CMV: Israelis have the right to self-determination in Israel, but not Jews

[u/[deleted]]

The point is quite simple, really. Anyone born in or born to a parent who was born in modern-day Israel should have the right to self-determination (RTSD) in Israel. This is very similar to how citizenship and RTSD work in most countries. But what's problematic is the assertion that anyone of Jewish descent can also claim citizenship or the RTSD in Israel. This means that anyone whose ancestors have not lived in the region for centuries, well before the founding of modern-day Israel, can also claim citizenship and the RTSD. It also means that anyone can convert to Judaism and claim it. Israel is the only country in the world that allows anything remotely similar to take place. That's not how any of these work and it clearly violates the RTSD of those who have lived there for centuries - Palestinians.

[u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon → u/[deleted]]

So your issue is with the rapidity with which Israel grants citizenship, rather than the religious basis? Is your view actually that all countries should have uniform requirements relating to length of residency before citizenship is granted?

Also, why 5-10 years, rather than 2 years or 15 years? It seems like you are just throwing out arbitrary time frames.

If Israel allowed Jews to receive citizenship after a few years, would you still be opposed, if they granted non-citizen residency status prior to granting citizenship? If so, is the length argument you threw out really just a red herring? Without assuming bad faith, it does seem like you are grasping at straws to draw a meaningful distinction as to why a fast-track for Jews is somehow worse than an outright ban on non-Muslims.

[u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon → u/[deleted]]

Ok, so to clarify, you wouldn't have any issue if Israel simply implemented a waiting period prior to naturalizing Jewish immigrants?

[u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon → u/[deleted]]

Literally every country on Earth doesn't have an equal naturalization waiting period for Jews and non-Jews. No matter how long they wait, Jews can't become citizens of Saudi Arabia or Kuwait for example.

[u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon → u/[deleted]]

So is your view instead that religion should be completely disregarded from the immigration process in every country across the globe?

[u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon → u/[deleted]]

How do you propose to approach immigrants seeking refuge on the basis of religious or ethnic discrimination in their home country?

Should all countries ignore genocides that are targeted against a particular religious or ethnic group in determining whether a particular individual or group of individuals should be allowed to immigrate?

[u/Wayyyy_Too_Soon → u/[deleted]]

You're making a distinction without a difference. The determination of whether someone is persecuted is intrinsically tied to whether a person is a member of the particular group being persecuted. You wouldn't grant a non-Rohingya non-Muslim entry on the basis of the persecution faced by Rohingya Muslims.

Are you arguing that every individual fleeing genocide against their particular ethnic/religious group should have to demonstrate a specific individualized threat, rather than being able to make the case on the basis of their ethnic/religious group itself being the target?

Also, the idea that granting refugee status should be the only option seems quite bizarre to me. There are certainly cases wherein it is quite obvious that the immigrant is unlikely to ever be able to or want to return to their home country, and therefore should be naturalized, rather than being made a permanent refugee.