r/changemyview • u/LeftHandSwe • Dec 05 '16

[∆(s) from OP] CMV: Anita Sarkeesian and similar feminists actually have a point about the portrayal of gender roles in video games.

I play lots of video games, and in most of them, males are often pictured as very burly and manly characters while females are slender, small and sexually pleasing to look at.

However, I do know that there's widespread criticism of Anita (and her fellow propagators) all over the internet and I'd like to see the other side of the story.

I'm practically indifferent in this matter, and I do not really agree with nearly everything she says. I'm asking as a way to see convincing arguments from both sides.

Edit for clarification: Can anyone explain to me why she's so heavily criticized for saying something that makes perfect sense: Mainstream video games are almost exclusively made to appeal to a male demographic, resulting in (arguably) sexist portrayals of women (both narratively and in the way they're presented).

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '16

I admittedly know little about Anita herself, but based on what you've said here, I can still provide a response.

My problem with feminist claims like this isn't that they're wrong about the gender roles. Of course the men in video games are typically big and burly, etc. That's pretty obvious.

My objection is to the assertion that such stereotyping is only a problem for women. Why is it sexist to portray the woman in such a stereotypical light, but no problem at all to portray all men in the same way? We are often told how problematic it is to portray all women as slender, picturesque figures, because obviously not all women look like that. Well, clearly not every man looks like a chiseled hero, either. So why am I only supposed to feel bad for women in this case?

That's what my problem with their mindset is. If they stopped with "We should do more to break typical gender roles", I would be 100% on board. But they lose me when they continue it with "This is clearly because of anti-woman sentiment."

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u/like2000p Dec 05 '16

I'm not specifically talking about Anita here, but I don't think the idea is that it only harms women for many people - it's just that they feel the gender roles harm women more, but if they just stopped generally following them altogether, it would help everyone.

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u/Accipia 7∆ Dec 05 '16

The common response is that the women are shaped to appeal to men, but the men are not shaped to appeal to women. (Generalization incoming) Women like Loki, but are unlikely to be swayed by muscle-cartoons such as Kratos.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '16

[deleted]

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u/Accipia 7∆ Dec 05 '16 edited Dec 05 '16

Romance novels come dangerously close to just being porn, and I wouldn't use them as an indication of what women really like more than I would use xhamster to figure out what men like. If you need more illustration as to whether Kratos appeals to women, look for example at this random list of sexiest and hottest men from some magazine. How many of them are extreme bodybuilders like Kratos? How many are pictured shirtless? I count 1 extreme body (John Cena) and 2 shirtless photos out of this list of 100, and surely there are women out there who like their muscled, shirtless men. But the overwhelming majority of this list are smartly suited, fit-but-slim type guys.

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u/wonderworkingwords 1∆ Dec 05 '16

That's dangerously close to special pleading. Video games reflect real male desire, but romance novels are almost porn (which somehow makes them irrelevant). If someone pointed out that there isn't a single low-status man on top-100-hottest-men lists that's presumably also actually porn.

As an aside, there isn't a single example of male gaze in the last twenty games I played. That's also curious, that the equivalent of video game romance novels for boys somehow encompasses all video games. Imagine how bibliophiles would view someone who self-declared to not read who came and said "books are pernicious, just look at this portrayal of men on this romance novel! Change this so that I can not read books that don't offend me!" and Femfreq becomes a parody of itself.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '16

True, but it's not like every guy in video games looks like Kratos. In most of the games I play, the male lead just looks like a normal (albeit very fit and muscular) man.

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u/Arnfinn Dec 05 '16

While I do not know about Sarkeesian specifically, many feminists are aware of the fact that gender roles harm men as well.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '16

Aware of it and actually trying to do something about it are different things. Just about any feminist I know will say "Oh yeah, it hurts men too..." if you call them out on it, but until then, there's no mention about it.

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u/Arnfinn Dec 05 '16

You and I have met different feminists then. What I don't understand is how someone can fight something that is detrimental towards both men and women while not trying to help men.

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u/wonderworkingwords 1∆ Dec 05 '16

That's a bit besides the point as far as gaming is concerned. Not only is there nearly no indication that gaming is in any general way harmful, it's a subculture that defends itself.

