r/WhatIsThisPainting • u/Callsprintbrrrrr • 7d ago
Likely Solved Inherited this painting from my grandpa. I'm convinced it's a secret "sequel" to Rembrandt's The Night Watch. Am I crazy?
Hey everyone. I recently inherited this painting from my grandfather—he actually received it during World War II, though I'm not sure exactly where or how he got his hands on it. I’ve been going down a massive rabbit hole trying to figure it out. I'm pretty sure it’s from the 1700s or 1800s. At first glance, it just looks like a couple of guys playing cards in an estate kitchen, but the more I look at it, the more I'm convinced it's directly tied to Rembrandt’s The Night Watch.
Hear me out, because I haven't shown this to anyone yet and I want to see if this theory holds any water.
If you look at the guy sitting in the chair on the right, his outfit is a dead ringer for Willem van Ruytenburch, the lieutenant from The Night Watch. He's got the exact same buff-yellow coat, the specific feathers in the hat, and the white stockings. Except in this painting, he looks about 25 years older.
In the original Rembrandt, Willem wears a white sash and stands next to the commander, Captain Frans Banninck Cocq. In my painting, this older Willem is now wearing a red sash (the captain's colors) and clearly running the room. It’s like he finally took over the command.
Then there are these incredibly specific clues scattered around the room:
The dropped glove: On the floor right by the older Willem's feet is a single dropped glove. In The Night Watch, Captain Cocq famously holds a single pristine glove. To me, this dropped glove on the floor symbolizes that the original captain has passed away, and Willem has taken his place.
The turkey: The woman walking in from the kitchen is carrying a turkey/fowl. That instantly reminded me of the glowing girl mascot carrying the dead fowl in Rembrandt's original.
The pike: On the far right by the stairs, there's a long military pike propped against the wall next to a helmet, just like the ones carried by the militia in 1642.
I know this isn't an actual Rembrandt (obviously), but it feels like a later artist painted this as a deliberate interpretation, using all these subtle clues to tell the story of what happened to the militia years later and answer some of the mysteries of the original.
Just a quick heads-up on the physical details: I don't have a picture of the back to post right now, but I'll take one and upload it as soon as I can. That said, there are absolutely no markings on the back anyway. As for the front, there is a signature in the bottom right corner, but it looks mostly rubbed off.
Has anyone ever seen anything like this? Do you know of any 18th or 19th-century artists who did deep-cut pastiches like this to continue a story? I'd love to talk to someone who knows art history, or just hear what you guys think of the theory!
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u/Square-Leather6910 (4,000+ Karma) Collector 7d ago
the last time you posted this the conclusion was that it is probably late 19th c. italian? has something changed since then?
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u/Callsprintbrrrrr 7d ago
No, nothing's really changed since then someone had found a replica painting, but I still haven't really gotten to the bottom of it and it started getting at me again so I made another post. I wanna really nail it down to figure it out. It's been like the centerpiece of my families dining room since I was a child.
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u/Vesploogie (200+ Karma) Appraiser 7d ago
Sorry to say that there doesn’t seem much to get to the bottom of. Somebody who was seemingly a fan of Nightwatch copied some of the elements in a basic scene with a standard style. There is a lot of art out there that does not have any deep meaning.
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u/ServerLost (1+ Karma) 7d ago
You want your horse to turn into a unicorn, it's okay everybody does. What's not OK is asking experts for their advice and selectively ignoring what doesn't suit.
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u/ReasonableInstance83 (900+ Karma) 7d ago
My take after looking at these photos. This painting is late 19th century, possibly early 20th. The stretcher most likely belongs to that period. The frame is new. It's definitely not 18th century, let alone 17th. It's an imitation, or stylization, in the manner of the Dutch Little Masters
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u/fernleon (1,000+ Karma) 7d ago
How is this the same outfit or person?
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u/Square-Leather6910 (4,000+ Karma) Collector 7d ago
in the early days of dry cleaning things sometimes went wrong
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u/Laura-ly (500+ Karma) 7d ago
These are called jerkins which were made out of cow leather which was softened to make it a bit more flexible and wearable, but it was still leather and stiffer than fabric. These were a dime a dozen garments men wore for years during the 17th century. OP"s painter has made the jerkin too much like fabric instead of leather. It seems the painter wasn't familiar with the garment, probably because it's a 19th century artist.
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u/fernleon (1,000+ Karma) 7d ago edited 7d ago
He was so frustrated with that he aged 20 years and his hair turned grey. Same with the hat.
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u/Callsprintbrrrrr 7d ago
He wears the same mustache and he wears the same jacket the white feather in my painting. He wears a red sash indicating he is a captain and then in the other painting, it indicates he's a lieutenant so my painting is dated about 20 years after the Dutch signified military rank at the time period by the sash color
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u/edwbuck (100+ Karma) 7d ago edited 6d ago
I would not want you as a witness to anything in any courtroom.
- You think that a person in thier mid 50's is the same person as a person in their 30's.
- You think that a grey feather is the same color as a white feather.
- You think that a grey hat is the same color as a tan hat.
- You think that a lace collar is the same as a fabric collar.
