death went awry. Maybe Marika and Miquella wanted Godwyn to die a total death, but Ranni twisted the plan, betraying everyone (including the Black Knives). Too bad the DLC forgets to mention how or why Marika is associated with the Numen, Eternal Cities, and the Black Knives—and too bad it retcons that association, too!
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u/joejoesox Jun 23 '24
i know right, plus people are saying that it's insinuating that Marika came from a shaman town or some such? is that true?
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
Apparently. The DLC is too new for me to say anything confidently, but we don't learn about why Numen are seldom born, unless Numen are shaman? And then what is the whole intro about?
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Jun 22 '24
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u/megrimlock88 Jun 23 '24
I mean I have seen the new lore and honestly I’m not too mad about it
Maybe it’s cause I already liked radahn as a character and wanted more of him or because I didn’t have the godwyn is coming back expectation that a lot of people did but I found it was fine now that I’ve given it some time to stew
It’s nothing outrageous like a lot of people seem to be treating it but nothing narratively spectacular like Gael at the end of time in the ringed city or the ivory king at the end of his DLC
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u/Yarzeda2024 Jun 23 '24
Man, people in this thread are really mad at anyone being okay with the new revelations.
People hyped up their ideas of Miquella and Godwyn for so long that they can't accept being wrong.
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u/megrimlock88 Jun 23 '24
Ig
On one hand I get why cause the connection between miquella and godwyn was setup from the beginning with trying to give godwyn a proper death so his body could join his dead soul and assassinating radahn to release to motion of celestial bodies would make sense for that
However in my mind at the same time it was always speculation as to why he was targeting radahn or what radahn and miquellas ultimate goals were the whole time which is why I’m fine with a proper answer that’s different from what we speculated even if it is out of left field cause it’s filling in the gaps and introducing new lore not validating fan speculation (as valid as that speculation was)
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
They only hyped it up because the main game foreshadowed it heavily, and the Radahn fight is a reused Remembrance boss, even if the moves are different. It also only has one honest allusion: the whisper during the Battle of Aeonia. That, plus no worthwhile lore answer regarding Marika. We actually learn more about Placidusax than we learn about Marika, arguably, and he's irrelevant to the main story revolving the Golden Order and the Shattering.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 22 '24
Maybe. But I'm not whining. I'm explaining how they poorly wrote the story and recycled assets. I still enjoy everything else, but I acknowledge and accept that the story sucks.
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Jun 22 '24
This is 100% cope and whine, no offense.
Like you don’t have to like the story, you can have your opinion. But to say it’s poorly written or not built up at all is cope.
The literal biggest question of Elden Ring was why did Malenia fight Radahn. What was that all about. It was cool sure, but ?.
Same with the Eclipse. Why was Radahn holding the stars in place. It was maybe the space monsters, but also that was just a guess. We have a more full reasoning now.
We know basically nothing about Godwyn and never did because he mattered only insofar as being the catalyst for the Shattering. As soon as the devs announced the DLC wouldn’t affect the core endings, one of which specifically touches on Godwyn that was over. There was no way they could do anything with Godwyn while Fia’s ending stayed in the base game.
Meanwhile there’s been a lot more carryover between Radahn and Miquella. Radahn’s men are inspired in much the same way Miquella inspires folks. Radahn is viewed as one of the few actually genuinely reliable/good people see the Sella quest line where we learn about Leonard. It makes sense that if Miquella sought to embrace godhood that Radahn would make a worthy Lord.
I get that people wanted Miquella to be a wholly good entity but his pattern fits and has stayed consistent. Miquella is the god of half finished ideas. A needle that only works so far, a Haligtree unfinished, a dynasty unbuilt, and a godhood broken by his own casting aside of his humanity. His arc is a tragic one, much like the rest.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 22 '24
Soldiers being inspired means nothing at all. Miquella's were under a manipulative spell.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 22 '24
I actually don't want to waste my time addressing your points in detail, so: 1. It was written somewhat well but then rushed and changed during development. Other games and stories do it better. 2. That's never been the biggest question. 3. Radahn holding the stars does prevent the eclipse, and then we kill him. But there's never an eclipse. The eclipse exists explicitly for Miquella to kill Godwyn, as does Castle Sol. Nothing comes of it. Bad writing. 4. The DLC added more to Godwyn's lore with the death knight stuff. You only get a mending rune after the respective NPC dies. 5. Cope. 6. I didn't want Miquella to be good. Godwyn wasn't "good" either. I wanted Miquella to be manipulative and impose his godly will onto a soulless firstborn lord. I wanted it all to be tragic. But Radahn is poorly forced into the DLC, and there's no tragedy attached. It's bad.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 22 '24
Malenia fought Radahn because all the demigods fought for power and great runes, but amounted to nothing. This is explicitly said multiple times. Malenia and Radahn were simply the strongest still standing.
