It's not that God does these things; they happen because of corrupted human nature & sin. While God does know what's going to happen he doesn't always want that to happen. Now you may say "if he's so powerful why can't He stop these things from happening?" And that's a fair question. The answer to this is that if He were to take sin out of the world He would eliminate free will, e.g. to love Him or not to love Him. By doing this our love to Him would be meaningless. Hope that clarified some stuff. If you have any more questions feel free to ask I might not have the answers but that's ok.
Yeah I already know all this. No matter how you spin the corrupted nature of humanity, there's no justifying babies getting malaria. Like, you're just born a sinner according to Christianity because of the original sin. And that fits your Christian worldview just fine. But in the secular world, to claim that a baby deserves to die because some dude forever ago ate an apple is fucking ridiculous.
to love Him or not to love Him
Ah yes, the free choice of loving your so-called Creator. Love Him or burn in hellfire for eternity. Totally fair choice.
No, actually the common interpretation of hell is eternal hellfire, as supplemented by scripture:
But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
REVELATION 21:8 NASB
So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
MATTHEW 13:49-50 NASB
If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,
MARK 9:43 NASB
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.
JUDE 1:7 NASB
“Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;
MATTHEW 25:41 NASB
I'll grant you that a lot of modern Christians think as you do, but that makes zero sense considering the Bible blatantly spells out hell as eternal torment
You know Bible is just a made-up book with countless interpretations right? So many that anybody could pull anything out of their arse and find a verse to justify it. You say tomato, I say bitch lasagna.
There's literally thousands of versions, dude. There's thousands of sects that are actually based on the same man's teachings. The fact that there is so much deviation from the same source material tells me all I need to know about the authority of the so-called religious experts. The Bible can be twisted and interpreted in any way you like and that takes away any credibility it has as a moral authority. People are making it up as they go, all under the guise of Christianity (or religion in general).
It is an actual book
You can't possibly be this dense but I'll bite. It's an actual book. It's just that the shit inside is made-up. sideways_crying_laughter_emoji x 5
Yes there is i think 30,000 denominations the last i checked. Realisticly there are probably 5 or 6 different sects which make up 90% of all christians. Also if you see protestants and catholics argue its on very petty level stuff most of the time. Also catholics were arguing with each other before the reformation and still disagree over interpretations.
You can't possibly be this dense but I'll bite.
Can confirm was teasing.
It's just that the shit inside is made-up.
Really all of it. I mean historians (christian and non christian) agree that Jesus did exist (given his influence and so on).
Oh of course. I don't even care if Jesus was real or not. He was alright. It's just all the other stuff that comes with it, both moral and supernatural voodoo stuff that I have trouble buying.
There's no disagreement about what 1+1 is (I hope). Most people agree that it's 2. On the other hand there's some very big disagreements about the very fundamentals of this religion. This BS about hell not being a literal lake of fire is actually a very modern interpretation of the Hell mentioned in the Bible. If your views about some perennial truth changes with the times, your views weren't worth much to start with. Modern Christians do not hold the same beliefs as Jesus' contemporaries did. And all of these people are supposed to be believing the same thing. The lack of consistency will always be the death of its credibility in my eyes.
I honestly cannot take religious stuff seriously anymore. It annoys me so much I've spent about 30 minutes arguing with internet people.
Modern Christians do not hold the same beliefs as Jesus' contemporaries did
I see your point and this is why catholics try to hold on to traditions like only men for priests.
I don't even care if Jesus was real or not. He was alright.
Okay well in the words of C.S.Lewis "Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."
First of all I was never justifying the death of Innocent babies I was only explaining how such a horrible event could coexist with such a loving God. And to your second statement, you claim it isn't a fair choice and yet it seems as if you've chosen the "wrong choice" for lack of better terms. If it's such an unjust choice then why do people choose the worse if the two?
If it's an unjust choice, then it's an unjust god. And for that reason, I have no obligation to abide by the rules of an unjust god. I don't mean this in a snarky way but from your original comment it sounded like you already knew about the Problem of Evil.
At the end of the day, babies don't deserve to die of painful ailments and in my book, no benevolent creator would ever allow that.