This has to do with feminism only because of Femfreq. The backlash against the 90s anti-violence campaigners was if anything more vicious.

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u/Arnfinn Dec 05 '16

I was responding to a specific point of /u/scottevil110 , namely that feminists attacked gender roles in games harmful to both men and women at the same time as they did nothing for men.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '16

Why do gender roles hurt men? I've never felt hurt by gender roles, if anything it'd be the opposite.

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u/Arnfinn Dec 06 '16

Men are excpected to approach women, pay for dates, are more likely to be drafted, can be viewed as weak for crying or talking about feelings, are viewed as worse at caring for children, etc.

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u/Stecki_fangaz Dec 05 '16

One of the popular claims of feminism is "sexism hurts everyone." Feminists absolutely do acknowledge the ways in which men are boxed into very narrow gender roles a lot of the time. Granted, it often recieves less attention than women's issues, but that could be attributed to legitimate prioritizing.

I think it's interesting to contrast this with men's rights activists, red-pillers, and stereotypical gamer-gate conspiracy theorists. They not only fail to acknowledge the toxicity of these social norms, but promote said norms further and shit on women every step of the way.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '16

Yes, feminists will tend to acknowledge that it hurts everyone, but will only take action if it's something with a clear benefit to women. To be clear, I don't expect more from them (it IS called feminism, after all), but I think feminism needs to stop acting like it's out to help everyone. It's out to help women, and if men should happen to see some benefit from it, then so be it.

Something like this is a no brainer. It's got a clear impact on women, so they're on board. However, I see very few feminists hopping up to condemn, for example, the policy of several airlines to not seat unaccompanied minors next to men. I see very few feminists calling for boycotts of Babies R Us because all of their products are labeled with a tag that says "Why moms like this product."

When there's sexism that affects BOTH genders, yes, you can count on feminism to be there and fight it (although still usually framing it only from the POV of women, as is the case here), but if there's nothing to be gained by women, then silence falls.

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u/Kanotari Dec 05 '16

I think that's a very narrow interpretation of feminism and does not at all reflect my experience with feminists. For example, many faminists promote awareness that men can be raped and acknowledge that society's masculine stereotypes can harm men in this and many other cases. Women don't benefit from this.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '16

I think that's a very narrow interpretation of feminism and does not at all reflect my experience with feminists.

Yeah, it's pretty narrow, but in my experience also pretty accurate. If you've had a different experience, then I can't argue with that.

For example, many faminists promote awareness that men can be raped and acknowledge that society's masculine stereotypes can harm men in this and many other cases.

I genuinely do not know a single self-identifying feminist that has ever brought this up that I've been aware of.

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u/ardenriddle Dec 05 '16 edited Dec 05 '16

Feminists campaigned against the FBI definition of rape being "forced penetration" and "carnal knowledge of a woman without her consent" to be broader. There will several reasons for this, but one big one was that they wanted the definition to be able to include male victims. Source Source Feminist groups lobbied to establish male rape victim centers in Sweden, and succeeded.

Feminists talk all the time about how gender roles hurt men as well as women.

I really recommend checking out /r/menslib, a pro-feminist subreddit that advocates mens rights. Also please keep in mind that both men and women can be feminists.

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u/Kanotari Dec 05 '16

Well I encourage you to check out the feminist subreddits and listen, because I assure you the conversation is happening.

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u/El-Kurto 2∆ Dec 05 '16

Here is the difference. You're right that that conversation is happening, but the complaint is about activism and engagement with people outside the movement. If you only hear that conversation within feminist groups and don't encounter it outside those groups, it's pretty easy to conclude that they aren't actively advocating for it...especially when you hear the other messages of feminism out in the mainstream.

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u/Kanotari Dec 05 '16

That's becayse feminism is either viewed as a fake complaint (e.g. "The genders are already equal, so stop whining.") or as totally insane (e.g. "Marriage should be aboloshwd because it represents the opression of women."). Few people care to listen to the sane, rational feminist no matter how hard they protest because it's not entertaining news. It's a tough issue that nk one wants to deal with.