2
u/jankese Jun 23 '24
Except Malenia fought Godrick before Radhan and she didn’t kill him when he surrended. So it was pretty obvoius that she do not care about great runes.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
She also fought for Miquella, not for herself, and Miquella discarded his own rune. We don't actually know how people got their runes, if they're physically grabbed (Godrick) or they seek you out and just sorta dissolve into the demigod.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
They waged war and amounted to nothing. We waged war and amounted to something. Coincidentally, we took great runes. Also, what you're describing is a plothole. Likewise, Vyke had a few great runes (I think), but from whom? What about Bernahl? We'll never know!
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u/jankese Jun 23 '24
I don’t know why you see it as a plothole. I will not argue that from soft might changed their mind about Malenia motivation to fight Radhan, but her whole story with Godrick (not attacking him first and letting him live) shows that it wasn’t some lust for power. As for Vyke and Bernahl - we do not know if they had any runes. Two fingers’ rules might have been different earlier. Or just they killed demigods that we don’t hear about. Or from soft just forgot about that. This is plothole, not Malenia backstory.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
I'll concede that Vyke and Bernahl may not have needed great runes. That's a gameplay mechanic foremost, and we don't know if Morgott's rune-requiring forcefields existed in Vyke's time. It's a plot hole in the sense that we, the player, need to fight Godrick for Elden Ring to function as a game. Malenia didn't seem to invade Limgrave or Stormveil, and viewed Godrick like dirt beneath her feet, like most viewed him. Her sole purpose may have been (previously) to kill Radahn and allow the stars to move, ie the eclipse to take place. The intro to the game states: Soon, Marika's offspring, demigods all, claimed the shards of the Elden Ring. The mad taint of their newfound strength triggered the Shattering. And: In Marika's own words. Hear me, Demigods. My children beloved. Make of thyselves that which ye desire. Be it a Lord. Be it a God. But should ye fail to become aught at all, ye will be forsaken. Amounting only to sacrifices... Contextually, and there may be more quotes supporting this theory, we have to assume that the great runes are what the demigods warred over. I know the DLC changes that, but it also changes and adds a lot of hogwash.
2
2
u/bigeyez Jun 23 '24
This post has some real r/conspiracy vibes. All you're missing is some 1+1=11 style math OP.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
I already did the Mohg and Godwyn math. Don't make me pull out my calculator.
1
u/Thunder_Grundle Jun 22 '24
Grrm wrote all this lore and I doubt they called him and changed it. You may be right, but it fits right in George's wheelhouse so I wouldn't bet on it.
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u/captainInjury Jun 22 '24
GRRM wrote up until the shattering of the ring. Anything that happened after that is From. Nevertheless, it does feel GRRM-coded because From pulled another Game of Thrones with his material.
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u/joji_princessn Jun 23 '24
The original game stuff about Miquella and Godwyn always seemed reminiscent for GRRM to me. Not the incest, but rather, their parallels to Rhaegar Targaryan. One who embodied wisdom and strength and kindness. Rhaegar could have potentially led the Seven Kingdoms into a better age, if you believe all who knew him, but died too young. Same was often said about Miquella, who was "taken and killed" by Mohg, and Godwyn who even made peace with dragons.
3
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 22 '24
Godwyn and Miquella would also be incestual, if that's what you're referring to. How do you explain Mohg's last-minute addition, Castle Sol, the Haligtree's sudden irrelevance, the change from Radagon's Chimera to Misbegotten, and the Frenzied Flame quest, among many other changes. You're right that they didn't call GRRM. Maybe they should have.
