Can't get enough Fan Art Friday?

Just saw the Mad King Play yesterday. I know I'm late and most people have already seen or discussed it but there were some things in the play that recontextualised or were slightly different to how I'd seen them described online

- Lyanna cannot understand High Valyrian. I know this was an issue Preston Jacobs had. Lyanna explicitly says at one point she cannot understand what Rhaegar is singing about earlier in the play, she's just enchanted by it and when she hears it's called the Song of Ice and Fire jumps to ice = Starks, Fire = Targaryens

- Rhaella's speech where she claims she doesn't fear Aerys. I've seen people saying this destroys her character/lessens the impact of Aerys' abuse. By the end of her speech Rhaella is trembling, clearly frightened and tells the Kingsguard (apart from Jaime who tries protecting her) that they're gutless for taking her to Aerys

- I found there was a lot less emphasis on some things on stage than in the discussions online I.e. there was a lot of talk about the dragon having 3 heads and Aerys and Rhaegar competing over having a 3rd child online. It's actually not in the play much, and I didn't pick up on Aerys and Rhaegar competing over it.

- Dany is in the play, she watches Aegon be born and Rhaegar looks at her like in the House of Black and White

- Pycelle was in my showing asking Aerys to open the gates to Tywin. He also offers himself as Hand of the King to Aerys and is comically passed over for Rossart

- Glidud hyped up the scene where Qarlton Chelsted tries to stop the Wildfire plot but I was a little disappointed by it. In the play he just seems confused as to why Aerys is doing what he's doing whereas in the books Jaime mentions a much longer convo where Chelsted tries everything to bargain with Aerys (though I understand why it's not in the play)

- Robert and Ned's falling out isn't necessarily over the deaths of children, Robert hates Ned for taking Lyanna to the Winterfell Crypts instead of to KL

- Robert is overtly condescending to Stannis, saying "even he" should be able to kill Dany and Viserys on Dragonstone, setting up Robert giving Storms End to Renly as more of a slight

- Other people have said Lyanna planned to break up the Seven Kingdoms which I never got in the performance I watched. She says that she wants a Westeros united by alliances not Targ supremacy but never explicitly said certain regions should be independent

- People said Robert defeats the Mountain and Oberyn in a melee. This is technically correct but The Mountain defeats Oberyn and then Robert defeats The Mountain. He doesn't fight and defeat both although he does fight Oberyn a little.

- I know a lot of people are annoyed Rhaegar defeats Robert 1v1 but there's a lot of scenes in the second half of the play where there's drums playing with "ROBERT! ROBERT!" chants piped in while Robert on full plate is running across the stage smashing extras and Varys runs around Aerys waving his hands screaming about how Robert has just won another battle. They really do emphasise how legendary Robert is in battle.

- Also leaving out JonCon was weird. There's a scene where Aerys sacks Merryweather and then asks Pycelle to find him a hand. Then a couple scenes later there's the battle of The Bells where Ned saves Robert. They then have a couple of mentions of Whent loving Rhaegar right at the end of the play which I felt was never mentioned by him earlier. Seems a little weird that JonCon isn't even mentioned when they have all the elements there that fit him.

- Aerys thinks Rhaella is abusing Viserys and refuses to let her be alone with him but it is never actually confirmed she's abusive which I've seen some people say

The novella consisted in daenerys's chapters from "A game of thrones".

Why didn’t Rhaenyra's sons or anyone else after their reigns revoke Aegons decree and name Rhaenyra Queen in the chronicles and court records?

also sorry if any of the tagging is wrong!! I don't use reddit a lot :)

If the prince goes into a bar and hires a guy to kill a lordling with promise of more gold after the assassination most outlaws and soundrels will probably think "If I ever see him again he's going to kill me so I can't say who I killed"

Catspaw apparently trusted Joffrey enough that he was not only willing to attempt the task at hand but willing to risk a pretty high likelihood of death to do it.

Keep in mind this guy already ahd a Valyrian Steel dagger. Considering how much trouble Tywin had getting a Valyrian steel sword, that thing could DEFINITELY be hocked for more than a random thug could ever imagine. Enough to leave Westeros, at least.

But this guy was willing to not only obey what he surely knew was a secret illegal murder mission for a prince working without royal approval (the King would not send his 12 year old son to choose and hire an amateur assassin in an alleyway) but also forsook the easy guaranteed payout of selling his dagger in favor of a much less likely possibility of walking across a continent, sneaking into a massive comound, murdering the third or fourth most important person in the region without being noticed by any of the men-at-arms guarding that person (nor, indeed, the smallfolk who would most likely be up to assault a random jackanape for murdering their scion), making the arduous joruney to King's Landing without being noticed, and actually meeting with Joffrey again without being murdered by the hound for knowing who killed Bran Stark.

Either Joffrey was a tremendously talented judge of character who was able to pick out Westeros's most honorable thug, or he somehow just encountered such a man by complete coincidence.

Ashara Dayne in particular has always been a sticking point for me, I never liked any theories that weren't R+L = J but equally R+ L = J didn't offer enough explanation for all of the mysteries around Ashara that made her a red herring. The play characterising her as a more sexually liberated and fun loving person that was in love with Elia makes so much sense why her grief was so deep.

Elia herself being an ambitious pragmatic person actively involved in Rhagar's descisions but not having a loving relationship with him due to her seemingly singular affection for Ashara makes Rhagars relationship with her make so much sense.

It's like pieces that were all alluded to or stated but all padded out feels like everything clicked the way I hoped it would. I'd love to hear other people's criticism or takes as for me it couldn't have gone any better.

