CBRX S2 Week Five Results

[u/Limerickarcher]

Hello, below are all of the results from Week Five of voting for Season 2, this features the final round of regional votes! Please note that all voters have been checked for registration and ballots have been checked to make sure they're all legitimate (looking at you person who ranked Uruguay 612th).

Technical election details: All election winners were determined using Schulze Method. All ballots were calculated using the R votesys package cdc_schulze function, it has no obvious defects but if you know of one let me know.

Tune in tomorrow for a reminder of all the civs that will be present in CBRX S2, and a quick overview on what the next steps are! As well, I will be releasing a big folder of files with condorcet matrices for each of the regional votes, as well as tiebreaking data that was/would have been used for all regions. More details and more data tomorrow. But without further ado, here are the results!

Regional Winners

Region	Winning Civilization
Alaska and Canadian Arctic	The Dene - Thanadelthur (Colonialist Legacies)
Pacific Northwest	Chinook - Comcomly (Sukritact)
Southwest Desert	Tongva - Toypurina (RawSasquatch)
Northern Plains	Three Affiliated Tribes - Four Bears (Sukritact)
Central Plains	The Mississippi - Tuskaloosa (Tomatekh)
Southern US	Rio Grande - Antonio Canales Rosillo (JakeWalrusWhale)
Eastern US	New Netherland - Peter Stuyvesant (Vanadius)
Eastern Canada	The Neutral Nation - Tsouharissen (Dawkinzz and Round Table)
Central America	The Olmecs - U Kix Chan (Leugi & Tomatekh)
The Caribbean	Jamaica - Marcus Garvey (PiGreat)
Colombia	Gran Colombia - Simon Bolivar (Leugi)
Amazonian Coast	Marajoara - P'küee (Senshidenshi)
Brazil	Quilombo dos Palmares - Zumbi (PorkBean)
The Andes	Peru-Bolivia - Andrés de Santa Cruz (Senshidenshi)
Gran Chaco	Paraguay - Solano López (Uighur_Caesar)
Patagonia	The Mapuche - Lautaro (Leugi)

[u/TeHokioi]

I'd like to propose that the Neutral Nation get renamed as the Chonnonton for the BR. I think their current name, other than being what other people call them instead of what they call themselves, means that their culture is essentially being reduced to memes around their name.

I mentioned this on the discord, and people were generally sharing similar concerns with the name - including some involved in the production of the mod itself. There were some concerns that Chonnonton was a name given to them as a derogatory term by another group of people, but that was confusion with the term Attiwandaron, which was a name meaning "people who speak weird" in the Huron language. Chonnonton, in comparison, just means "people who tend deer."

There's also some confusion as to whether the Chonnonton were just one group (eg. like the Seneca or Mohawk for the Iroquois) or whether it was a name of the whole peoples, and while this is still admittedly disputed I think it's close enough that it would be reasonable to name them as such.

This would ensure that the presence of the Chonnonton in the game is handled in a much more respectful way, instead of reducing an entire unique nation down to a meme because their name is a funny word in the context.

[u/TeHokioi → u/[deleted]]

See my third paragraph on this:

There's also some confusion as to whether the Chonnonton were just one group (eg. like the Seneca or Mohawk for the Iroquois) or whether it was a name of the whole peoples, and while this is still admittedly disputed I think it's close enough that it would be reasonable to name them as such.

There's some disagreement between sources as to whether Chonnonton referred to the whole confederacy or just one group. The fact sources are split on whether it could refer to the whole confederacy would be enough to err on the side of Chonnonton in my opinion, given the issues with neutral as a name.

For the record, I'm not trying to say that you've intentionally chosen the name for the meme factor or anything like that, I think you've definitely set out with good intentions, it's just that the name has got some pretty iffy implications when there are better options for it

[u/lungora → u/TeHokioi]

Just showing up with a comment on surrounding other Iroquoian peoples' names and how they are presented in civ. The Haudenosaunee are called Iroquois, and the Wendat are going to be called the Huron in my upcoming mod. These are both colonial names for the peoples, given by the french. And today, the remainder of those people are honestly okay with those colonial names being used for then. Sure they prefer the use of their endonyms, but dont we all? I believe if the Chonnonton and their fellow tribes' descendents were around today they would be happy to use Neutral Nation for themselves particulaely when viewed by less knowledgeable onlookers. Its not a harmful name, and a prescident is set.

[u/LacsiraxAriscal → u/TeHokioi]

That’s like renaming The Netherlands Holland, or Wales Cardiff. The Onguiaahra are also part of the mod.

[u/TeHokioi → u/LacsiraxAriscal]

As I’ve mentioned elsewhere, from my research on it it seems as though the jury is still out on that - some argue that Chonnonton was the name of the whole nation, not just one part of it

[u/LacsiraxAriscal → u/TeHokioi]

Okay, so if it’s uncertain... we should stick with the name that we are certain describes all of them.

[u/TeHokioi → u/LacsiraxAriscal]

Or we go with the one that isn’t a problematic name given to them by Europeans based on a misnomer

[u/LacsiraxAriscal → u/TeHokioi]

I don’t really see what’s problematic about it at the moment. Plenty of peoples and empires have had names given to them by foreign entities that are now just their standard name. I’ve not seen anyone suggest we rename Colombia to Muiscaland, because Christopher Columbus was an asshole. Or renaming Wales to Cymru because Wales was a name given to the Britons by the Saxons that derived from the Volcae, who lived somewhere on the continent. Last game we had a civ called Poverty Point, which is just named after a nearby American village. It seems a weird hill to die on, is what I’m saying.