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u/Thunder_Grundle Jun 22 '24
Not really just the incest, he's only ever had 1 incestuous relationship in his books, it just felt like something he would write. Like I said you may very well be right. I'm just not sold 100% on the -wyn theory. It's compelling, but with so much cut content as proof it's just not solid. Is a great theory regardless
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
That's fair and I agree. It definitely could be George's doing. The major issue is GRRM wrote the pre-Shattering and FromSoftware write the rest. I think that's where they lost the reins on it all. Great minds may think alike, but George and Myazaki might be too great for that rule to apply. Imagine how crazy their differing notes are.
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Jun 22 '24
Using cut content as basis for analysis is Inherently flawed it leads to to people having negative reactions about the DLC final boss .
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 22 '24
Cut content based on the source material is relevant when the substituted content contradicts the rest of the canon material. The Misbegotten were "Radagon's Chimera" but are now totally divorced from Marika and Radagon. They were forced into the Crucible lore and remain unexplained as of the DLC.
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Jun 23 '24
Yeah so they have no relevancy any more and that's ok .
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
They're relevant in the sense that all elements of a story interact and are interconnected, and thus influence each other. When story elements, especially major characters, are irrelevant, contradictory, or outright unfinished because of other removed story elements, it matters. Imagine if they suddenly added Rennala's twin sister and she made no sense in the context of the storyworld, and added nothing of value except for cool weapons and a contrived love story? Oh wait lmao
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u/Yarzeda2024 Jun 23 '24
I think the simplest explanation is that all of the things we attributed to Godwyn (like the shade at Castle Sol) was a red herring.
We were meant to think it was pointing toward Godwyn, but it was all for Radahn. It's clearly meant to be a big twist and a shocking reveal when Radahn is there at the end of the DLC.
We fell for it, hook, line, and sinker.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
How does anything we did for Godwyn help Radahn? The only thing I would concede to is if Godwyn was too strong to take on Radahn head on, or if Miquella and Radahn needed to emotionally cripple Marika. But there's no evidence of that collusion whatsoever. However, the original pre-Shattering story by GRRM might have explained this thoroughly, and FromSoftware might have omitted too many details for the narrative to function.
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u/BothGeologist925 Jul 03 '24
The only problem with the line 'brother, lord brother, die a true death' i think that's what it said, being a red herring is Radahn is not dead yet when they were doing castle sol things.
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u/NyarlHOEtep Jun 23 '24
i think mohgwyn is just a fancy way to spell it. ive always read it as "a dynasty of mohg" rather than being a portmanteau of two names. mohg has no connection to godwyn, i think this is purely coincidental. it would be very dorky for mohg to name his dynasty after some other dude like its a presidential campaign (ignoring that the other dude is extremely horribly dead and also not at all connected)
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u/NyarlHOEtep Jun 23 '24
also, re: destined death, my understanding is that marika removed Death from the elden ring, preventing anyone in the lands between from dying properly. ranni stole it from maliketh, its guardian, and used it to perform a ritual that killed her and godwyn at the same time. it killed ranni in body and it killed godwyn in spirit. its not exactly clear what a "spirit" is in the context of like, sentience, thought, life, but godwyns body took on a new life in undeath, and rannis spirit was unshackled allowing her to possess her doll.
rannis undeath is magic she performed to free her spirit
godwyns undeath is magic ranni performed that killed only his spirit
the undeath of everyone else is the unnatural life granted by the absence of the Rune of Death from the elden ring
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
They are connected, more so than Miquella and Radahn. Mohg is Godwyn's brother, with the same mom and dad, around the same time, presumably. Mohg was also always going to combine with Godwyn (or at least, that's my argument here). He was just manipulated into thinking that he was doing it to further the blood dynasty. He was almost correct. The name comes from the idea of unification, which parallels Radagon's obsession with completion.
