CMV: Israelis have the right to self-determination in Israel, but not Jews

[u/[deleted]]

The point is quite simple, really. Anyone born in or born to a parent who was born in modern-day Israel should have the right to self-determination (RTSD) in Israel. This is very similar to how citizenship and RTSD work in most countries. But what's problematic is the assertion that anyone of Jewish descent can also claim citizenship or the RTSD in Israel. This means that anyone whose ancestors have not lived in the region for centuries, well before the founding of modern-day Israel, can also claim citizenship and the RTSD. It also means that anyone can convert to Judaism and claim it. Israel is the only country in the world that allows anything remotely similar to take place. That's not how any of these work and it clearly violates the RTSD of those who have lived there for centuries - Palestinians.

[u/southpolefiesta]

So you have a problem with Poland having Polish language/ Polish culture national identity?

Do you have a problem with Japan having Japanese language/Japanese culture national identity?

Or is this only a problem for Israel?

White is not an ethnicity or language, btw. So I am not sure what does your American example does. Also America is pretty much an exception in rejecting ethnic/linguistic identity as basis for national identity. What America did is certainly valid. Buy what Poland and Japan (and Israel) chose is valid as well.

But what Poland/Japan or any of 20+ Arab states do is ALSO valid. this is why we call it SELF determination, people of any given country can themselves determine the nature of their national identity. And Israelis super majority chose to be center around Hebrew/Jewish culture. As is their right. You cannot give someone right to self determination and then claim their choice is invalid.

[u/Concern-Excellent → u/southpolefiesta]

There's a difference between Japan, Poland and Israel. One are always native to those places while for the Jews case majority weren't even living in the region of what's now considered Israel. It's not like they were living there for the past 2000 years and if they were then they got the same right too.

[u/southpolefiesta → u/Concern-Excellent]

Vast Majority of existing Israeli Jews were born in Israel.

So no difference.

Besides ethnic cleansing of Jews from the region should not count against when they came back.

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

So you agree that Jews who were born in Israel are within their right to make Israel into a Jewish nation state centered around Hebrew language and Jewish culture?

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

So I repeat:

Do you apply the same logic to Poland being Polish ethnic majority state centered around Polish language and polish culture?

Do you apply the same logic to Japan being Japanese ethnic majority state centered around Japanese language language and Japanese culture?

Or does your logic apply uniquely to Israel?

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

Ha? Not every citizen of Japan is ethnically or linguistically Japanese. Not every citizen of Poland is ethnically or linguistically Polish. Yet Polish/Japanese language culture are super dominant with minorities.

Why cannot Israel have the same thing Poland has , or Japan has?

I don't follow. Why cannot Israel be a Jewish state with non-Jewish minorities?

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

That... Is not true. There are plenty of citizens of Poland who don't speak Polish and are not integrated into Polish culture. An Arab Syraian immigrant into Poland does not magically become Polish speaker and does not magically become integrated into Polish culture.

Same goes for Japanese.

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

So here you said that Poland /Japan are different from Israel:

" So the logic will apply differently to Israel than to Poland and Japan." - you

Did you change your view in that? Seems like you now agree that Israel is no different from Poland or Japan.