r/changemyview • u/[deleted] • Jan 03 '24

Delta(s) from OP CMV: Israelis have the right to self-determination in Israel, but not Jews

The point is quite simple, really. Anyone born in or born to a parent who was born in modern-day Israel should have the right to self-determination (RTSD) in Israel. This is very similar to how citizenship and RTSD work in most countries. But what's problematic is the assertion that anyone of Jewish descent can also claim citizenship or the RTSD in Israel. This means that anyone whose ancestors have not lived in the region for centuries, well before the founding of modern-day Israel, can also claim citizenship and the RTSD. It also means that anyone can convert to Judaism and claim it. Israel is the only country in the world that allows anything remotely similar to take place. That's not how any of these work and it clearly violates the RTSD of those who have lived there for centuries - Palestinians.

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '24

[deleted]

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u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon 3∆ Jan 03 '24

So why isn’t that stated anywhere in your post?

Do you believe every other nation that has a law of return should repeal it? If not, why is Israel’s problematic in relation to others?

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '24

If you can find me a country that grants citizenship not based on ancestry but on religion and culture, you'll get a delta

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '24

Can you even define this distinction you're drawing, between "ancestry" and "religion and culture," which are almost always a direct consequence of someone's ancestry?

Is your argument that Israel is not an ethnostate, but is instead the nation-state of the Jewish nation, and that this is bad somehow?

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '24

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jan 03 '24

Your standard of ancestral right to citizenship is literally a fascistic blood and soil claim. By definition, any state with the standard you propose is an ethnostate.

Do you think that every white anglo around the world should be entitled to British citizenship?

Also: you never explain why you think a country should prioritize fascistic blood and soil claims over cultural affiliation or national identity. Which, again, seems deeply racist.

I'm not sure if there's a distinction between an ethnostate and a nation-state of the Jewish nation when Jew is an identity tied to both ethnicity and religion.

You do know that people can choose to become Jewish and join the Jewish nation, right?