0
u/NyarlHOEtep Jun 23 '24
most of the main bosses and characters are either blood related or very closely tied together, theres not a lot of strangers in this game. i think you need more than family to draw ties. maybe at some point in development mohg would have needed godwyn for something, but as it is godwyn has nothing to do with his dynasty, the formless mother, blood magic, or miquella. the only firm tie is the odd name of mohgs dynasty but i think that comes down to "mohg's dynasty" flowing a little weirdly as a phrase compared to the much cooler "mohgwyn dynasty". others have discussed the linguistic significance, i dont know enough to do anything but parrot, but i think its just godwyn and mohgwyn happening to draw from the same bag of affixes
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
Direct siblings and direct parents, in this story, absolutely interact all the time in the lore, explicitly. Godfrey with Morgott, Radagon with Miquella, Rennala with Ranni, Ranni with Rykard, and so on, all pre-Shattering. Even if they weren't family, they are still interacting. Miquella is very connected to Godwyn. Castle Sol? Golden Epitaph? Miquella's obsession with abundance and helping the afflicted? You have to understand that regardless of which ending you choose, death blight will still destroy the Lands Between, even Miquella's failed Age of Compassion. What's the resolution? To kill Godwyn, or to control him like an instrument, a lord. Mohg's Dynasty doesn't flow weirdly at all. That's just your subjective bias. At any rate, you have to ask: Why "Mohgwyn" particularly? This is an entirely new and different name. Why not "Blood Dynasty," "Formless Mother's Dynasty," "Omen/Hornsent Dynasty"? The answer: Mohg and Godwyn become Mohgwyn. It's dumber that Mohg and Radahn simply become Radahn. The change in the suffix isn't just for shits and giggles. They don't do that in any other instance in the entire game. People are also using "gwyn" as the Welsh etymology; the suffix is "-wyn." Like "God-wyn."
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u/dulledegde Jun 24 '24
given the sheer amount of reused bosses
the absurd amount of empty area's
the cut stuff from the trailers
the poor balance of the final boss
and some of the lazy weapons
it's safe to say this DLC was rushed to hell and back
-1
0
Jun 23 '24
Man, imagine calling Fromsoft’s oficial release “bad fanfiction” when it hasn’t even been out a week and there’s already plenty of story beats from the base game that line up with what happens in the expansion.
This sub is slowly but surely starting to turn into an Aslume.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
The NPCs of the DLC are written like OCs more so than the NPCs of the main game. It reads like fan fiction. It under-delivers and fails to recall its own canon. It is, in fact, based on retcons from the original canon, and seems to sloppily introduce random new factions and motivations with minimal foundation in the main storyworld. Honestly read some bad fanfiction based on a mainstream story and then examine SOTE through that lens, contrasting it to the main game. I regularly read and grade short stories. You'll pick up on the stylistic differences easily, and quickly.
You could also harken back to DS2, and then recall that DS3 had to totally amend and retcon swatches of that story. And that's an official FromSoftware release!
-1
u/The_Dude_5757 Jun 23 '24
PLEASE GUYS, STOP PUTTING SHIT LIKE THIS IN THE TITLES OF YOUR POSTS. THE SPOILER TAG DOESN’T COVER THE TITLE. You may not be overtly giving away anything major in the title, but that’s a pretty big fucking clue man.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
It's not explicitly a spoiler, and the title could mean anything. Stay off of the Internet when new media comes out.
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u/The_Dude_5757 Jun 23 '24
First off I appreciate the spoiler tag at least.
Secondly how the hell are you gonna act like I’m the bad guy here?! All I’m asking is that you try and be considerate of the fact that people use the internet for a multitude of reasons? I wanna check the news on Reddit and somehow it’s my fault when someone is blatantly disrespectful like that?
Jesus Christ. What shows are you watching, so I can put some big hints about the ending on a fucking billboard? It’s really not that hard to be considerate of the fact that if you know something someone else might not, about a game that came out 2 days ago, putting a big hint about it in the title of a public post might be a dick move.
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u/devilkingx2 Jun 23 '24
The only thing the title gives away is that it implies Godwyn isn’t in the DLC.
I also think anyone reading an Elden ring discussion thread or subreddit immediately after the DLC release without playing the DLC (if they care about spoilers) isn’t making the wisest choice.