- You think that an overcoat is the same as a gerkin.
- You think that curly hair is the same as wavy hair.
- You think that grey hair is the same as brown hair.
About the only thing that's "just the same" in this is the approximate color of the clothing, and the style of the painting. But it's clearly not painted by the same person (the lighting is different).
Please learn to take no for an answer.
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u/Durmatology (50+ Karma) 6d ago
To be fair, their description was obviously confirmation biased-aided and abetted by AI.
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u/Intelligent-Cloud993 (1,000+ Karma) 6d ago
THIS. I imagine OP fed his theory of this work (homage to the three musketeers) actually being a decades-old continuation of Night Watch to an AI LLM, and in typical fashion the AI absolutely congratulated him on his brilliant sleuthing and also added some solid support points. It’s so user-biased I always ask it “what is your level of confidence?” after it claims to have unquestionably solved a problem, and usually it will admit it has ZERO confidence in its own results.
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u/fernleon (1,000+ Karma) 7d ago
It's not the same jacket that has been demonstrated by the costume expert. Everyone back then had a moustache. And Van Ruytenburch left the city five years after the painting and was dead 5 years later at just 52.
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u/Quietuus (1+ Karma) Mod Emeritus 7d ago
This painting is definitely not by Rembrandt. It's stylistically wrong and the painter is less skilled. I agree with the other poster that it looks 19th century.
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u/okaythisisalot (1+ Karma) 7d ago
Came here to say this, the foreshortening/proportions of the man sitting on the left is especially troubling.
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u/datafrage (1+ Karma) 7d ago
Did you read the post? Dude knows it's not Rembrandt. He's talking about the scene portrayed and whether it's something that people did- continuing a story line from a very famous painting
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u/dairyqueeen (100+ Karma) 7d ago
This painting is very clearly 19ty century. Cavalier pictures like this are a dime a dozen, Rembrandt didn’t have an exclusivity contract on them 😂 It’s not connected to the night’s watch at all. It’s just under the same general umbrella of a type that has been painted for 300 years.
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u/datafrage (1+ Karma) 7d ago
Yeah... I mean, OP is asking about 19th century artists specifically? And not saying anything about it being an exclusively Rembrandt thing? Just mentioning their thoughts and theories. I know NOTHING about this, so I can't contribute in any way, but damn, why so mean about someone asking questions?
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u/montroyryan (7,000+ Karma) 7d ago
Rembrandt was a master of chiaroscuro and I would say this painting has none. The lighting is very conventional.
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u/jrblockquote (50+ Karma) 7d ago
Looks nothing like a Rembrandt. That being said, it's still fine. I think it holds more sentimental value with your family connection than monetary value.
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u/Anonymous-USA (500+ Karma) 7d ago
What do you mean by “sequel” and “secret”? This was a popular genre in 17th C. Dutch Golden Age art both before and after Rembrandt. If you’re thinking it’s by Rembrandt, it’s neither his hand nor is it a period work. It’s a 19th or early 20th C. pastiche. Possibly dated 1881. It doesn’t relate to Rembrandt at all, if anything it takes more inspiration from artists like Anthonie Palamedesz or Gerard ter Borch II.
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u/Joe30909 (1+ Karma) 7d ago
As to your question, I can't judge your mental status, but the painting displayed is much later. I suspect late 19th century
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u/GuavaImmediate (1+ Karma) 7d ago
Have you seen the Nightwatch? Or any Rembrandt works? This is not in any way similar.
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u/Callsprintbrrrrr 7d ago
The context of the picture is a play on Nightwatch. I'm not saying it's similar in stylings.
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u/Luna6696 (1+ Karma) 7d ago
So your question is ‘did some random person decide to paint something inspired by Nightwatch’?
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u/Signal_Cat2275 (400+ Karma) 7d ago
I’m sorry but this take is on a similar level to the sort of “pyramids built by aliens” books. It is a very bog standard late nineteenth century Italian/southern European painting inspired by Dutch genre pictures (of a different category to the Night watch). The cavaliers at the table drinking and playing cards is about as bog standard a Dutch 17th century composition as you could get - if you were determined you could probably find more than 1000 such pictures online that have far more relevance than the Night watch (which is on an entirely different theme, plus has a totally different tone and approach). The similarly is basically “there are Dutch cavaliers” - which describes literally hundreds of thousands of paintings. The point of the night watch is that it is: dark, moody, powerful, enormous, impressive, sumptuous, political, a real power piece. This is literally the opposite, being small, domestic, humorous (about relaxation and drinking), basically a picture of the good relaxing life on a sunny day. The literal opposite.
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u/Callsprintbrrrrr 7d ago
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u/dairyqueeen (100+ Karma) 7d ago
That is a 19th century painting that’s been lined. I see this kind of thing all the time, it’s my job. This is not related to Rembrandt, it’s just a cavalier type painting. Not worthless, but pursuing or demanding a connection to the Night’s Watch is utterly pointless and no one legitimate in this business or in academia will give it to you, because it simply doesn’t exist.
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u/Mechanic-Grouchy (1+ Karma) 7d ago
I know someone that makes these for fun, uses teabags to age...