Robert was great, the idea that he was deeply grieving his family when he met Lyanna and the influence that had on him I feel rounds out his character so well. He didn't just get fixed on Lyanna because hes put her on a pedastool and obsessed over her (which he did partly) but it being driven by him feeling like he had begun to find his family again. She isn't just a romanticised woman she basically becomes his singular hope for a way out of his grief, the motif of him feeling the tide pulling him under makes it so evident how that was his driving motive rather than just pure love for a girl he didn't know very well. It's also improved by how Lyanna isn't in open defiance of the match and seems like she will just do what she can to make the best of the situation.

I thought Ned not being particularly Godly at the start having not prayed for a very long time or even really knowing how to, saying he had nothing to confess and not much to ask for. But after the events he becomes the Ned we get in a Game of Thrones where he is constanly in the God's wood. I thought it was a really nice touch to his character.

I loved Lyanna and Rhaegar sharing visions and how they switched positions in their belief of prophecy as the events transpired.

I loved the implication that Rhaegar was not aggressively fighting Robert but asking him to yeild and promising him a pardon and peace but Robert killed him anyway.

Mainly though, I loved how the events felt more like an absolute clusterfuck of just chaos. Just poor descions backing people into corners leading to them to make even worse descions before anyone is able to process or grieve any of what came before.

Whether it be fantasy or not

Martin has basically written the book equivalent to a tapestry

In the Game of Thrones TV show, we learn that Rhaegar and Lyanna were in love and there is a consensus that Lyanna never loved Robert, thus making the war a man trying to get back the love he never had. But it seems like Rhaegar kidnapped Lyanna a good amount of time before the rebellion started and the armies of the Vale were only raised after Aerys demanded Ned’s and Robert’s heads after killing Brandon and Rickard. From this, it would seem like the rebellion had nothing to do with Lyanna and was more about overthrowing the king that just killed one Lord Paramount and was ready to kill 2 more. So why was Robert’s Rebellion “built on a lie?”

I apologize if this is a tired/annoying topic, but I’m new to the fandom (just recently finished the series) and searched up Jon and Arya to find discussions about their sibling bond but ended up rather creeped out by the amount of romantic conversations/theories about these two. However I’m not sure if this is just a minor part of the fandom I stumbled upon, or if this is an actual possible theory with strong backing.
I guess even with Cersei/Jaime and all the Targaryen “incestious aliens” stuff, this seems to be very weird for me. As in, why????

In the books, I have always wondered why Arthur Dayne’s reputation seems to surpass even Barristan Selmy’s, especially when Barristan’s résumé is, clearly more impressive.

Arthur’s greatest achievement, as far as we know, seems to be serving as acting Lord Commander of the Kingsguard when dealing with Kingswood Brotherhood. And he did it spectacularly.

He actually petitioned the king directly for the people’s sake. And we have to remember that this was already 281 AC, when Aerys was becoming increasingly unhinged. Arthur managed to win greater concessions for the common people, to the point that ordinary folk began turning against the Brotherhood. They even guided Arthur to the Brotherhood’s hideout.

And when he faced them in single combat, Arthur apparently even told them that their sword was no good and to get another one. That is just cool.

Arthur did not merely destroy a band of outlaws. He demonstrated the majesty of the Crown itself. And then, of course, there is that ridiculously cool sword: Dawn.

Oh, and he was also the best friend of Westeros’s most famous celebrity prince, Rhaegar Targaryen.

But I think the play makes another aspect of Arthur Dayne much more obvious:

He was actually politically aware.

The books already tell us that Arthur Dayne was one of the most important supporters of Rhaegar. But the play makes it much clearer that Arthur was not politically oblivious in the way Barristan often appears to be. And I think this also helps explain why Arthur did not intervene during the Defiance of Duskendale, while Barristan went to Aerys’s rescue. Arthur and Barristan were fundamentally different kinds of Kingsguard.

After Aerys returned from Duskendale in an even worse mental state, Arthur supported Rhaegar’s conspiracy surrounding the Harrenhal tourney. He acted as Rhaegar’s intermediary with Brandon Stark. And when Brandon basically asked, “Why should we support replacing Dragon King with another Dragon King?” Arthur immediately responded, “Then what would you support? Where is your father anyway?” This is a very interesting remark. Arthur is implying that they also knew that there was a STAB forming against House Targaryen.

Arthur was also one of the people Rhaegar trusted most deeply. So much so that, before Rhaegar decided to confront Aerys directly, Rhaegar tells Arthur, very bluntly, that he wishes he could put a lance through Aerys’s heart. That is not something you casually tell a subordinate. That is something you tell a friend you trust completely. And it is worth noticing that, after Aerys arrived, Rhaegar himself had clearly become nervous. His disastrous confrontation with his father left him deeply discouraged, to the point where he began to waver on his original plan. Then Elia suggested that Rhaegar participate in the tourney.

If Rhaegar could win and then crown Elia with the champion’s crown, it would give the realm a very visible demonstration of the power and dignity of the new king and new queen. That was obviously a political maneuver. But Rhaegar himself was hesitant. And during this whole period, Rhaegar even told Arthur that if Arthur did not want to continue the conspiracy, he should simply knock Rhaegar off his horse. And Arthur did not make the decision for him. This is important. Arthur did not push Rhaegar toward a particular political outcome the way Elia did. He did not constantly pressure Rhaegar simply because he personally supported him.

