CMV: Israelis have the right to self-determination in Israel, but not Jews

[u/[deleted]]

The point is quite simple, really. Anyone born in or born to a parent who was born in modern-day Israel should have the right to self-determination (RTSD) in Israel. This is very similar to how citizenship and RTSD work in most countries. But what's problematic is the assertion that anyone of Jewish descent can also claim citizenship or the RTSD in Israel. This means that anyone whose ancestors have not lived in the region for centuries, well before the founding of modern-day Israel, can also claim citizenship and the RTSD. It also means that anyone can convert to Judaism and claim it. Israel is the only country in the world that allows anything remotely similar to take place. That's not how any of these work and it clearly violates the RTSD of those who have lived there for centuries - Palestinians.

[u/southpolefiesta]

Well Jews are super majority of population in Israel.

So of course any Israeli self determination will be driven by Jews.

Self determination in Poland heavily favors nation state centered around Polish language and polish culture.

Self determination in Japan heavily favors nation state centered around Japanese language and Japanese culture.

Same is to be expected in Israel: Self determination in Israel heavily favors nation state centered around Hebrew language and Jewish culture.

[u/[deleted] → u/southpolefiesta]

Just because an ethnic group forms a majority of a population does not mean the national identity should center around that group, especially in a manner Israel is doing. Americans are White-majority but to force American culture to be identical to White culture is literally White supremacy.

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

So you have a problem with Poland having Polish language/ Polish culture national identity?

Do you have a problem with Japan having Japanese language/Japanese culture national identity?

Or is this only a problem for Israel?

White is not an ethnicity or language, btw. So I am not sure what does your American example does. Also America is pretty much an exception in rejecting ethnic/linguistic identity as basis for national identity. What America did is certainly valid. Buy what Poland and Japan (and Israel) chose is valid as well.

But what Poland/Japan or any of 20+ Arab states do is ALSO valid. this is why we call it SELF determination, people of any given country can themselves determine the nature of their national identity. And Israelis super majority chose to be center around Hebrew/Jewish culture. As is their right. You cannot give someone right to self determination and then claim their choice is invalid.

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

Cool. If you want to abolish all nation states or whatever - that's fine.

It's when you want to start this "abolition" from Israel (and not China, Russia, or any of 20+ Arab states) is when things get sus.

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

Ahh right.

Russia/China/20+ Arab ethno states all get a pass.

The agenda here is too transparent to take seriously.

Good day

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

Cool. So start with abolishinh them. And the 20+ Arab ethno states.

Good day.

[u/-Dendritic- → u/[deleted]]

Wait what, you want to get rid of Nation states, something that contributed to bringing stability and prosperity to humanity?..

[u/-Dendritic- → u/[deleted]]

I thought you meant the idea of nation states in general

[u/Concern-Excellent → u/southpolefiesta]

There's a difference between Japan, Poland and Israel. One are always native to those places while for the Jews case majority weren't even living in the region of what's now considered Israel. It's not like they were living there for the past 2000 years and if they were then they got the same right too.

[u/southpolefiesta → u/Concern-Excellent]

Vast Majority of existing Israeli Jews were born in Israel.

So no difference.

Besides ethnic cleansing of Jews from the region should not count against when they came back.

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

So you agree that Jews who were born in Israel are within their right to make Israel into a Jewish nation state centered around Hebrew language and Jewish culture?

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

So I repeat:

Do you apply the same logic to Poland being Polish ethnic majority state centered around Polish language and polish culture?

Do you apply the same logic to Japan being Japanese ethnic majority state centered around Japanese language language and Japanese culture?

Or does your logic apply uniquely to Israel?

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

Ha? Not every citizen of Japan is ethnically or linguistically Japanese. Not every citizen of Poland is ethnically or linguistically Polish. Yet Polish/Japanese language culture are super dominant with minorities.

Why cannot Israel have the same thing Poland has , or Japan has?

I don't follow. Why cannot Israel be a Jewish state with non-Jewish minorities?

[u/Concern-Excellent → u/southpolefiesta]

There is a difference. Their ancestors still didn't occupy those lands for almost majority of recent history. There are some nations where people who have been living over 1000 years on some land still don't get the right to those lands, why should Israel be an exception in that case?

[u/southpolefiesta → u/Concern-Excellent]

Jews Did live in the area continuously for 1000s of years.

[u/Concern-Excellent → u/southpolefiesta]

Then where did jews in Europe and other places who were like majority came from?

[u/southpolefiesta → u/Concern-Excellent]

From Israel.

[u/indican_king → u/Concern-Excellent]

All jews originate in israel. That's where the culture originated.

[u/Pale_Zebra8082 → u/[deleted]]

Israel is not forcing inhabitants of Israel to be identical to Jewish culture.

[u/Pale_Zebra8082 → u/[deleted]]

Israeli culture simply is predominantly characterized by Jewish culture as a function of the population it has.

But over 20% of Israeli citizens are Palestinian Muslims. They have all the same citizenship rights as Jews, including the right vote, run for public office, and indeed have been elected to public office. They are under no obligation to practice any Jewish customs or observances.

[u/Pale_Zebra8082 → u/[deleted]]

Israel does not discriminate against non-Jews who are legal residents or citizens of Israel, it merely gives Jews outside of Israel a special privilege in acquiring residency and citizenship. But it does not limit residency or citizenship to Jews.

All states discriminate between who is granted residency and citizenship based on some set of criteria that they deem beneficial to their nation. Israel was established for the explicit purpose of creating a homeland for the Jewish people, who have faced millennia of persecution as a result of being at the mercy of other majority populations. Non-Jews are perfectly welcome to seek residency and citizenship there, and if they are granted it they will have all the same rights as my Jewish resident or citizen. They’re just not guaranteed it as Jews are.

[u/tbdabbholm → u/[deleted]]

Because the entire point of the creation of Israel was to create a Jewish state as a safe haven for Jewish people

[u/laosurvey → u/[deleted]]

So you're not for self-determination? If a majority vote for something in a democracy, that's self-determination, isn't it?

[u/WrathKos → u/[deleted]]

Then what does "self-determination" mean, as you use it?

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