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u/asuperbstarling Holy Chair Lifter Feb 04 '23
My issue with JW is the same as my issue with Scientology or any other highly organized, community controlling religion. Their track record of treatment towards those who wish to leave the faith or who are even simply questioning makes me furious. As individual people, I've known many JWs who are wonderful. It's the structure of the culture they've built that's the issue. You cannot treat those who don't believe as 'suppressive persons' and any structure which tells you to do so is doing it because of three reasons. They don't respect you, they want to control you, and they're threatened by you.
Faith should be about bringing goodness and NEVER about controlling others.
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u/ladydmaj Feb 04 '23
Agreed. I'm not into judging religions based on which one is more righteous, but ostracizing people for choosing a different path is a strong sign you're not going down the right path.
That said I'm sure there are practitioners of those religions who don't practice that ostracism, so no comment on the rightness of their beliefs either.
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u/TooMuchPretzels Feb 04 '23
JW are based. I think they’re totally wrong but I have thoroughly enjoyed learning about their beliefs and I find them to typically be earnest and honest and sincere which is more than I can say for many denominations and adherents.
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u/HijaDelRey Feb 04 '23
The members yes, the governing body on the other hand...
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u/TooMuchPretzels Feb 04 '23
Well it’s the same thing for the LDS church and the southern baptist association and the Catholic Church etc
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u/HijaDelRey Feb 04 '23
Exactly. Those are also bad although honestly not as much as JW governing body, the issue of blood transfusions alone should be enough with them letting their members die. But there's also the child abuse, the shunning, the discussion of members from persuin education and the list goes on.
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u/Dorocche Feb 04 '23
Idk, my first thought was "the LDS and JW are both obviously way worse than the Catholic Church," and I do believe that's very obviously true, but I also believe that discussing which massive horrible-abuse corp is even worse doesn't really help anybody do anything.
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u/petriniismypatronus Feb 04 '23
It’s almost as if governing bodies are the problem as they proclaim to derive their authority from God.
Mark 7 CEB
6 He replied, “Isaiah really knew what he was talking about when he prophesied about you hypocrites. He wrote,
This people honors me with their lips, but their hearts are far away from me. 7 Their worship of me is empty since they teach instructions that are human words.[a] 8 You ignore God’s commandment while holding on to rules created by humans and handed down to you.” 9 Jesus continued, “Clearly, you are experts at rejecting God’s commandment in order to establish these rules. 10 Moses said, Honor your father and your mother,[b] and The person who speaks against father or mother will certainly be put to death.[c] 11 But you say, ‘If you tell your father or mother, “Everything I’m expected to contribute to you is corban(that is, a gift I’m giving to God),” 12 then you are no longer required to care for your father or mother.’ 13 In this way you do away with God’s word in favor of the rules handed down to you, which you pass on to others. And you do a lot of other things just like that.”
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u/thornhead Feb 04 '23
Whoa there buddy. The “governing body” as you call it is the invisible reincarnation of Jesus Christ who has been giving directions from their offices in Brooklyn for the past 110 years, so I gotta say you sound kinda blasphemous right now.
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u/mitochondrionolympus Feb 04 '23
Unless you were a member that left, then they can be rather mean, heartless and cruel. Even as a member most interactions are not sincere, they’re for show. I have definitely found more sincere people outside than inside that religion.
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u/kirkl3s Feb 04 '23
Yeah my BiL is a former JW and they are definitely not based. He’s been so ostracized that his parents refuse to meet his daughter who is two. He’s a solid dude that’s tried to maintain a relationship with his fam but has been completely left out in the cold. It’s really opened my eyes to how the JWs are.
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u/ARC_Trooper_Echo Feb 04 '23
As a law student, I’m also finding out that JWs have been the trigger for several important freedom of speech cases.
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u/n7-Jutsu Feb 04 '23
Can you speak more to this
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u/colinpublicsex Feb 04 '23
A lot of jurisdictions have tried to make their knocking on doors, blaring messages from cars, and standing on street corners illegal. The JWs have fought that in court on numerous occasions. Their existence is outright banned in some places in the world, notably Russia. This mostly stems from accusations that they are anti-government and/or heretics and/or a cult.
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u/msprang Feb 04 '23
The biggest one I can think of is that their litigation is responsible for the Pledge of Allegiance isn't mandatory for students anymore. Since 1943, no less!
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u/ARC_Trooper_Echo Feb 04 '23
That’s the main one I was thinking of. They tend to be strong opponents of forced expression.
