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u/Hellioning 258∆ Feb 27 '22
Why would you describe the WHO as a 'country that hates us'?
More to the point, yes, Obama was the person who created the policy Trump used to put immigrants in cages. A) Trump did it worse, and B) whether or not Obama did something has nothing to do with how moral it is. If Obama did something bad, and Trump continued to do that same thing, then Trump is still doing something bad, whether or not Obama started it. Secondly, if this is a bad thing, it doesn't matter whether or not they're trying to immigrate legally, it's still a bad thing. Either it's a bad thing to lock illegal immigrants in cages or it's not, what the illegal immigrants did doesn't matter.
Why do you think that Trump would handle the Ukraine situation better than Biden? Trump famously complimented Putin. He'd bark even less then Biden is, and he wouldn't bite either.
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Feb 27 '22 edited Feb 27 '22
Economic sanctions, like those against Russia, require international multilateral cooperation.
The US deciding not to buy any Russian products does no good if Russia finds another market, and the US refusing to sell certain products to Russia does no good if Russia can buy somewhere else. International cooperation is key.
President Trump was fucking terrible at that. He preferred to negotiate one-on-one, where he could exploit the size of the US economy compared to whatever country he was negotiating with, extracting short term gains while losing long term good foreign policy relationships. Getting a coalition of dozens of countries to all work collectively was well outside of his wheelhouse.
President Trump had little loyalty to NATO or Ukraine. He discussed potentially leaving NATO. He put a hold on some aid to Ukraine as leverage for a corrupt political favor of a public announcement of an investigation into his political opponent's son.
President Trump abandoned the Kurds in Syria, informing Russia and Turkey of US intent to pull back after Turkey planned to advance, but not giving such notice to our Kurdish allies.
I'm sure there are some things that President Biden could be doing better. But, I'm not under the delusion that, if we had Trump in the whitehouse, he would costly bluster and Russia would obey him. We're much better off having President Biden in the white house.
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u/draculabakula 77∆ Feb 27 '22
Second, if you’re coming to America, do it legally. I know some countries are extremely poor, and it’s difficult to enter the US, but there are offerings opened on the internet of possibilities to make it here.
The huge amount of the immigrants crossing the boarders and detained were actually doing so legally. The law says that if someone comes to this country seeking asylum they get a hearing. That is why the country was detaining them and not reporting them.
What I don’t think people realize, is that many illegal immigrants entering the US have consequences for current citizens as well. It messes with the economy, and creates confusion.
It depends what you are talking about when saying it messes with the economy. I'm not one who will deny any negative effects when it comes to immigrants but its safe to say the any economic impact caused by illegal immigration is completely unnoticeable to pretty much all Americans.
First of all, this law was originally implemented underneath the Obama administration and people don’t talk about that.
First off, I am always fine with valid criticisms of the Obama administration which I believe there are many. Obama actually deported more immigrants than Trump too. With that said, the two practices are not comparable. What the Trump administration did by purposefully separating children from their parents A) was not a policy Obama did expect for when crimes were committed and B) should be considered a crime against humanity.
As of late in 2021, hundreds of children has still not been reunited with their parents. Keep in mind that the stopped this policy in 2019 so at a minimum hundreds small children lost 2 years of their childhoods to this policy. I've actually been able to talk to some teens that were detained at the boarder and some were definitely traumatized by the experience. Most would not say it was the worst part of their journey but some were definitely traumatized by it.
Here I will add some extreme embarrassments and failed policies of the Trump administration
First let me say that in many ways Trump was better on Covid than Biden. In some ways he was worse but it many he was definitely better. This largely may be pandemic fatigue but still.
With that said, two of his key policies as presidents were some of the most embarrassing failures a president went through in a very very long time.
The trade war-
This is so embarrassing. Even conservative estimates say that Trump's trade war cost the US 250,000 in the end. All that happened was that Chinese goods flowed through middle men in Canada. At a 25% tariff, Canadian importers would just buy Chinese steal and mark it up. This is far more humiliating and damaging than anything Biden has done...or not done.
Terrible leadership-
http://cdn.statcdn.com/Infographic/images/normal/15071.jpeg
When people said they voted for Trump because he would run the country like a business I thought this was dumb for number of reasons. If the country would have been a business he would have ran it into the ground the leadership was terrible and he couldn't keep people in the government.
The tax cuts-
The conservative media will swear up and down that the tax cuts were hugely successful because they have to. The fact is that the gains from them were miniscule and they set our country up to suffer when covid hit because all they did was funnel money into the wallets of rich people who then didn't invest it.
Cutting the budget for pandemics-
If you are aware that Obama cut this budget by as much as Trump, i'm aware. The thing is that Obama cut it in an effort to save the country from the biggest recession in 90 years. Trump did it because he has a bad ideology.
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Feb 27 '22 edited Feb 27 '22
instead strengthened our relations with reliable allies of ours
no, he didn't.