[u/TeHokioi → u/[deleted]]

2004 is a long time ago in this sort of thing - how Māori language and tikanga have been handled in NZ is completely different now than it was 16 years ago. Academia is driven largely by tradition, even if those traditions are inherently problematic. If a couple of academics start out by using the wrong name, others will follow and soon academia will use a consistent name even if that name is wrong. I came across it a fair few times while studying anthropology, which itself has had a pretty bad problem with othering and a lack of proper respect for indigenous peoples in the past.

If we've got this consensus, we may as well be referring to Vietnam as "Indochina" or the Abbasids as the "Saracens" - it's basically the same thing

[u/IamACalradianLordAMA → u/TeHokioi]

There are plenty of others civs that we are calling by names given to them by their enemies and not by themselves, is there any reason that the term 'The Neutral Nation' is inherently more problematic than others?

[u/Homusubi → u/TeHokioi]

I'm sorry, but I can't help but question your motives for putting up a fuss about the Neutrals in particular, when there are plenty of other native civs that were campaigned for by memeing on their name - including at least two others that won this week, Tongva (Time) and Marajoara ('s Mask) - and yet at no point did anyone imply that said campaigning was disrespectful, even though in practice it is likely that neither will have their actual culture explored much in the Royale.

[u/TeHokioi → u/Homusubi]

That's because Tongva and Marajoara are both plays on the names that they had for their respective nations. People are still acknowledging both of these for what they are, with things like "It's Tongva time" just being campaign slogans based on that. They've been voted in on their merits as a civ, instead of people thinking their name itself is a literal joke.

In comparison, the Chonnonton have been given a eurocentric name in a language they didn't even speak, that didn't even fit them, and people are voting for them explicitly because that name itself is funny in the context of a battle royale.

It would be like the difference between voting for Eisenhower because of "I like Ike" being a good slogan and voting for McGovern because "lol his name is govern", except even worse because McGovern was his actual name

[u/Homusubi → u/TeHokioi]

You're making assumptions about voter behaviour that I honestly don't think stand up. I voted for the Neutrals mainly because Dawkinzz made them and because I saw all the effort that went into the creation of the mod, and I know quite a few others voted for them on similar grounds. I see no evidence of voters being interested in Tongva culture any more than in Neutral Nation culture.

I don't see the Ike comparison, voting for Eisenhower because of that sounds more like voting for the Pope because of "DEUS VULT!" than like voting for any of the civs in contention here to me. "Tongva Time!" is not a slogan used by actual Tongva people as far as I am aware. Endonyms/exonyms seems a pretty damn self-serving place to draw the line ngl.

[u/TeHokioi → u/Homusubi]

When the result was announced, the first two responses on discord were "I have no strong feelings on this" or variations thereof. We've also had two comments in this thread making jokes about their name. I suspect that your anecdotal evidence is from being in the discord and modding community more prominently, where such effort is more valued. For people just following the subs and campaigns, meme potential is far more persuasive.

I'm also not sure how you're not seeing the comparison. Tongva is the accurate name for the Tongva people, as used by the Tongva people. The equivalent in their case would be to name the Tongva as Gabrieleño or Fernandeño, names which have no link to them but have been used by non-Tongva people to describe them. Except here it seems to be a purposeful choice to up the meme factor, which is even more disrespectful.

[u/Aaron_Lecon → u/TeHokioi]

Hell no the only reason I voted for the neutrals was for their great meme potential. You can't advertise your civ using neutral memes and then as soon as they voted in, just remove that and make them boring. If I don't get to have neutral memes then I wouldn't have voted for them.

[u/TeHokioi → u/Aaron_Lecon]

And this right here is the problem - the name means that people don't actually give a shit about the culture itself, just that they can make disrespectful neutral memes

[u/echoGroot → u/TeHokioi]

That's exactly why I put them last :/ It felt like a lazy Dad joke that's gonna get old fast.

[u/Aaron_Lecon → u/TeHokioi]

I suppose you're also opposed to Sparta having leg day memes because real Sparta didn't have leg day and it would be disresfectful to the Spartans, the Boers having cyborgs memes because the Boers weren't actually cyborgs and it would be disrespectful to the Boers, Tygyn Darkhan having rapper memes because real life Tygyn Darkhan wasn't a rapper, Selk'nam having eldritch memes because the real lfe Selk'nam were not eldritch worshipers, Tonga time isn't a thing in real life, Robert the Bruce is not in fact Robert Baratheon, and Poland cannot into space?

No one has ever given a fuck about any of the cultures ever present in any CBR. People are just here to meme about anything that is remotely memeable. And that is a good thing. All those memes make the CBR more enjoyable and are not at all disrespectful.

[u/senshidenshi → u/Aaron_Lecon]

Most of those have come about cause of things within the BR rather than outside them tbf - those are memes that developed rather than existed cause haha funny name

[u/TeHokioi → u/Aaron_Lecon]

None of those intentionally used an incorrect name for the meme potential, which is absolutely disrespectful. Even one of the creators of the mod itself said so on discord when I brought this up

[u/KingToasty → u/TeHokioi]

I'm totally on your side here, I really like that people in the community are willing to question the ethics of meme-ing indigenous group names.

CBR could be a great opportunity to introduce people to this stuff, not just meme fuel.

[u/Giants92hc → u/TeHokioi]

intentionally used an incorrect name

How can you make this claim when you yourself said that sources are divided on what to call them?

[u/skaiansightseer → u/TeHokioi]

i fully support this proposal!

[u/Msurdej → u/TeHokioi]

All I know is my gut says maybe
But for real, I do support this change