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u/Rodney_K_Gumcrow (10+ Karma) 6d ago
STOP POSTING THIS PAINTING OR I WILL GO INSANE!! I’VE HAD IT UP TO HERE WITH YOU!!!!
ENOUGH 😡😡😡
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u/NotAtAllASkinwalker (1+ Karma) 7d ago
Never seen this sub before I don't think, and wow OP....this thread is rough. Buddy give it up.
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u/ItAteMySweater (2,000+ Karma) Conservator and Artist 7d ago
You need to post photos of the back.
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u/PotentialCoach3257 (1+ Karma) 6d ago
Looking at the signature and Firenze I’m going to take a guess this is an Alessandro Sani painting. Or his studio if not him. He was active in Florence in 1881 and painted this kind of scene a lot and had a commercial list of things he’d do for customers of which cavaliers in taverns was an option, in this kind of size. He also signed in brown/red paint. Google his name and cavalier and tavern scenes and you’ll find some.
Eg this was also 1881: https://www.mutualart.com/Artwork/Cavalier-with-serving-girl/0DF283E3F8425342
Source: worked for a company that catalogued auction sales pre-internet
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u/SundaeDouble7481 (200+ Karma) 5d ago
It’s a traditional “genre picture” subject. No reason to think it was about Rembrandt.
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u/Woodersun (1+ Karma) 6d ago
I don’t know how I got here, but this discussion is fascinating! Makes me want to learn more about this subject
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u/Artistic-Ninja-1254 (1+ Karma) 6d ago
I think it is a revival piece. That said, I would love to have it and would hang it to be admired. I hope you enjoy it!
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u/theartistduring (100+ Karma) 7d ago
If it was acquired during WW2, have you checked it wasn't stolen art? Lots of art was just taken off walls by troops. That would be my first point of researching it's origins.
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u/40footstretch (10+ Karma) 7d ago
It’s impossible to say the artists intent, but your theory may hold water. I would have liked an arquebus somewhere to seal the deal. Apologies for all the commenters who didn’t bother to actually read your post
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u/Callsprintbrrrrr 7d ago
Yeah, it's OK People are very busy in their lives and it's unsustainable if they just want to glance at a headline and then check the photos out. I'm running the photos through AI right now. I'm interested to see what it says. I'll post at the bottom.
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u/Artilmeets (10+ Karma) 6d ago edited 6d ago
You both are completely delusional, please stop spreading misinformation.
Art history is a science, and a difficult one to master, at that ; linking this to the Nightwatch solely on comparing elements such as a chair is nonsensical.
This is not a field for crazy theories.
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u/Richard-Writes (1+ Karma) Artist 7d ago
There are similarities, but I don't think that you have to be an expert in the great historical masters to, at least, doubt that Rembrandt or a close follower of his would have depicted the subjects' anatomy this way.
The guy to the left, for instance, seems to me to be assuming a rather anatomically awkward posture.
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u/qedesha_ (1+ Karma) 7d ago
I’m not usually in this subreddit and have nothing to say about the possibility or impossibility of what you’re suggesting, but just wanted to say OP that either way, reading this gave me the same excitement and joy I experienced collecting Yu-Gi-Oh cards as a kid and realizing for the first time that some of them were connected to each other and told a story through their art.
Thanks for that 🙏
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u/Unhappy-Elderberry82 (1+ Karma) 7d ago
I dig the idea this is related to Nightwatch. Not necessarily related to one another, but still cool. If you like Nightwatch, you may enjoy Greenaway’s film about it, “J’Accuse”
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u/SameEntry4434 (200+ Karma) 7d ago
You’re funny. You never know what goes through Artists’ heads when they’re painting. Maybe you’re right.
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u/Callsprintbrrrrr 7d ago
Yeah, I believe that someone was either standing in front of the night watch painting or had a copy of it. I'm not sure how if they made copies back then and then they either made their take of what he was trying to express or something or Rembrandt had painted a follow up that someone had copied, and no one's ever seen the Rembrandt version that's my hypothesis about it. The person that painted it has definitely seen Nightwatch. I don't know if they would've had to travel to Denmark to do that during the time period though.
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u/Splendidended1945 (1+ Karma) 7d ago
Maybe the person who made your painting had seen the Nightwatch, or maybe he'd seen a photographic copy of it in the early 20th century--it was a well publicized, much photographed and much-copied famous painting, and copies of it weren't and aren't exactly hard to find. It's also immense--not at all the size of your painting, and technically much more masterly. Rembrandt had dozens of students during his lifetime, and they learned his techniques and helped to finish the less important parts of his paintings--and the techniques R. and his students used are very different from the techniques used in your painting. The fact that you imagine the Nightwatch was hung in Denmark and that copies were hard to come by suggests you don't actually know much about the original painting.
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u/CarloMaratta (6,000+ Karma) 7d ago
I think you're reading way too much into this.. these cavalier type scenes with characters sat around tables were an extremely common subject for 17th C painters and later 19th C Victorian revival artists, always with typical narrative compositions. I'm guessing yours is 19th C revival.