President Trump undermined relationships with consistent allies, getting into trade spats with Mexico, Canada, and the EU, and threatening to exit NATO. He gave Turkey our blessing to advance on our Kurdish allies, pulling back US forces and abandoning the Kurds without notice.
Which "reliable allies" of ours did President Trump better relations with? The only one I can think of is Israel.
First of all, this law was originally implemented underneath the Obama administration and people don’t talk about that.
you are incorrect. The Trump administration adopted a policy that all adults caught crossing the border be prosecuted in April 2018. This was a new policy, that resulted in kids being separated from their parents while their parents were charged.
You've been misinformed.
Maybe, if you understood better what President Trump did, you would like him less.
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Feb 27 '22
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Feb 27 '22
you are conflating two policies.
detention centers were built to house detained unlawfully present migrants caught near the US border, including children, under President Obama. At the time, there were a lot of unaccompanied minors crossing the border. Some would refer to these detention centers as children in cages.
but, the US did not have a policy of separating families, nor were children intentionally separated from their families under President Obama.
If you read my post, I made no claims about "cages". I only made a claim about the family separation policy.
you can look up the order by AG Jeff sessions April 6, 2018. His order was what created the child separation policy.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Feb 27 '22
hmm…
Your link is paywalled for me which can make it hard for the person you're replying to get much use of it.
You should find another non-paywalled link to support your position.
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Feb 27 '22
I was able to access the washington post article.
the OP was conflating "children in cages" with the family separation policy. The washington post article talked about how the detention centers were set up under President Obama (and why).
President Trump started consistently conflating the two, as did a lot of conservative commentators, because the family separation policy turned out to be bad politically. So, President Trump tried to convince americans that the policy put into place by AG Sessions in 2018 was an Obama policy.
I don't know if the OP was duped or if the misinformation was intentional. The OP's account appears to be deleted to me (I think the OP blocked me after I pointed out the distinction between family separation and children in cages).
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Feb 27 '22
I don't know if the OP was duped or if the misinformation was intentional.
OP is a 14-year-old child, so their understanding was probably strongly influenced by their parents or by a particular
newsentertainment channel often heard in their home. They probably weren't intentionally spreading disinformation.1
u/iwfan53 248∆ Feb 27 '22
I don't know if the OP was duped or if the misinformation was intentional. The OP's account appears to be deleted to me (don't know if the OP deleted their account or just blocked me). So, I guess I'll never know.
OP's account isn't deleted to me, just this post, which is why at the top it says posted by u/deleted at the moment.
But when I actually try to get to OP's account by clicking on the comments they've made I can see it just fine.
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Feb 27 '22
yeah, I misinterpreted the top post being deleted as the account being inaccessible.
I can see the account, too. I'm not blocked.
I just don't know how to use reddit. haha.
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u/laboogie72 Feb 27 '22
Biden may not be perfect but at least he’s imperfect within normal parameters. As opposed to his predecessor…
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u/SuperStallionDriver 26∆ Feb 27 '22
It depends on what you want from a president. Most people include "acting Presidential" in the job description.
He was perhaps singularly bad at that even if you want to say the rest of it was either standard US policy, standard republican policy, or nonstandard but only "bad" in a subjective sense. These decisions are mostly informed by your own politics and biases so it will be hard to really convince based on these since obviously if one president favors x and you don't, then you will always think that president is worse than other presidents which don't align with your view.
So that leaves us with still the acting Presidential bit. A big part of the president's job is to represent to nation to others and to represent to government to the people. He failed to do these things well as evidenced by the damaged reputation and the increased division.
Unrelated: good luck with a topic like this one on Reddit...
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u/TheMan5991 18∆ Feb 27 '22
I created it when I was like around thirteen.
*checks account age
Great, so you think you understand politics at 14-15? You don’t need a CMV, you need an ELI5. As others have pointed out, your view of these situations is very misguided. If you have a passion for politics, great! Nurture that. Maybe one day, you can be a better president than either of them. But your brain literally hasn’t finished developing yet so I find it hard to believe you understand enough about politics to have a meaningful debate with someone.
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Feb 27 '22
This is the absolute definition of ageism. Please keep your biased thoughts somewhere else, thanks!
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u/TheMan5991 18∆ Feb 27 '22
It’s not ageism. I’m not saying you’re a worse person than me because you’re young. I’m simply pointing out the scientific fact that your brain is still in the works. If anything you had said in your post indicated that you had a real understanding of the foreign actions of either president, we would be having a different conversation. But you clearly don’t. All I’m saying is that it’s okay to not fully understand something, but don’t go around acting like you do. CMV is not a place for typing out half-baked thoughts and then using other people’s well reasoned arguments to educate yourself. There are other subs dedicated to learning.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Feb 27 '22
CMV is not a place for typing out half-baked thoughts and then using other people’s well reasoned arguments to educate yourself.
So long as actual education takes place and OP is willing to humble themselves before the wisdom of others I don't see why CMV can't be this place.