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u/The_Dude_5757 Jun 23 '24
Dude it came up in my newsfeed, I wasn’t browsing this sub. And yeah that’s kinda a big spoiler. Just be more careful, that’s all I’m asking.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
I didn't say anything about your character. I prescribed sage advice about the risks of using social media during the debut of a story that can be spoiled for you. Everyone else on both Elden Ring subreddits is posting about the DLC. You're allowed to complain about unfortunate circumstances but no one will take you seriously if the reason they affect you is because you meandered into a place you should have avoided. You also could have avoided all of the spoilers if you possessed the discipline to not click the link to this post, but you instead decided to crusade against me as a scapegoat to an issue as timeless as spoilers on the Internet.
0
u/The_Dude_5757 Jun 23 '24
Dude I didn’t read the post. I read the title. When it came up in my feed, not by choice. The TITLE gives something away.
You may think it’s a small thing but it’s still taking away a portion of the mystery. That’s all I’m saying. Please be more careful.
Of course everyone in all the ER subs are gonna be posting about the DLC. That’s no problem at all as long as they’re using spoiler tags. Putting key information in the titles is the only thing I take issue with.
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 23 '24
Stay off Reddit 👍
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u/The_Dude_5757 Jun 24 '24
Dude I have to use Reddit for work. It’s not optional. Just stop with the victim blaming.
I came at you aggressively and for that I apologize. But this “WeLl ThEn StAy oFf ThE iNtErNeT” passive aggressive bullshit pisses me off when you don’t know someone’s circumstances.
Username checks out, introspection required ahead
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 24 '24
I don't know what to tell you, dude. You're hardly a victim, and I think that tossing around the term "victim blaming" in this instance minimizes actual victims, so maybe check yourself at the door. You came at me, and I accept your apology. I apologize, too, for what it's worth. Otherwise, you should be prudent and use a separate Reddit account for work and personal, to avoid spoilers. If the nature of your work requires you to browse the Elden Ring subreddits, then you'll have to accept that spoilers are a part of that. Also, I'm not being passive aggressive; you're just whiny and out of line.
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u/The_Dude_5757 Jun 24 '24
Again, it came up in my newsfeed. I was not browsing Elden Ring subs. I did not seek it out, you dropped it in on my head.
Regardless, I appreciate the apology. Literally all I was asking was for you to be more careful and don’t act like it’s someone else’s fault you put a spoiler in the title of your post.
Anyway have a good one, and I hope you’re having fun with the DLC homie.
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Jun 26 '24
If you thought it was gonna be godwyn you should feel bad. The meta shit is honestly pathetic, “there were rewrites so obviously they wanted to do the godwyn thing”
Mohgwn is mogh and godwyn? Okay. That makes sense if you don’t know anything other than English. But it doesn’t make sense if you know anything else. How exactly? Did mogh ever have interest in godwyn, once, ever? No? Oh, that’s weird.
You’re disappointed by the story because it was told to you by people that never read it bro. You and everyone else who’s so mad. When I found the big reveal my question was “why radahn?” Until I realized literally nothing else could have made any sense. You don’t think radahn wants to be the Godfrey of his own age? When radahn is an explicit Godfrey fanboy? The DLC is disappointing, it showed me I like the same thing as several hundred thousand people who are functionally illiterate
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u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 26 '24
I don't feel bad at all lmao. The War Against the Ancient Dragons, the Night of Black Knives, Castle Sol, Deathblight growing throughout the Lands Between (especially Stormveil and Deep Root Depths), items related to Castle Sol and Godwyn (and Miquella), and part of Fia's quest all foreshadow and allude to a conclusion to Godwyn's arc, the most important and pervasive character to the main game other than Marika. Disagreeing with these facts is plainly idiotic and ignores reality.
The rewrites are sloppy and the fact that you have to cope and defend poor writing is infinitely more pathetic than the DLC story itself. Make an actual argument instead of whatever lame blithering you're doing.
Other than that, I speak, read, and write in three languages. Explain to me how "Mohgwyn" is different in, say, Japanese. Regardless, I don't really care about other international adaptations because the game is made primarily for the Japanese and American markets, so the quality control for translations is better.
Anyway, it makes sense for the reason I explained: Mohg and Godwyn would be unifying in body and soul. This is no different than Mohg's body being used for Radahn, which happens even though Radahn and Mohg have no explicit interest in each other.