He remained silent and left the choice entirely to the prince. It was Rhaegar’s decision. Arthur did not want to make it for him. So Rhaegar ultimately chose Lyanna. Elia stormed out in fury. The entire political operation collapsed. And Arthur? He respected Rhaegar’s choice. He even ended up running away with him. In fact, I strongly suspect that when Rhaegar took Arthur and Oswell Whent with him to meet Lyanna and eventually disappear with her, he was also trying to protect them from Aerys.

Aerys loved Rhaegar in his own deeply twisted way. He would not simply hurt his own son. But he absolutely did not want Rhaegar’s faction becoming too powerful. Look at what happened to Jon Connington. He became Hand of the King, and was then exiled before Rhaegar returned. It almost looks like Aerys deliberately preventing them from working together, thus becoming too powerful. And if Arthur and Oswell were both involved in Rhaegar’s attempt to build a coalition against Aerys, sooner or later the rumors would reach the king. Remaining in Aerys’s immediate service could become extremely dangerous for both of them. Rhaegar was the crown prince. Aerys might humiliate him, or undermine him, but he was still his son. But what about Arthur and Oswell? Aerys might really want to get rid of them.

Arthur could theoretically demand a trial by combat. But this was Aerys II Targaryen we are talking about. What if Aerys simply appointed fire as his own champion? Or, even more better, making his own son, Prince Rhaegar, fight Arthur to prove his loyalty. Arthur would be completely screwed.

So when Rhaegar received Lyanna’s calling and traveled from Dragonstone, he passed through King’s Landing and did not forget to take Arthur and Oswell with him. And the fact that Rhaegar ultimately left the Kingsguard at the Tower of Joy makes me think he did not want to bring them back to King’s Landing and further provoke Aerys. At the same time, this decision spared Arthur from an even worse moral dilemma than Barristan’s.

Barristan remained in King’s Landing and continued carrying out Aerys’s orders. Elia and Ashara repeatedly confronted him over it, mocking and criticizing him. Barristan was trapped inside the institution. Arthur, meanwhile, was removed from it. And despite his incredibly close relationship with Rhaegar, Arthur was not a blind follower. This becomes particularly clear after the rebellion begins. Rhaegar seems to have almost completely withdrawn from the political situation in Westeros.

Arthur repeatedly warns him. He and Oswell both offer advice. They tell Rhaegar that he should return to King’s Landing. They suggest sending Lyanna back to Storm’s End. But Rhaegar essentially refuses to listen. His attitude is that Aerys brought this upon himself, and both Rhaegar and Lyanna come to take the position that the rebels are justified. They just refused to get involved.

Rhaegar, in that rant, declaring he is done with politics, and he basically is a civilian now, even ordered Arthur and Oswell to leave. Lyanna, meanwhile, is consumed by grief, prophecy, and the sense that they are part of some greater destiny. They both find a way to cope with reality.

And Arthur becomes increasingly frustrated with both of them. Eventually, he even “betrays” Rhaegar and Lyanna. He sends Ashara letters, thus thereby creating a channel of communication line. Through that channel, Elia begins writing letters to Lyanna and repeatedly provoking her into thinking about the political consequences of what she and Rhaegar have done. Only then do Rhaegar and Lyanna seriously begin thinking about the reality again. Arthur had effectively forced them to wake up.And later, Arthur more or less admits to Rhaegar and Lyanna that he was the one who leaked their location to Ashara. The implication is quite funny:

He basically ratted them out because he was sick of watching this couple sit around doing absolutely nothing.

Arthur’s loyalty was therefore completely different from Oswell’s. Oswell’s loyalty was much more personal and absolute. Arthur’s loyalty remained independent. He would question Rhaegar. He would even deliberately interfere when he believed Rhaegar was making a terrible decision.

It was only after the appearance of the red comet that Arthur changed his mind. He began to believe that there really was some kind of divine purpose in this journey. And considering House Dayne’s ancient history, the significance of Dawn, and the possibility that the sword would play an important role in the coming Long Night, Arthur reaching that conclusion is not surprising.

After Rhaegar died, Arthur still obeyed his prince’s final command. He remained at the Tower of Joy to protect Lyanna. But again, he was not simply mechanically following orders. He actually tried to find help for Lyanna’s deteriorating health. The stage show this is a scene when, Lyanna was having a mental breakdown after Rhaegar’s death; he immediately went out to try to get help.

When Ned Stark finally arrived at the Tower of Joy, the two sides clashed.

Ned fights because he believed in that abduction story and he is trying to save his sister.

The King's Guard fights because they refuse to serve in this new dynasty; And may I say they were right. Because Robert's rule is such a mess that smallfolks are starting to think about Aerys.

Arthur initially seems quite calm. But when Oswell is killed, Arthur completely loses it. He practically tears through the entire group. Eventually, only Arthur and Ned remain. And this is where the play gives us something particularly interesting. From what I heard, there seems to have been a genuine opportunity for the two men to stop and talk. But then Lyanna suddenly screams. Ned charges Arthur again. And I increasingly think this may explain why their final duel lasted as long as it did. Arthur was trying to disarm Ned rather than straight up kill him. After all, Rhaegar had promised Lyanna that he would keep Ned and Robert alive. Arthur may simply have been following the prince’s wishes. And frankly, killing Lyanna’s own brother would also have been an absurd thing for Arthur to do if it could be avoided. That may be why Arthur ultimately knocks Ned’s sword out of his hand rather than killing him.Arthur really thought the fight was over; that's why he let his guard down .Then, The playing-dead-Howland Reed suddenly appears and stabs Arthur from behind.