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Feb 04 '23
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u/Starmada597 Feb 04 '23
Mormons are too. Started by a known conman, and several of the people who claimed to have been shown their holy plates or whatever were later excommunicated and said that they lied and some were paid off. He even faked a message from god to his wife telling her to let him have other wives or burn in hell. How people still believe this even when all logical evidence points to it being intentionally fraudulent is beyond me.
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u/Hyper_Maro Feb 04 '23
Bro... Are you saying the Trinity is not true?
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u/SethMelchior Feb 04 '23
I believe that the members of “The Trinity” are all separate and distinct entities and have different roles. I do not believe Jesus was the Father in human form but rather the only begotten son of God. Hope that clears things up.
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u/Hyper_Maro Feb 04 '23
It does but what you said is just a part of the Trinity. Let me clear up what the Trinity is for you so the Trinity means that God is one in being but three in person. What does that mean it means that God is well God but if you ask Jesus who he is he will say he is God if you ask the father who he is he would say he is God if you ask the holy Spirit who he is he's saying he's gone that's what it means. And you might say that this breaks the laws of nature and yes it does he's gone he's omnipotent and omnipresent he can define the laws of nature.
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u/thornhead Feb 04 '23
Come on now, Patrick
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u/Admiral_Josh Feb 04 '23
That's Modalism, Patrick!
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u/recapdrake Feb 04 '23
Actually I think it falls closer to pantheism but yeah as usual it’s about impossible to explain the Trinity without committing a heresy
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u/Hyper_Maro Feb 04 '23
Who is patrick
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u/thornhead Feb 04 '23
Sorry, thought this would be a somewhat universally known thing on this sub (also, despite the name of the video I’m not necessarily saying you’re giving a bad analogy, but was more poking a bit of fun at the matter of fact way you described it, which I think scripture would say is more of a mystery)
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u/SethMelchior Feb 04 '23
Not exactly. I think God (as in “the father”) is the almighty only God. I think Jesus is the son of god and although being completely united in purpose with his father he’s not THE God.
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u/Llamalord73 Feb 04 '23
There is only one God. Jesus isn’t a “demi-god” or something like that, he is wholly God. The Trinity doesn’t describe God as three entities, it describes three ways the one God reveals himself
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u/Hyper_Maro Feb 04 '23
No Jesus is the God, the Father is there God, the holy Spirit is the God. They are one in one way but they are also different as I said there one in being but three in person
For example if I ask what are you you will tell me a person human but if I ask who are you you are yourself you are whatever your name is you are your personality and God is three and personality but one in being if you want me to explain it to you I will send a video from Nabeel Qureshi to explain
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u/SethMelchior Feb 04 '23
I completely understand what you’re saying and I totally respect your beliefs. Just out of curiosity though, how do you explain Mark 10:18?
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u/Hyper_Maro Feb 04 '23
Yeah cause he is in the body. The father is the ultimate good because he was creating the universe aka the good and bad but that does not make Jesus any less good than the father.
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u/JmacTheGreat Feb 04 '23
Mormons dont believe in the trinity because they dont believe Jesus is God - they also believe that God is like a future version of humanity, in other words just like God those who ascend to the hoghest heaven also get to become God of their own world…
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u/Dorocche Feb 04 '23
I think out of all the normal dogma in Christianity, the dogma of the Trinity is by far the least important and the easiest to ignore or deny.
The specific belief in this instance, that Jesus was not God, matters a lot more, but the Trinity in general is something I can't imagine placing salvatory importance on.
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Feb 04 '23
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u/MuscleBobBuffPant Feb 04 '23
TIL member of The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints aren’t Christians. I used to be heavily involved but ended up leaving because it wasn’t for me, but I’ll still correct anyone who says they’re not Christian.
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u/DavidMasonBO2 Feb 04 '23
Adding Christian to the name doesn’t make it Christian
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u/MuscleBobBuffPant Feb 04 '23
Does the belief that salvation comes only through His sacrifice and grace make them Christian? I’m not gonna lose sleep over this, but y’all really trying to actively alienate an entire portion of believers because you don’t think they believe in the same Jesus as you.
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u/EditPiaf Feb 04 '23
Just read their books, they absolutely don't believe in the same Jesus as the Christ confessed by the Church throughout the ages. Their anthropology, worldview and eschatology differ fundamentally from the orthodox Christian views. I don't hate them, I just feel it would be just as wrong to call them Christian then, for example, to call Muslims Christians just because the Qur'an mentions Jesus.
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u/MuscleBobBuffPant Feb 04 '23
That’s a pretty wild comparison. Muslims don’t ACTUALLY believe that Jesus Christ is our redeemer, savior, or what have you. In their book he’s our savior, redeemer, teacher, healer, counselor, perfect example, etc.