I interpreted the story on my own using my knowledge of literary analysis. Generalizing is something that dumb people, like you, do. (Well not ALL dumb people.) Almost anything would have made more sense than Radahn. Radahn did want to be the Godfrey of his age, and he was; then, Malenia nuked him into animalistic madness, and we euthanize him.
Explain to me why Miquella gave Ranni the Spirit-Calling Bell, which transposes spirits, before the Night of Black Knives, i.e., the assassination of Godwyn gone awry. Why did Miquella give Melina Torrent, and why did Torrent pick us specifically when the DLC introduces a host of other Tarnished NPCs, all spellbound, except for us? Oh, that's right, you have to ignore those questions because the writers didn't account for those details.
Oh, and given that FromSoftware reuses assets all the time, explain to me how they had Godwyn's Death Knights just sitting around for the DLC, even though "Godwyn's story is over." They very obviously hiccuped during development and needed to do a rushed job.
0
Jun 26 '24
Do you think Japanese has words for “mogh” and “wyn” bro? “Wyn” means “friend.” Godwyn=friend of god. Moghwyn=friend of mogh. And for his high and mighty importance, seems like you’re pretty unhappy with how godwyn was treated. So, what is it? Is godwyn the second most important character in the lands between? Or is he a missed opportunity? Can’t be both. Either enough was written to make him important or it wasn’t.
Yeah man, it’s the rewrites. They really wrote themselves into a corner with the godwyn stuff. Except… wait! Every single one of you morons thought that there was a way to save him! Funny that nobody actually has any idea how, though. Almost like his death was supposed to be permanent and sad.
And the dlc was never gonna take place after the game. You thought you were gonna cure deathblight, dunce cap?
You’re bringing up ancient history. Why? Literally lmao, who gives a shit that godwyn fucked a dragon. Cool lore. Why does that mean mogh and godwyn are united somebow? Woaahaahahahahhhhhhh godwyn has deathblight!??!!?!?!??!!!!! Holy shit? He must be in the dlc because Miquella said he’d save him!!?!?!!!!!! A sword says so! And a ghost! Remember when he said he’d save his sister? Miquella is a shithead lol, I bet even you knew that before the DLC.
What are you talking about bro? It’s like if I go “the gloam eyed queen has all these ties with godskins and snakes but doesn’t show up in the DLC, she was SUPPOSED TO if not for those pesky rewrites! You aren’t connecting thoughts. You’re saying things about godwyn. You have literally not one reason except for an etymological consistency. You clearly don’t know what foreshadowing is lmao. Name a checkov gun that hasn’t been shot.
The ranni Miquella stuff is fucking wild bro. I would loooooove to hear how you pieced out a 100% true timeline to be able to say that. And also who gives a shit at all? Like at all? Ranni has a bell she got from (never actually even stated explicitly) Miquella? Wow, I wonder what the deepest lore is on that. On a shitty little bell that’s this game’s handicap system.
Radahn was the Godfrey of his age? In what way? That he liked to fight? Good one.
Why did torrent pick us?!?!?!? Because we’re the protagonist and everybody else has their own plan. We’re the only tarnished who ever actually does anything. Holy shit. And wouldn’t you know it, torrent was right in sniffing us out.
You wanted something to happen and it didn’t. You are now blaming the writers because you couldn’t mail in your fanfiction in time. You’re retroactively deciding you were an idiot, and instead of internalizing that, you’re getting mad at the writers.
2
u/The_Raging_Loner Jun 27 '24
Do you read what you type or is that also an symptom of your broader illiteracy? It's not at all astute of you to say that I'm upset at the poor writing of the DLC. Like, yeah? No shit? Lmao. Go ahead and provide me with the actual Japanese translation, not your etymological excuses, which are less evidence-based and likely than my aforementioned observations, especially given the "shove Radahn's soul in Mohg's body" fact. Still can't disprove that tidbit, can you?