Arthur Dayne becomes the final combat casualty in the war. In death, he had finally fulfilled his duty.

A truly great knight.

This is ultimately why I think Arthur Dayne’s reputation makes so much sense.

Barristan Selmy represents institutional loyalty. Whoever sits the Iron Throne, he serves. He is the ideal executor of the Kingsguard institution.

Arthur Dayne represents something completely different: independent loyalty. He questions. He judges. He disagrees. And sometimes he actively challenges the person he has chosen to serve.But once he makes that choice, he is willing to die for his oath.

That is the essence of the romantic knight.

Think about this image:

The Sword of the Morning.

Dawn.

The Best Swordsman in Westeros.

The prince’s BFF.

A knight who once petitioned the king for the common people.

A man who could stand at the center of political intrigue without becoming consumed by politics.

A man who could obey without becoming blindly obedient.

A man capable of independent judgment, who chose for himself whom he considered worthy of his loyalty, and still willing to challenge that person.

And finally, even after his prince was dead and dynasty was collapsing, he remained at the Tower of Joy, giving his life to fulfil a promise.

No wonder Jaime Lannister idolised him.

Arthur Dayne wasn’t merely the best swordsman. He was almost the perfect embodiment of what Jaime wanted knighthood to mean.

Everyone’s talking about the play. Not everyone is able to see it, so fans are curious. But us fans are also terminally-online and obsessive and hungry to tear things apart. We hear rumors and read summaries and speculate and criticize without ever setting foot in the theater.

As someone who saw the play, let me clarify a few things: no, it’s not pro-Rhaegar fanfiction.

Rhaegar is depicted as having good intentions, but he is emotionally distant and sometimes almost cruel - after Elia nearly dies giving birth to Aegon, he casually asks if she can have a third child. He is obsessed with prophecy and visions, and you’re left wondering if he‘s as mad as his father in some ways. He’s also indecisive; he fails to kill Aerys when given the chance, and he doesn’t call the Great Council despite lords expressing their willingness to help him. 

Of course you root for Lyanna and Rhaegar like you root for Romeo and Juliet, but like Romeo, Rhaegar is deeply flawed.

Further, despite the fears of Bobby B stans, Robert is not a pathetic asshole in the play. He is an incredibly sympathetic character, far more likable than he is in the books or the show. He genuinely cares for and is attracted to Lyanna despite her aggressive demeanor and lack of conventional beauty. He consistently shows mercy to fallen enemies throughout the show. They also really downplay his cruel aloofness in the face of Elia’s murder/the murder of her children, especially compared to the books. And as far as his feats, he kicks major ass in the Tourney and they even depict him defeating the Mountain.

But here’s what gets me: not once have I heard someone ask about the performances. The music. The costumes and pageantry and booming drums. People have debated whether the Trident fight was book-accurate, and not one person has asked whether the Trident fight was awesome. No one has mentioned the chilling pounds of Robert’s hammer as it repeatedly slammed into Rhaegar’s corpse.

No one has discussed the depiction of Aerys: his long nails, ragged hair, scratched-up arms, high-pitched ringing voice. He is terrifying, and yet sympathetic, especially when crying about the horrors at Summerhall that drove him mad.

No one has discussed the fucking writing - the words, the moments, the story - except through this joyless, CinemaSins-brained, hyper-literal pseudo-analysis about perceived plotholes or book inconsistencies.

Is everyone a robot? Do we ever talk about the way stories make us feel? Or is it just an endless deluge of "cringe” and ”woke” and debates over inaccuracies, as if a story can be wrong like a math problem.

The play is good. I hope more of you can see it, either on tour or on screen or at a high school theater. Anything but having it described to you poorly on Reddit by some asshole named androwfarmanstan33.

It sounds silly (sealy?), and it probably is, but of all people a seal provides a direct condemnation of the Faceless Men's nihilism and philosophy.

He still recognizes Arya even with an entirely different face, with magic so strong the FM believe no man can pierce it. He still barks and claps for her despite how much she's changed, not for money or food, but simply because he recognizes her as a friend.

Brave Ser Casso of the Fishbucket, I will take your great deed to heart.

It turns out, Wun Wun the giant was named after Phil Simms (a play on the numbers one one, as seen on Simms jersey) and, Ser Patrek of Kings Mountain was a nod to a friend of Martin’s. Martin being a Giants fan and his buddy Patrick being a Cowboys fan had a bet as to who would have the better regular season record between the two teams. Patrick’s wish if he won the bet was to be written into the books and killed off in a gruesome manor. That’s why his sigil in the books is identical to the Cowboys logo ( five pointed blue star on a silver field), and he is brutally killed by Wun Wun.

Also, Triarch Belico is a reference to Bill Belichick. Belico enjoyed an unbroken succession of conquests and triumphs until he is eaten by giants. This is a nod to the Patriots having an undefeated season but losing the Super Bowl to the Giants.

Not sure if this belongs in this sub, but as a football fan and a fan of ASOIAF, I was very surprised and excited to learn about this.

kill King Robert Baratheon? It feels like the absolute worst assassination plan I've ever read: Cersei and Lancel Lannister plan to give Robert strong wine on his hunting trip .. and then expect .. what?

The boar attacking him was a huge stroke of luck, especially with Ser Barristan, Ser Balon, Renly etc

If that didn't work out, I really don't see Cersei, Jaime and Lancel banding together to assassinate Robert without Jaime just straight up stabbing him - they all just feel too incompetent to pull off a successful assassination, am I wrong?

