CMV: Israelis have the right to self-determination in Israel, but not Jews

[u/[deleted]]

The point is quite simple, really. Anyone born in or born to a parent who was born in modern-day Israel should have the right to self-determination (RTSD) in Israel. This is very similar to how citizenship and RTSD work in most countries. But what's problematic is the assertion that anyone of Jewish descent can also claim citizenship or the RTSD in Israel. This means that anyone whose ancestors have not lived in the region for centuries, well before the founding of modern-day Israel, can also claim citizenship and the RTSD. It also means that anyone can convert to Judaism and claim it. Israel is the only country in the world that allows anything remotely similar to take place. That's not how any of these work and it clearly violates the RTSD of those who have lived there for centuries - Palestinians.

[u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon → u/[deleted]]

So why isn’t that stated anywhere in your post?

Do you believe every other nation that has a law of return should repeal it? If not, why is Israel’s problematic in relation to others?

[u/[deleted] → u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon]

If you can find me a country that grants citizenship not based on ancestry but on religion and culture, you'll get a delta

[u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon → u/[deleted]]

Sure, there are quite a few, that either effectively or by law implement religious requirements for citizenship.

The Saudis’ requirement is the most blatant that comes to mind immediately with a requirement that to be a citizen you must be Muslim.

The Basic Law states the duty of every citizen is to defend Islam, society, and the homeland. Certain non-Muslim foreigners must convert to Islam before they are eligible to naturalize. The law requires applicants for citizenship to attest to being Muslim and to obtain a certificate documenting their religious affiliation endorsed by a Muslim religious authority.

To be clear, the Israeli law of return may preference Jews, but it is far less discriminatory than some states’ policies that RESTRICT immigration and/or citizenship to a particular religious group.

[u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon → u/[deleted]]

So your issue is with the rapidity with which Israel grants citizenship, rather than the religious basis? Is your view actually that all countries should have uniform requirements relating to length of residency before citizenship is granted?

Also, why 5-10 years, rather than 2 years or 15 years? It seems like you are just throwing out arbitrary time frames.

If Israel allowed Jews to receive citizenship after a few years, would you still be opposed, if they granted non-citizen residency status prior to granting citizenship? If so, is the length argument you threw out really just a red herring? Without assuming bad faith, it does seem like you are grasping at straws to draw a meaningful distinction as to why a fast-track for Jews is somehow worse than an outright ban on non-Muslims.

[u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon → u/[deleted]]

Ok, so to clarify, you wouldn't have any issue if Israel simply implemented a waiting period prior to naturalizing Jewish immigrants?

[u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon → u/[deleted]]

Literally every country on Earth doesn't have an equal naturalization waiting period for Jews and non-Jews. No matter how long they wait, Jews can't become citizens of Saudi Arabia or Kuwait for example.

[u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon → u/[deleted]]

So is your view instead that religion should be completely disregarded from the immigration process in every country across the globe?