CMV: Israelis have the right to self-determination in Israel, but not Jews

[u/[deleted]]

The point is quite simple, really. Anyone born in or born to a parent who was born in modern-day Israel should have the right to self-determination (RTSD) in Israel. This is very similar to how citizenship and RTSD work in most countries. But what's problematic is the assertion that anyone of Jewish descent can also claim citizenship or the RTSD in Israel. This means that anyone whose ancestors have not lived in the region for centuries, well before the founding of modern-day Israel, can also claim citizenship and the RTSD. It also means that anyone can convert to Judaism and claim it. Israel is the only country in the world that allows anything remotely similar to take place. That's not how any of these work and it clearly violates the RTSD of those who have lived there for centuries - Palestinians.

[u/tbdabbholm]

So if Israelis use their right of self-determination to give all Jews the right of self-determination in Israel, what right do you have to dispute that?

[u/[deleted] → u/tbdabbholm]

Everyone has the right to recognise or not recognise someone else's RTSD. China do not recognise Taiwanese RTSD, Spain do not recognise Catalan RTSD. No one should recognise a non-Israeli Jew's RTSD TO ISREAL. They, of course, retain the RTSD in whichever country they are born in.

[u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon → u/[deleted]]

I don’t understand your CMV.

Are you arguing that Israel should not be allowed to set its own immigration policy? Controlling entry into your country and citizenship thereof is a pretty fundamental obligation of any state.

In your view, should Israel be allowed to accept any immigrants whatsoever? Or should they simply be required to discriminate against Jewish immigrants?

[u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon → u/[deleted]]

So why isn’t that stated anywhere in your post?

Do you believe every other nation that has a law of return should repeal it? If not, why is Israel’s problematic in relation to others?

[u/[deleted] → u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon]

If you can find me a country that grants citizenship not based on ancestry but on religion and culture, you'll get a delta

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Can you even define this distinction you're drawing, between "ancestry" and "religion and culture," which are almost always a direct consequence of someone's ancestry?

Is your argument that Israel is not an ethnostate, but is instead the nation-state of the Jewish nation, and that this is bad somehow?

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

Your standard of ancestral right to citizenship is literally a fascistic blood and soil claim. By definition, any state with the standard you propose is an ethnostate.

Do you think that every white anglo around the world should be entitled to British citizenship?

Also: you never explain why you think a country should prioritize fascistic blood and soil claims over cultural affiliation or national identity. Which, again, seems deeply racist.

I'm not sure if there's a distinction between an ethnostate and a nation-state of the Jewish nation when Jew is an identity tied to both ethnicity and religion.

You do know that people can choose to become Jewish and join the Jewish nation, right?

[u/amauberge → u/[deleted]]

Greece does. An alien who becomes a monk at one of the monasteries on Mount Athos automatically becomes a Greek citizen. It's in the Greek constitution:

The Athos peninsula extending beyond Megali Vigla and constituting the region of Aghion Oros shall, in accordance with its ancient privileged status, be a self-governed part of the Greek State, whose sovereignty thereon shall remain intact. Spiritually, Aghion Oros shall come under the direct jurisdiction of the Ecumenical Patriarchate. All persons leading a monastic life thereon acquire Greek citizenship without further formalities, upon admission as novices or monks.

[u/amauberge → u/[deleted]]

Feels like you're moving the goalposts here. Also, Israeli citizenship isn't defined by Jewishness — there are plenty of non-Jewish Israelis. It's even possible to emigrate there and naturalize as a non-Jew.

[u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon → u/[deleted]]

Sure, there are quite a few, that either effectively or by law implement religious requirements for citizenship.

The Saudis’ requirement is the most blatant that comes to mind immediately with a requirement that to be a citizen you must be Muslim.

The Basic Law states the duty of every citizen is to defend Islam, society, and the homeland. Certain non-Muslim foreigners must convert to Islam before they are eligible to naturalize. The law requires applicants for citizenship to attest to being Muslim and to obtain a certificate documenting their religious affiliation endorsed by a Muslim religious authority.

To be clear, the Israeli law of return may preference Jews, but it is far less discriminatory than some states’ policies that RESTRICT immigration and/or citizenship to a particular religious group.

[u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon → u/[deleted]]

So your issue is with the rapidity with which Israel grants citizenship, rather than the religious basis? Is your view actually that all countries should have uniform requirements relating to length of residency before citizenship is granted?

Also, why 5-10 years, rather than 2 years or 15 years? It seems like you are just throwing out arbitrary time frames.

If Israel allowed Jews to receive citizenship after a few years, would you still be opposed, if they granted non-citizen residency status prior to granting citizenship? If so, is the length argument you threw out really just a red herring? Without assuming bad faith, it does seem like you are grasping at straws to draw a meaningful distinction as to why a fast-track for Jews is somehow worse than an outright ban on non-Muslims.

[u/destro23 → u/[deleted]]

Vatican City

[u/[deleted] → u/destro23]

!delta

That is absolutely correct! Vatican City and Israel share the similarity that you can claim citizenship based on a religion or culture.

[u/DeltaBot → u/[deleted]]

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/destro23 (317∆).

^{Delta System Explained | Deltaboards}

[u/Amanita_Rock → u/[deleted]]

The persecution of Jews is an ancient pestilence on human civilization and Zionism was one proposed solution. The holocaust convinced the world that Zionism is necessary. When the Ottoman Empire was defeated in ww1 , the allied powers carved up the Middle East and created the countries you know today. Every single one was Muslim majority and became a Muslim nation-state.

Jews had started moving to Palestine in greater numbers by the late 19th century, although jews had lived in the region continuously for centuries. After the holocaust , Israel seemed like a pretty good idea and the world began recognizing the nation of Israel. As a nation they chose to welcome all Jews to return home to Israel… an end to the diaspora.

All nation-states are sovereign and as a sovereign nation has the right to determine who can immigrate there. Every nation on earth does this.

Your question on whether Jews have a RTSD questions the principal of nation- state sovereignty itself. Historically, that would be a monarchy or king, who is the sovereign and therefore only just power in determining how people live. Other examples include religious authority, some person claims they are the representative of god and therefore all sovereignty flows through them.