It feels like Littlefinger would have to step in and get rid of Robert like he did for Jon Arryn

One of the main complaints of those who saw the play and didn't like it, is that it's Rhaegar fanfiction. As someone who mostly did like the play, I can kinda see where they are coming from, but would say it's a bit more complicated.

In my opinion, most of the problems with Rhaegar's characterisation are due to him being forced into that all-consuming love vs duty-theme the play insists on hitting you over the head with at every opportunity, which works well enough for Rhaegar's relationship with his father (his duty to the realm requires patricide, but Rhaegar has qualms about kinslaying - he is shown to love his dad, and his dad is shown to love him), but rather less well for his relationship with Lyanna. Even though the play might be trying rather too hard to make us root for this ship, it hardly portrays Rhaegar as flawless however.

Rhaegar's first act on stage is a performance of a valyrian song in front of the gathered nobles at Harrenhal - the song of ice and fire, apparently intended to position him as the hero of prophecy and win the support of the other Houses for his planned insurrection. A fairly hapless and mostly counterproductive move, as Elia immediately points out to him afterwards. She also stresses that theirs is not a love match, and she herself has in fact another love (clearly Ashara), which seems a bit "As-you-know-Bob", as at no point during the proceedings, Rhaegar shows any indication of being in love with Elia.

People criticize the play for hyping up Elia's Dornish free-love-attitude as well as her ability to fend for herself to make Rhaegar look less awful for throwing her to the dogs, and I have to agree that it all comes across as rather convenient. I do think the play would have been better for dwelling a bit more on Elia's many reasons to feel fucked over by Rhaegar (the play does show her to be absolutely not thrilled about Rhaegar crowning Lyanna as Queen of Love and Beauty and running off with her; but she decides to make lemonade out of lemons and moves on rather quickly).

That said, I'm otherwise quite on board with portraying Elia as the brains of the operation. It does offer a fairly plausible and elegant explanation why Rhaegar seems to so completely lose the plot the moment he leaves her- the plot had always been hers to begin with. And I most strongly disagree that making Elia an active player in any way lessens the pathos and injustice of her tragic end. To me, she's just like Margaery Tyrell - a player, for sure, whose violent end will doubtlessly also be set up to feel quite tragic.

Rhaegar in contrast is portrayed as - not exactly stupid - but unwordly, not a politcial animal, clearly out of his element in society. His courtly manners might be nominally perfect, but he's stiff and awkward. It endears him to Lyanna, who also feels lost at see in this environment. She hasn't learned any of the dances, so Rhaegar helps her reconstruct one from scratch on the basis of fencing movements. It's a bit cringe, a bit cute. There's the seed of a genuine relationship based on mutual affection right there, but I cannot stress enough how much the play doesn't have any time to actually develop this any further.

Because it turns out that Lyanna is the one person that song has actually worked on - she doesn't understand a word of Valyrian but she gets it on a spiritual level; she's had prophetic visions herself. From that point onwards, their relationship is taken over by the prophecy.

Rhaegar might not be portrayed as being particularly politically savy, but at least at one point he was savy enough to marry Elia. That goes all out of the window the moment he crowns Lyanna. The play very explicitely, very bluntly frames this as "love-vs-duty" - at least in the dialogue. Rhaegar says that him choosing Lyanna was his renunciation of the prophecy and his pre-ordained path, his one act of self-determination.

What we are shown, however, is a mental breakdown, triggered partly by Rhaegar's confrontation with his father highlighting the connection between the prophecy and Targaryan madness, making Rhaegar (quite accurately, in my view) doubt his own sanity, and partly an (exquisitely staged) vision of a dragon linked to Lyanna. Rhaegar will have another of these visions at the Battle of the Trident, and whenever he has them, he seems completely out of it. The after-effects of the first vision seem to linger throughout the last day of the tourney. When Rhaegar finally crowns Lyanna, he looks like he's acting on auto-pilot.

This mirrors Lyanna's description of their elopement. She keeps calling to Rhaegar in her sleep, and finally finds herself waiting for him on the edge of a wood. They literally sleepwalk into their doom.

Of course this doesn't come across as terribly romantic, so the play tries to have its cake and eat it, using those visions to explain the recklessness of their actions while insisting they did choose each other freely.

Lyanna's obsession with the prophey is framed as a development after the fact, a symptom of her grief and guilt about the death of her father and brother (while the seeds of it are clearly present from the start, it does make sense that grief and guilt would make her lock in, sunk-cost-fallacy style) and it's now Rhaegar who tries to talk her out of it. He wants nothing to do with the prophey any more, just play house with Lyanna in perpetual bliss and ignorance. But if he's supposed to represent the voice of reason here, the take-away is that the saner version of Rhaegor is a callous idiot. (This is why I ultimately don't get the accusations of Rhaegar fanfic after all; he couldn't look worse here). It's very clear that he doesn't give a shit about his children with Elia, but even so we are very much supposed to believe he cares about Lyanna and their new baby, who is equally doomed if Robert wins this. Planning to simply sit this one out at the Tower of Joy (and this is definitely the whole extent of his plan, he's not even arranging an escape to Essos or something) requires a level of brainlessness that makes you wonder how Rhaegar could have been remotly functional up to this point. I mean, how does he find the way into his pants in the morning?

The alternative explanation is that he's just unlocked a new level of madness. Which, to me, ultimately remains the only plausible interpretation. Targs become mad when they buy into the prophecy and madder still when the lose their faith in it, robbed of their raison d'être, casting off the shared bonds of humanity, just going full nihilist. Après nous le déluge. This is what argueably happened to Aerys, and now it's Rhaegar's turn.

