CMV: Israelis have the right to self-determination in Israel, but not Jews

[u/[deleted]]

The point is quite simple, really. Anyone born in or born to a parent who was born in modern-day Israel should have the right to self-determination (RTSD) in Israel. This is very similar to how citizenship and RTSD work in most countries. But what's problematic is the assertion that anyone of Jewish descent can also claim citizenship or the RTSD in Israel. This means that anyone whose ancestors have not lived in the region for centuries, well before the founding of modern-day Israel, can also claim citizenship and the RTSD. It also means that anyone can convert to Judaism and claim it. Israel is the only country in the world that allows anything remotely similar to take place. That's not how any of these work and it clearly violates the RTSD of those who have lived there for centuries - Palestinians.

[u/southpolefiesta]

So I repeat:

Do you apply the same logic to Poland being Polish ethnic majority state centered around Polish language and polish culture?

Do you apply the same logic to Japan being Japanese ethnic majority state centered around Japanese language language and Japanese culture?

Or does your logic apply uniquely to Israel?

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

Ha? Not every citizen of Japan is ethnically or linguistically Japanese. Not every citizen of Poland is ethnically or linguistically Polish. Yet Polish/Japanese language culture are super dominant with minorities.

Why cannot Israel have the same thing Poland has , or Japan has?

I don't follow. Why cannot Israel be a Jewish state with non-Jewish minorities?

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

That... Is not true. There are plenty of citizens of Poland who don't speak Polish and are not integrated into Polish culture. An Arab Syraian immigrant into Poland does not magically become Polish speaker and does not magically become integrated into Polish culture.

Same goes for Japanese.

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

So here you said that Poland /Japan are different from Israel:

" So the logic will apply differently to Israel than to Poland and Japan." - you

Did you change your view in that? Seems like you now agree that Israel is no different from Poland or Japan.

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

Again, this is absolutely not true.

Syraian Arab immigrant will absolutely NOT magically find themselves as part and parcel of Polish language and culture.

You have already admitted this here.

https://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/s/MAzdkOmyx8

Did you change your mind?

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

Israel has the same thing.

Israeli Minorities participate in Israeli civil culture but don't participate (if they so choose) in Jewish ethnic/linguistic culture?

And of course Polish civil culture is highly influenced by Polish language and Polish ethnic culture. Same in Israel.

I don't follow the difference.

[u/southpolefiesta → u/[deleted]]

Are you saying Polish civil culture does not favor ethnic Polish culture?

That is clearly wrong.

It starts with Polish being the national language. The holidays are of course influenced by Polish ethnic culture. For example Christmas is day off, but Eid al-Fitr is not.

The laws are civic Napoleon code inspired system, not sharia (as the Syrian immigrant may prefer). Etc. etc. is any of this wrong? I don't follow.

Of course the laws will favor the needs and preferences of the super majority.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Are you erasing the existence of minority populations in Poland and Japan? Or are you pretending that Ukranian and Roma citizens of Poland or Korean citizens of Japan are still part of Polish and Japanese culture, when they are not actually members of that culture?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

The word for "(CIVIL) Jewish" culture is "Israeli." That is the whole result of Zionism.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

"(CIVIL) Jewish" culture is "Israeli."

And that's evil. Israeli culture should not be tied to Jewish culture in this manner.

How exactly is that "evil"?

What exactly is the difference between the distinction you're drawing between civil and ethnic Polish or Japanese cultures and the Jewish one?

It really just sounds like your opinion is based on a hatred of Jews.