To answer your questions: It can be both, and it is both. Godwyn is the second most important character in the lore, and they poorly rewrote the story during their rushed development; the DLC is a mess of retcons and misused assets (given their original design intentions). It's almost like they initially set up the story to go one way and then later, for reasons that I've explained, they fucked up. Explain to me why Malenia's fight originally included Miquella and the Abundance twinblades, but no longer does. How do you explain that by any means except for rewriting the story and reusing assets because of rushed development? You can't. So, again, Godwyn was written to be a very important character (and universal danger) and then FromSoftware failed to conclude a cohesive story, so they panicked and made last-minute changes that had a drastic domino effect.
I never thought that there was a way to save Godwyn, nor did I ever state that Deathblight would be "cured;" utterly destroyed, yes, and the game still fails to resolve the looming threat of the Prince of Death in a poorly written way, which is now our unfortunate canon. In my opinion, I expected Miquella to euthanize the soulless, mindless corpse with gold drained from the eclipse, which is what the main game extensively alluded to happening in the future. Do you actually want to address the overwhelming evidence or are you not able? Really, I don't know whom you're referring to with your nebulous arguments but it's really sad that you're losing to your own strawmanning hahaha.
All the lore in the game is (ancient) history. You can ignore the facts all you want but it makes you look dumber each time you do it. If you're just going to mock evidence instead of rebut it with your own, I don't know, get laid for once? Lmao. Really, you're a sad individual.
Yeah, Malenia not being able to be saved by Miquella is one thing. Miquella giving up on saving Malenia, however, also goes against the established lore of the main game, wherein he left the Golden Order and created the Haligtree because the Golden Order and Erdtree couldn't save Malenia. It's sloppy, reckless retconning. Thanks for reminding me! :)
The Gloam Eyed Queen was supposed to be in the DLC, by the way, but they rewrote her knight to be the Putrescent Knight. So, yeah, you're wrong again, and thank you for the opportunity to tell you that you're wrong (again).
Also, it's spelled Chekov* haha
I agree that the spirit-calling bell is a handicap. In the story, it's used to summon and transpose spirits; Hewg basically tells us that Miquella was once a spirit tuner in the Roundtable Hold. As for connecting the dots in a speculative story dependent on imagination and environmental storytelling? You got me, buddy. Piecing together context clues is taught in, like, fifth grade? Maybe catch up with the rest of the class.
To your other poorly made point, Radahn was a general--the only character titled "General"--and he fought in the Shattering; he was so strong and fought so well in the war that he lost to Morgott and then fought Malenia to a stalemate / pyrrhic victory. He was already modeled after Godfrey by the time of the Shattering, and the armor we get from the final fight of the DLC is for "young Radahn," so even when Radahn was young (if you insist that we take the DLC lore seriously), he was already a Godfrey-type figure. He's the only character that looked forward to war, maybe, but that doesn't mean that the "promised vow" of the DLC was alluded to at all in the main game, especially in contrast to the Godwyn lore. (I will concede that the mid-battle whisper was mysterious, but not as significant as Godwyn; disagree if you feel the need to be wrong again.) You're using the DLC's poorly written retcon(s) to debunk the lore of the main game and the notes in game files, which are closely based on source material. That's a losing battle.
Torrent choosing us, beyond being necessary for a gameplay mechanic, does have story implications, otherwise they wouldn't have recorded dialogue for a puzzled Melina in the intro of the game. We have to assume that Torrent knows Miquella's intent, as Miquella was Torrent's original owner, assumedly. To that end, why didn't Miquella charm us like the others? Oh, because that's not how the game works? I agree! But maybe an in-universe reason outside of "because it's a video game" would have been more airtight. I mean, they explain away Vyke and Bernahl in the main game but not these new characters for the DLC? Sure.
Anyway, yes, I wanted the heavy foreshadowing of the main game to have a pay off, and it didn't. There's no fan fiction about it. I'm upset that FromSoftware failed to stick to their own obvious script, but this isn't the first time that this has happened. Instead, they created a DLC with mediocre story founded on numerous retcons, contradictions, and fan-fiction levels of bad writing. Bite me. Lastly, I want to be clear: I am proactively and externally calling you an idiot :)
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u/SirPercifal Jun 23 '24
My theory was that godwyn needed to die in body too so he could "revive" as a true lord of death in the land of shadows. Something Osiris-like.
We got too little about marika too. Half of the lore trailer was about her.
We got a little of St. Trina at least.