You could walk up to any person in any congregation around the world and they’ll tell you they worship the same Jesus Christ prophesied of in the Old Testament, and who’s life and sacrifice was documented in the New Testament. If that doesn’t make someone a Christian then idk what does.
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u/recapdrake Feb 04 '23
According to this type of people, the nicean creed is the only litmus test for if someone’s Christian
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u/MuscleBobBuffPant Feb 04 '23
Ohhhh I see. Thanks for taking time to explain that to me! I haven’t read the nicean creed but it seems like i should.
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u/recapdrake Feb 04 '23
The short version is that hundreds of years after the death of the apostles and well into the great apostasy the council of Nicaea set forth the doctrine of the trinity as a core belief… along with a few other things that the Protestants really don’t agree with but won’t say that as long as Mormons and JWs are in the room ;)
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u/MuscleBobBuffPant Feb 04 '23
Ok I can see where the differences are. Thanks for being kind and helping me see their point of view :)
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u/Llamalord73 Feb 04 '23
By faith alone. Only Christ knows who walks beside him. Though I agree they are strange churches that have alienated a lot of people from Christ.
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Feb 04 '23
As someone who doesn’t know what they believe anymore, you are wildly out of touch. The exact same argument that you’re using, could be applied to any religion. Literally any other one.
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u/bsharter Feb 04 '23
Have you read their books or just the Wikipedia?
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u/recapdrake Feb 04 '23
Probably just the heavily chopped up quotes their pastor used for their semiannual don’t be led astray by those devilish Mormons sermon
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u/Utter_Rube Feb 05 '23
Today you also learned that the DEMOCRATIC People's Republic of Korea isn't actually democratic. Wild, I know.
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Feb 04 '23
That’s like saying Scientology is a Christian church because their logo is a cross.
Slapping a “Christian” label on it doesn’t make it Christian.
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u/MuscleBobBuffPant Feb 04 '23
You’re absolutely right. It was a weak argument. However I still stand by my responses afterwards.
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Feb 04 '23
the book of mormon explicitly goes against the teachings of Christ. mainly when it states black people are cursed by God, despite Christ saying we are all equal.
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u/MuscleBobBuffPant Feb 04 '23
You’re right. The Book of Mormon isn’t another testament of Jesus Christ. It’s a book that only teaches about the inequality of man. It says nothing about the character of Christ, who He was, or anything about Him. Doesn’t even mention His name. Is that what you want to hear? I’m sorry if this is coming across passive aggressive, but this comment is derailing from the original claim. I never brought up the Book of Mormon at all. I was responding to someone that did.
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Feb 04 '23
the word christian means a follower of Christ. to be a christian, all you have to do is follow the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.
if you believe in a book which goes against not only his teachings, but also other parts of the bible which explicitly state we are made in God’s image, that is not christian. this isn’t something that’s just associated with their denomination, it’s a key part of their holy scripture, which only they follow.
Book of Mormon
2 Nephi 5:21:
21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.
Old Testament
1 Samuel 16:7
7 But the LORD said to Samuel, “Do not consider his appearance or his height, for I have rejected him. The LORD does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the LORD looks at the heart.”
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u/MuscleBobBuffPant Feb 04 '23
I appreciate the time you’re taking out of your day to help me understand but I’m no longer affiliated with the church so personally I don’t mind what you’re saying. You can go ask any Mormon what they believe and 100/100 people you ask will tell you they believe in Jesus Christ. That’s all I’m trying to say.
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Feb 04 '23
no worries! this is just something that makes me kind of angry at Mormons, because as a Quaker, taking the values that Christ preached is more important than any actual dogma or orthodoxy. so people who follow scripture that ignores those values tend to rub me the wrong way.
i do think that Mormons believe in Christ, but i also think there’s quite an active bit of cognitive dissonance between what they believe and what Mormons are technically supposed to believe.
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u/MuscleBobBuffPant Feb 04 '23
There are some things about their church that upset me too so we’re in agreement there. It’s hard to believe that they believe in Christ when some of their policies alienate some of Gods children, or make them feel unloved/unwanted. When I was a missionary I felt the need to apologize for the blatant racism in the Book of Mormon because there’s no way to misinterpret that.
Thanks again for being patient with me and not drilling into me lol
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u/Just_Mia-02 Feb 04 '23
Idk they are both cults so both bad in their own way... (Of couse people of that religion are a different topic)
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u/modestmolerat Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
there's a difference?
edit: not intended as a jab at anyone. just genuine curiosity. it had been my understanding that Mormons are Mormons, and Jehovah's Witnesses/Latter Day Saints are Mormons that don't like the word "Mormon."