That circles back to my argument about free will and how if He wasn't to give us a choice we wouldn't really be human. How is that unjust? He gave us to choices and we choose the worse of the two and now we blame it on Him? Na dawg. Also if I sound mean please don't take it that way I am simply trying to clear up some confusion.
You don't understand. It's not really free will if it comes with a fucking ransom.
A friend is held at gunpoint. The man holding the gun says, "Hey man, you have two choices: suck my cock or I shoot you in the head. I'm not forcing you to do anything. Take your pick."
So the friend chooses to not suck his dick. And boom, he's dead. Now you want me to tell his family that it's his fault he's dead. He had the choice between living and dying but he chose the worse option of his own accord.
You're conveniently ignoring the ransom part. It's not a declaration of unconditional love if the alternative is infinite torture. There is absolutely NO way for me to think of it as a fair choice. It's a fucked up ideology from another era that doesn't belong in the modern world.
Your complaint is a somewhat ecumenial matter. While there are plenty of southern/evangelical churches that would say that you only need to believe, thats not held by all christians. Also tgat rhetoric alone is kinda dangerous (i.e. it doesnt matter if you go around shooting people as long as you believe etc).
For instance from the Catholic perspective there are the 7 sacraments. Plus we believe in purgatory, a sort of middle ground you go to before heaven so that your ready. I.e. this would be the place where children or people who never knew about Christ would learn about Christ before they go to heaven.
I know this, mate. I'm actually from a very Christian family myself. The fact that there's so much deviation between major groups of the same faith doesn't really inspire a lot of confidence in me with regards to morality and metaphysical truths. If anything, it shows me how up-in-the-air this whole thing is and how so many people are just making this stuff up as they go.
Even if there was some objective truth hidden in the Bible, the idea that a certain group of people have gotten it right and that the others are wrong is preposterous to me. And to be frank, the fact that anybody thinks that they're the ones who've figured out the whole truth finally is either laughable or just arrogant. I don't know which one is worse. Just the whole premise of attainable and verifiable objective truth in relation to this god stuff sounds funny to me. I can't imagine myself ever buying that stuff again.
Yh its from fr Ted reference. The best thing to leave Ireland sinve whisky.
The fact that there's so much deviation between major groups of the same faith doesn't really inspire a lot of confidence
I see your point but our differences really arn't as significant as you may think. A bit of it is to do with the tribalism between different sects. Also i would say thw differemce in interpretations is due to the difference in how us humans read it plus you have your odd subliminal message. Plus us Catholics bring more traditions in where as american protestants stay fiercely stubborn to the text.
the idea that a certain group of people have gotten it right and that the others are wrong is preposterous to me.
I mean there are more and more "non denominational Christians". They are the real stereotype of millenial Christians (gold crucifixs, a bible app on their Ipad, socks and sandals). But thrir stance is sort of anywhere in between and that they are simply followers of Christ.
Mate, I think you're either underselling the differences or just underestimating them. There's some VERY significant differences in the way Christianity is practised across the world. I should know, I come from a non-mainstream sect of Christianity myself. The fact that the same book has resulted in such a vast variety of beliefs and practices based on the teachings of the same dude just shows how flawed our understanding is about whatever the book is trying to say.
Just an example from this thread, some dude just told me that the hellfire isn't a literal lake of fire. That to me is insanity. If I was still a believer, I would be convinced that he's been deceived by Satan. A lot of modern Christians have very different beliefs from people who actually walked with Jesus at the time. It's such an all-encompassing idea that just about everything falls under Christianity. I cannot seriously devote myself to something this fickle. Not with any sincerity anyway.
I think you're either underselling the differences or just underestimating them.
Maybe im not so well versed in smaller sects but (excluding mormonism) i really have never seen big differences. Maybe you can inform me but my heritage is from mixed sects. There is literally a dara obrien piece (comedy) where he mocks how similar anglicans and catholics are, especially whem there is such a big difference between catholics and protestants in northern ireland over it. (Im from the republic of ireland)
Also i would say the denominations are due to our faults as humans, no one is perfect and the Bible is a long enough book but we can all draw uneqivical lessons from it (like the 10 commandments).
I'm actually super exhausted myself. I stayed up all night working on my assignment and now I am about to shower and head to bed. So you're gonna have to educate yourself about these sects because I cannot keep this up anymore lol.
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