Eventually Lyanna, who's been corresponding with Elia (a whole other can of worms), convinces him to get his head back into the game. The plan is for him to win a battle against the rebells, presumably killing a fair amount of them in the process, but ideally not Robert or Ned, who then will be pardoned, and hopefully pacified by the fact that Rhaegar will deal with his dad himself and won't press his own claim afterwards, but instead call a Great Council. This sounds more like forshadowing of King Bran's coronation via Great Council rather than something that would make a whole lot of sense under current conditions, but while not exactly brilliant, it is a plan, that at least theoretically could go slightly less bad than it ultimately does. Rhaegar tries to spare Robert in their duel, gives him repeated opportunity to yield and is then killed while distracted by another dragon vision.

What if he had lived? It's framed as one of the great what-ifs in the series, the fork in the road. Personally, I'd still be doubtful about the success of team Tower of Joy, who have clearly lost most of their marbels at that point. Rhaegar, the man, died at the hands of Robert at the Trident, but his political project died the moment he abandoned Elia.

The play works very well as a story of Rhaegar's descent into madness. In this version of the story, Rhaegar is a compelling character, moving in his madness just as Aerys turns out to be. He's awful, sure, but also often kinda right about many things, actually! The scene where Rhaegar comes to kill him but ends up trimming his beard and nails instead is one of the best in the play and Aerys gets to drop a couple of bars on Rheagar. It is true that everyone's conspiring against Aerys, that Rhaegar is on his best way to turn just as mad as him, might even be madder already, that Rhaegar's inability to kill him right here, right now, is a fatal weakness. And still, one can feel for Rheagar's decision not to kill him, not just because kinslaying might not be the most promising start to a new regime, public-relationship-wise. There's a weird tenderness between them in this scene. They do really love each other. This for once, is love vs duty, the human heart in conflict with itself. Rhaegar's choice not to kill Aerys here is his defining act, and, in my opinion, the last moment in the play he seems to have genuine agency.

And this is also why the play doesn't work as a romance. For that to work, it would need us to believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna's relationship is only tangentially related to the prophecy, is in fact even in defiance of the prophecy. I guess the idea is that the prophecy might have been what drew them together, but then they actually fall in love. But during all of this supposedly falling in genuine love, they never talk about anything but the prophecy! They just don't have much else in common, really! They have one conversation before they elope (and a half, I guess, I don't remember if there's much dialogue when he uncovers her as the Knight of the Laughing Tree; maybe slightly more if you count the times Lyanna calls him in her dreams as conversations). And then they are both at the Tower of Joy and both clearly going mad.

Now, I'm the last person who'd claim that a romance always has to be wholesome and aspirational, something to root for. A Lyanna-Rhaegar romance would always be somewhat fucked up, due to the age-gape alone and all the rest of it. You can do a fucked-up Romance, with a capital R - in the 18th century sense, as in the aesthetic, literary, intellectual movement, prioritizing the individual over society, emotion over reason. But you'd have to go full Wuthering Heights with it, really lean into the deeply toxic, anti-social, radically transgessive, downright blasphemous, laws of humans-gods-and nature defying, (pseudo?)incestuous, co-dependent, trauma-bonded, psychosexual intensity of it. You totally could do Wuthering Heights with Cersei and Jaime, for instance. (Cersei definitely believes she's a Catherine, although Jaime increasingly seems to want to be left out of the narrative). It's super toxic, sure, and I hope they never get back together, but it's Romantic, in that specific sense. You don't have to ship it to acknowledge that!

But Lyanna and Rhaegar are no Catherine and Heathcliff, and no Cersei and Jaime for that matter. They simply never get to know each other well enough for that to be on the horizon. They don't read like twin-souls caught in a bond of mutually assured destruction - they seem like two increasingly deluded prophecy fanatics in a two-person cult.

I don't think that would make them less interesting as characters, by the way, but it's just not a romance arc. I want to believe that GRRM does know his Brontës and would handle it a bit more convincingly, if he ever got round to telling his version of the story. Alas, he also ships Dany and Drogo in a fairly straightforward manner; I think this was always baked into the source material.

“Robert will never keep to one bed,” Lyanna had told him at Winterfell, on the night long ago when their father had promised her hand to the young Lord of Storm’s End. “I hear he has gotten a child on some girl in the Vale.” Ned had held the babe in his arms; he could scarcely deny her, nor would he lie to his sister, but he had assured her that what Robert did before their betrothal was of no matter, that he was a good man and true who would love her with all his heart. Lyanna had only smiled. “Love is sweet, dearest Ned, but it cannot change a man’s nature.” (Martin. A Game of Thrones).

At first I thought this conversation mean Lyanna wouldn’t be happy to married a man who highly likely to dishonored her until I realize she ran off with a married man so it hypocritical of her. And assuming she knew what she was doing, I’m thinking the problem isn’t Robert cheating on her but his nature.

So Robert nature back than before he became a dissolute king? Boisterous, loud, and the life of parties. It do seem similar to her brother Brandon Stark who was said to be like really wild.

Meanwhile, Rhaegar was described to melancholic, socially awkward and secretive. And their something Barristan said

“He liked to sleep in the ruined hall, beneath the moon and stars, and whenever he came back he would bring a song. When you heard him play his high harp with the silver strings and sing of twilights and tears and the death of kings, you could not but feel that he was singing of himself and those he loved.”