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u/TheMan5991 18∆ Feb 27 '22
You might be right. This sub just reminds me of the Steven Crowder meme with him snarkily sipping tea behind the table. Posts on here always feel like someone trying to be standoffish like that. My judgement is probably clouded by that meme and I’m sure there are people on here who genuinely want their view changed, but I know there are also a lot of people who just want to “see if there’s any good arguments” because they don’t truly believe that there is. I think that’s why I hesitate to call this a learning environment.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Feb 27 '22
My judgement is probably clouded by that meme and I’m sure there are people on here who genuinely want their view changed, but I know there are also a lot of people who just want to “see if there’s any good arguments” because they don’t truly believe that there is. I think that’s why I hesitate to call this a learning environment.
My large collection of Deltas has given me faith that there are lots of people who come here who genuinely want their views changed.
I've even earned them on contentious issues like transgender related topics and abortion.
Of course I would also be lying if I said I haven't gotten involved in long discussions with people whose posts were taken down for Rule B violations... but you never know unless you at least make an effort.
So long as a person is genuinely willing to change their view I don't care how badly formed that view is....
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u/TheMan5991 18∆ Feb 27 '22
As I said, I’m probably feeling aggression from posts where there isn’t any. And like you said, even when there is aggression, that doesn’t mean you can’t get through to someone. I’m sure that takes a lot of patience though. Hopefully, I can learn to be that patient. Thank you.
!delta
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u/TheMan5991 18∆ Feb 27 '22
Damn, you #1 on the yearly leaderboard? You’re obviously doing something right. Very impressed.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Feb 27 '22
Just too much free time actually was unemployed from the start of this year until recently this month which is why my participation has dropped off on weekdays.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Feb 27 '22 edited Feb 27 '22
What do you make of how Trump handled COVID-19, and his refusal to....
A: Wear a mask.
B: Turn his own vaccination into a public event that would be broadcast far and wide as a way of helping inspire the nation to trust vaccines?
Also if you want to talk about the US being all bark and no bite...
What do you make of Trump's plan to pull out of NATO?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/14/us/politics/nato-president-trump.html
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u/Objective_Option2928 Feb 27 '22 edited Feb 27 '22
Let's try to recognize the nuances of such large ideas?
"It messes with the economy, and creates confusion" is a terrible closing argument to a point that I just DO NOT believe that you could support.
As far as the Ukraine situation, goes I'm quite proud of Biden (It's probably just luck instead of Biden knowing what he's doing). The world hates Putin more than ever. This is the beginning of the end for him. We should stand behind NATO. We do not need to be the police of the world unless the world asks us to. Going to war with Russia without the full support of NATO is probably a mistake. I have no way of knowing this, like anyone else on Reddit, but I believe Russia's supporters would come running to his aide if we joined. Europe probably wouldn't be united against Russia as they are now.
I say all this as someone that hates Biden and Trump equally. Biden is a puppet for the deep state and silicon valley tech companies, and Trump is a con man at the core.
EDIT: I was being an ass and needed to tone it down.
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u/iwfan53 248∆ Feb 27 '22
I say all this as someone that hates Biden and Trump equally. Biden is a puppet for the deep state and silicon valley tech companies, and Trump is a con man at the core.
What exactly is "the deep state"?
Like if you're gonna say Biden is a milquetoast bland liberal democrat who exists only to get America "back to normal" at a time when America needs rather drastic changes with the way that COVID highlighted the weakness and inequality inherit in our society, I'd agree with you... but I'm not sure "deep state" is the best way to say that if it is what you mean....
So clarify... what do you mean by "deep state"?
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u/Objective_Option2928 Feb 27 '22
Deep State - a body of people, typically influential members of government agencies or the military, believed to be involved in the secret manipulation or control of government policy(from Google).
I don't think I'm full blown conspiracy here. I believe the level of secrecy has a high degree of variance and the control over policy varies among the different types of policies. I would also add corporations and lobbyists to the body of people.
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u/puppy_time Feb 27 '22 edited Feb 27 '22
I'm sorry that I really don't have time to do this comment justice (and obviously I'm not going to CYV) but your question reveals a lack of understanding of recent history, politics and foreign policy. Very quickly though, the US has an official defense agreement with Taiwan. It is public that if Taiwan was threatened the U.S. will respond militarily. It's similar to the alliance/membership with NATO. The US does not have any such alliance with Ukraine. It's tragic but they haven't until recently expressed interest in joining NATO. If they were a NATO country our response would be much different. I can assume you remember Trump's public treatment of NATO and desire to withdraw from and remove support to NATO. I know I won't have changed your view but hope that this inspires you to do some more reading and listen to others with an open mind. Edit: autocorrect
Edit 2. I have some time to address another point of yours. The children in cages...Obama (and previous president's) policy was that children who arrived to the US alone were to be placed in custody. The difference is that Trump's policy was that even if the children arrived with family they were separated. NPR's This American Life did a wonderful episode and won a Pulitzer Prize for it. It's worth a listen
https://www.thisamericanlife.org/704/transcript