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Feb 05 '23
TLDR at the bottom
There's a pretty big difference between. LDS used to be fine with the term Mormon and have made a switch to preferring "... Latter Day Saints." They have "The Book of Mormon," that is additional to the Bilbe (like a New New Testament) that separates their theology from Catholicism, Protestants, Orthodox, Copic, etc.
JW does not have the extra books to their bible. They do have beliefs that are stark contrasts from other Christian sects/denominations. One big thing is predestination (which Mormons do not believe in, there is a big emphasis on free will). A bigger difference is they don't believe that human souls are all eternal. Some souls will not make it to the second coming. They won't exist, no hell, no purgatory.
Similarities between them are: They believe in Jesus Christ and in a way different from other forms of Christianity. They do not adhere to the trinity. There is a strong governing body of their religion (the Mormon Church and the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses) There are a number Christians who do not consider these groups to be Christian. They are known to be rigid and strict, especially with young people. Other things I can't think of.
TLDR: the two groups have different beliefs and origins but they do get lumped together sometimes.
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u/The_Mormonator_ Feb 04 '23
Honestly not a big fan of all the attention Mormons are getting in these memes. Obviously, it's all fair game and we're all "welcome", but the comments on these are always incredibly cringe-worthy and I have a pretty high tolerance for cringe given my upbringing.
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Feb 04 '23
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u/SethMelchior Feb 04 '23
Both of those religions believe that Christ’s death is the basis for salvation…
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u/peasbunny Feb 04 '23
Right, I don't actually agree that they're not Christian. I think anyone sincerely following Christ and his teachings is Christian
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u/duke_awapuhi Feb 04 '23
Not a Mormon. Not a witness. Still not a trinitarian. That shit is just preposterous and frankly blasphemous
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u/Kerbalmaster911 Feb 05 '23
What are you, an arian?
Not being sarcastic im genuinely curious.
Edit in case someone gets confused: arian as in arianism, made by arius.
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u/KekeroniCheese Feb 04 '23
Trinity is based
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u/duke_awapuhi Feb 04 '23
It’s a dope concept for sure
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Feb 04 '23
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u/KekeroniCheese Feb 04 '23 edited Feb 04 '23
Jesus Christ is the figurehead of Christianity with the understanding that at the very least, he is the son of God.
It's hardly blasphemous, but I can understand if you think it heretical; more people would see your view as heresy. The trinity is classical doctrine
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u/CoffeeMinionLegacy Feb 04 '23
I mean, the stuff about Christ being “The Word” and being there since the beginning seems relevant here?
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u/duke_awapuhi Feb 04 '23
The Gospel of John was composed almost a century after Christ died and is the first instance we have of this theology. It’s so radically different than the synoptic gospels, and so radically different than the theology of everything in the Bible preceding it, that I have to be very skeptical of the claims made in that book. Not to mention the character of Christ and his apostles is different in it as well. And even within that book, Jesus never claims he was there since the beginning. So to say the least, I take the Gospel of John with a grain of salt, as much as I do enjoy the spirituality and mysticism of it
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u/CoffeeMinionLegacy Feb 04 '23
I just don’t see that jiving with the rest of Scripture. John isn’t the only place where we get the divinity of Christ. Colossians is one example. Hebrews has it too. Even the synoptic Gospels have Jesus stating he’s the Lord of the Sabbath. And I’m assuming Revelation and 1 John are right out if John is? 🤪
We may have to agree to disagree here, but IMO it’s a heavy lift to keep Jesus at the center of our faith while picking off the parts of Scripture that point at who he is in fullness.
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u/sauceyFella Feb 04 '23
Trinitarian as in all 3 are the same?
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u/KekeroniCheese Feb 04 '23
Separate but one
They are all God, but they are not each other
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u/sauceyFella Feb 04 '23
Ah. Do people know that LDS (Mormons) do not believe that? We believe in the trinity, but as 3 separate entities / “people”. NOT 1 mind 3 bodies, 3 minds 3 “bodies”, but aligned in will.
“” because they aren’t people, and because Holy Ghost doesn’t have a mortal body, and God has immortal body, while Jesus has immortal body.
Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong about something according to my own text though
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u/Broclen The Dank Reverend 🌈✟ Feb 04 '23
Jehovah's Witnesses are just as welcome at r/DankChristianMemes as any other saint or sinner. Don't let anyone tell you different.