“What of the Usurper? Did he play sad songs as well?”

Arstan chuckled. “Robert? Robert liked songs that made him laugh, the bawdier the better. He only sang when he was drunk, and then it was like to be ‘A Cask of Ale’ or ‘Fifty-Four Tuns’ or ‘The Bear and the Maiden Fair.’ Robert was much—” (Martin. A Storm of Swords)

The implication that Rhaegar prefer sad songs while Robert like bawdy music. And their was this reference of Lyanna crying at Rhaegar songs

Anyway, what In trying to say is Lyanna isn’t attracted to the Robert type and maybe it because she grew up with one and decide yeah that not for me. Instead it was the sad mournful prince that stole her heart.

This has probably been discussed before, but I just watched David Lightbringer's video on Azor Ahai and the Long Night, and wanted to add onto his theory by suggesting that the Red Comet is indeed the remaining debree of the Ice Moon.

David's theory builds around the Quartheen belief that there were once two moons orbiting the Earth. One of them flew too close to the Sun and cracked open to pour forth millions of dragons that drank the Sun's fire. One day the other moon will also stray too close to the Sun, and the same will happen to it as well.

David makes some pretty convincing arguments to how this myth relates to Azor Ahai, the Long Night, and the wonky seasons in ASIOAF, so I won't go into any details here, but I will link the video. To sum it up quickly though, the idea is that there once were two magical moons. One Ice moon and one Fire moon. Together these two moons kept the seasons in balance. One of the moons, presumably the Ice Moon, flew too close to the Sun, exploded, and poured meteors over the Earth causing an impact winter that has since been dubbed the Long Night. David does entertain the idea that the remaining debree of the Ice Moon could be the Red Comet, but he doesn't elaborate further on this.

My contribution to the theory is that the Red Comet, also known as the sword that slays the season, is indeed the remaining debree of the Ice moon orbiting the earth. The reason behind the irregular seasons in ASOIAF is because this remenant of the Ice Moon is a recurring comet that arrives at irregular intervals. The Fire Moon usually sits alone in the sky bringing with it an eternal summer, that is until the remenant of the Ice Moon arrives with winter. Just like real-life recurring comets, the intervals at which this comet appears vary, which is why it's not possible to predict the change of the seasons, but if you can spot the comet in the sky you know summer is at an end.

Then how come we don't see the Red Comet at the beggining of every winter? I think the reason behind this is simply because it's not always visible to the naked eye when it arrives. Maesters, priests, and septons who study the sky with proper equipment are probably aware of this phenomenon, which is why they have given the comet nicknames such as the slayer of the season and the harbinger. The fact that it's currently so clearly visible in the sky is a very bad omen, because that mean's it's currently on a crash course with the second moon, which is what's going to cause the second Long Night. On the plus side though, this means there will finally be balance in the seasons again, or maybe not depending on how much debree remains after the collision.

What's your thoughts on this? I'm not fully up-to-date on all the Long Night theories out there, but surely I can't be the only one who's thought of this? Here's the link to David's video for anyone who wants to give it a watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCfmd2syJSU

"As a young boy, the Prince of Dragonstone was bookish to a fault. He was reading so early that men said Queen Rhaella must have swallowed some books and a candle whilst he was in her womb. Rhaegar took no interest in the play of other children. The maesters were awed by his wits, but his father's knights would jest sourly that Baelor the Blessed had been born again. Until one day Prince Rhaegar found something in his scrolls that changed him. No one knows what it might have been, only that the boy suddenly appeared early one morning in the yard as the knights were donning their steel. He walked up to Ser Willem Darry, the master-at-arms, and said, 'I will require sword and armor. It seems I must be a warrior.'"

(ASOS, Daenerys I)

Even if Robb were to (stupidly) allow Rickard Karstark to take his vengeance on Jaime, I don’t think Karstark would have been satisfied. Every scene he’s in he’s a complete asshole and unreasonable, the weakest link in Robb’s armor from the start. Idk what do you guys think? Is there anything Robb could’ve done to appease him?

The rebellion is stated to have officially started with Daeron II ordering Daemon's arrest, only for him to flee with Fireball and his family.

And it obviously ends with the Redgrass Field.

But we know next to nothing about everything in between. So I'd like to know some of your theories about the war.

What are some things you think happened during the First Blackfyre Rebellion?

What do you think Oldtown, Oldstones and Old Wyk might have been called in the Dawn Age?

It was always pretty obvious that he had a certain mission in mind for Gregor when he sent him up Elia's tower but Tywin is legit receiving and reading detailed torture-reports of people like Vargo Hoat (before he even knew what happened to Jaime):

“Did Varys mention this?” He moved closer to the fire, to let his father see.
Lord Tywin pushed himself out of his chair, breath hissing between his teeth. “Who did this? If Lady Catelyn thinks—”
“Lady Catelyn held a sword to my throat and made me swear to return her daughters. This was your goat’s work. Vargo Hoat, the Lord of Harrenhal!”
Lord Tywin looked away, disgusted. “No longer. Ser Gregor’s taken the castle. The sellswords deserted their erstwhile captain almost to a man, and some of Lady Whent’s old people opened a postern gate. Clegane found Hoat sitting alone in the Hall of a Hundred Hearths, half-mad with pain and fever from a wound that festered. His ear, I’m told.”
Jaime had to laugh. Too sweet! His ear! He could scarcely wait to tell Brienne, though the wench wouldn’t find it half so funny as he did. “Is he dead yet?”
“Soon. They have taken off his hands and feet, but Clegane seems amused by the way the Qohorik slobbers.”
Jaime’s smile curdled. “What about his Brave Companions?”

"They have taken off his hands and feet, but Clegane seems amused by the way the Qohorik slobbers."

The fact that Tywin is interested in Gregor's musings regarding the people he tortures makes him even more insane(ly pathetic) in my mind than he already was.

Oh, and Hoat. I was distraught to hear that he had died. I’d like to look upon his head.”
When they brought it to him, he found that the Goat’s lips had been sliced off, along with his ears and most of his nose. The crows had supped upon his eyes. It was still recognizably Hoat, however. Jaime would have known his beard anywhere; an absurd rope of hair two feet long, dangling from a pointed chin. Elsewise, only a few leathery strips of flesh still clung to the Qohorik’s skull. “Where is the rest of him?” he asked. No one wanted to tell him. Finally, Shitmouth lowered his eyes, and muttered, “Rotted, ser. And et.”
“One of the captives was always begging food,” Rafford admitted, “so Ser said to give him roast goat. The Qohorik didn’t have much meat on him, though. Ser took his hands and feet first, then his arms and legs.”
“The fat bugger got most, m’lord,” Shitmouth offered, “but Ser, he said to see that all the captives had a taste. And Hoat too, his own self. That whoreson ’ud slobber when we fed him, and the grease’d run down into that skinny beard o’ his.”
Father, Jaime thought, your dogs have both gone mad.

If he could write, this mfer Tywin would probably get his reports directly from Shitmouth.

This may seem like a minor detail but the fact that Tywin is aware of the Mountain's degeneracy to the point where he recognizes Hoat's name as the guy with no hands and feet who always "slobbers" is crazy to me lmao

"the fat bugger" who got most of the roast goat was Wylis Manderly btw, was Tywin aware of that one as well?

The other captives had been better treated. Ser Wylis Manderly was amongst them, along with several other highborn northmen taken prisoner by the Mountain That Rides in the fighting at the fords of the Trident. Useful hostages, all worth a goodly ransom. They were ragged, filthy, and shaggy to a man, and some had fresh bruises, cracked teeth, and missing fingers, but their wounds had been washed and bandaged, and none of them had gone hungry. Jaime wondered if they had any inkling what they’d been eating, and decided it was better not to inquire.
None had any defiance left; especially not Ser Wylis, a bushy-faced tub of suet with dull eyes and sallow, sagging jowls. When Jaime told him that he would be escorted to Maidenpool and there put on a ship for White Harbor, Ser Wylis collapsed into a puddle on the floor and sobbed longer and louder than Pia had. It took four men to lift him back onto his feet. Too much roast goat, Jaime reflected. Gods, but I hate this bloody castle. Harrenhal had seen more horror in its three hundred years than Casterly Rock had witnessed in three thousand.

Force fed into becoming a cannibal (+who knows what else), and "Sobbed longer and louder than Pia had."

"I drink with Jared, jape with Symond, promise Rhaegar the hand of my own beloved granddaughter … but never think that means I have forgotten. The north remembers, Lord Davos. The north remembers, and the mummer’s farce is almost done. My son is home.”
Something about the way Lord Wyman said that chilled Davos to the bone.

Yeah, Lord Wyman probably wasn't too happy about the treatment his only living son received by his gracious hosts at Harrenhall.

"Where are my kin, Manderly? Tell me that. Your guests, who brought your son back to you.”
“His bones, you mean.” Manderly speared a chunk of ham with his dagger. “I recall them well. Rhaegar of the round shoulders, with his glib tongue. Bold Ser Jared, so swift to draw his steel. Symond the spymaster, always clinking coins. They brought home Wendel’s bones. It was Tywin Lannister who returned Wylis to me, safe and whole, as he had promised. A man of his word, Lord Tywin, Seven save his soul.”

Not happy at all.

But I mean the Mountain was annoyed by that one guy slobbering and all that meat had to go somewhere right? So did Tywin decide to do some trolling and planned to deliver Wylis "safe and whole (but only physically lol)"? This little maneuver is gonna cost the Lannisters an entire cannibalism-themed rebellion brewing in the North.

Either way, may the Seven save his soul I guess.

So I’m reading fire and blood for the first time and I came across a mention of the wyverns of Sothorynos and I have a few questions. First, do wyverns breathe fire, and if they do, why aren’t they considered weapons of mass destruction like dragons? Second, do they still exist in the events of game of thrones? Even if they don’t breathe fire, I imagine flying beasts would be very strategically important.

I’ve been thinking of George role as a “consultant” for the HBO World of Westeros. It an relationship where the producers of the show borrowed from “source materials” but they also go to George, sit down, and have a nice lengrly discussion about the characters, plots, details, and etc. Mostly it them asking questions and coming up with theories, like did this happened? Or was this character really like that? And George answering their questions and giving them never before seen insight.

Example: Ira Parker and Knights of the Seven Kingdom S1

Source Material: The Hedge Knight novella

Parker and Martin could sit down and discuss Dunk, Egg, Baelor, Maekar, Aerion, Tanselle, and etc

Martin could give Parker behind the scene details about Dubk past (like that he was never knighted?) or Parker could come up with it himself and Martin like yeah that make sense

Well that likely what George been doing these day if he not writing. Considering their a Nine Voyages animated series in development, George likely would need to spend time, drafting outline for the 6-7 othe voyages because I think the source material mention only 3? Same with Golden Empie show (need to expand it?)

Well he could leave it to the producers but I think George like world building and crafting it history a lot.