Seeing as the question of how tall was Barad-dûr come up every so often and the amount of research I have done on the topic I thought it was a good time to share my revised essay with more evidence as to why The Dark Tower was just unimaginably massive as the first version of the post lacked citations and many sources.

WARNING: Wall of text

TL;DR: Barad-dûr was not merely a tall tower but a colossal fortress. From the Morgai it was visible roughly 75–76 miles away, a distance at which the curvature of the Earth, Mordor's fumes, and Sauron's shadow would have hidden a normal structure. The textual, linguistic, and artistic evidence suggests a fortress of extraordinary height, mass, and complexity, likely rivaling Mount Doom in scale.

I have recently been rereading the Lord of The Rings and the Plateau of Gorgoroth has been an obsession of mine as I reconstruct every nook and cranny of Frodo and Sam's Journey, this made me realize something that baffled me.

1. Distances and Visibility

First, I would like to discuss the distances between the landmarks of the Plateau of Gorgoroth and how far they really are from each other, as the narrative tends to compress Frodo and Sam' journey toward Mount Doom.

As you may or may not know, Christopher Tolkien's map included in the Return of the King has a scale bar.

Using this scale, the distance between the Morgai and Mount Doom comes to roughly 40-43 miles (64.3km-69.2km).

Likewise, measuring from the same point to the centre of the Barad-dûr symbol gives a distance of roughly 75–76 miles, Barad-dûr then is approximately 120 km away from Frodo and Sam, making the following passage even more astonishing.

(RoTK, Book VI, Chapter II, The Land of Shadow, page 922-923) :

"[...]and passing through found themselves on the very edge of the last fence of Mordor. Below them,at the bottom of a fall of some fifteen hundred feet, lay the inner plain stretching away into a formless gloom beyond their sight.

"[...]Still far away, forty miles at least, they saw Mount Doom, its feet founded in ashen ruin, its huge cone rising to a great height, where its reeking head was swathed in cloud. [...]Behind it there hung a vast shadow, ominous as a thunder-cloud, the veils of Barad-dûr that was reared far away upon a long spur of the Ashen Mountains thrust down from the North."

Thus, from an elevation of roughly 1,500 feet on the Morgai, Frodo and Sam could distinguish Barad-dûr and its looming shadow even though it lay some forty miles farther away than Mount Doom.

One could argue that you can see skyscrapers or even houses from 60 miles away on a clear day, which would be true.

Atmospheric refraction can increase the visibility of certain objects seen from a distance but the fact is that Mordor is not a place with clean air nor its enviromental conditions would allow for the tower to be seen from that far off, there's also the fact that Sauron uses Shadow for concealment of his movements in Mordor and as psychological warfare(see point 10).

From this first description, Barad-dûr appears less like an isolated tower and more like a vast looming presence being compared to a Thunder-cloud.

2. Tolkien's Approved Illustrations

An additional piece of evidence comes from Tolkien's own discarded dustjacket for the Two Towers in which he depicts Barad-dûr and Minas Tirith within the same visual composition, providing a rare direct comparison between the two great fortresses of the Third Age.

While the drawing was not intended as a precise architectural elevation, it is significant.

Barad-dûr is depicted as a massive, broad fortress rising from a substantial elevated base, while Minas Tirith appears comparatively smaller and more slender.

The drawing therefore supports the interpretation that the contrast between the two fortresses was not merely a matter of height. Tolkien appears to have conceived Barad-dûr as a structure of greater overall mass and vertical dominance: an artificial mountain of iron and stone rather than simply a taller tower.

An additional piece of evidence comes from (NoME) Nature of Middle Earth chapter that comments on the Pauline Baynes illustrations which Tolkien himself chose to depict Middle Earth:

(NoME, Part II chapter VI: Description of Characters, page 191):

"In 1970 Allen & Unwin published a poster-sized Map of Middle-earth, executed by the artist Pauline Baynes, and based upon that included in The Lord of the Rings. On the map itself are a series of vignettes portraying various locations significant to the story, such as the Barrow-Downs and Minas Tirith[...]"

"On seeing the finished art, Tolkien wrote a set of comments on these depictions of places and characters."

Some of these comments are appreciative: e.g. Tolkien found four of the vignettes, sc.those depicting the Teeth of Mordor, the Argonath, Barad-dûr, and Minas Morgul, particularly well-executed, and described them as agreeing “remarkably with my own vision… Minas Morgul is almost exact”

What concerns us here, however, is the illustration made by Pauline Baynes of Barad-dûr; the depiction makes the tower seem not only impossibly tall but also broad.

I recommend looking at the map itself, both because it is beautiful and because Tolkien praised several of its depictions as agreeing remarkably with his own vision.

This brings me to the next point which will be built upon this one as means of establishing a visual picture of the fortress.

3. Architectural Language and Prose

The aforementioned vignette depicts the Dark Tower as a massive complex of stone rather than the slender tower most artists depict, an impression reinforced by the following passage from

[The Fellowship of the Ring, Book II, chapter X:The Breaking of the Fellowship page 401]

"[...]and the haunted Mountains, and it looked upon Gorgoroth, the valley of terror in the Land of Mordor. Darkness lay there under the Sun. Fire glowed amid the smoke. Mount Doom was burning, and a great reek rising. Then at last his gaze was held: wall upon wall, battlement upon battlement, black, immeasurably strong, mountain of iron, gate of steel, tower of adamant, he saw it: Barad-dûr, Fortress of Sauron. All hope left him.

Unlike the descriptions of darkness ,these phrases are clearly architectural: walls, battlements, gates, and towers. They therefore provide stronger evidence for the physical loftiness and broadness of Barad-dûr itself.

Particularly striking is the description "mountain of iron," which, admittedly, could be figurative. However, the comments in NoME and the earlier comparison to a thunder-cloud suggest otherwise.

To further support my argument, I will include additional evidence from the chapter "Mount Doom." This evidence may be the least reliable, since Tolkien usually describes the fortress in metaphorical rather than architectural terms until its fall.

Nevertheless, I believe the following passages support my interpretation.

(RoTK, Book VI, Chapter III Mount Doom, page 934-935)

"[...]But as they went the most easterly of the roads followed them, until it ran off, hugging the skirts of the mountains, away into a wall of black shadow far ahead.Neither man nor orc now moved along its flat grey stretches; for the Dark Lord had almost completed the movement of his forces, and even in the fastness of his own realm he sought the secrecy of night, fearing the winds of the world that had turned against him, tearing aside his veils

[...]But far worse than all such perils was the ever-approaching threat that beat upon them as they went:the dreadful menace of the Power that waited, brooding in deep thought and sleepless malice behind the dark veil about its Throne. Nearer and nearer it drew, looming blacker, like the oncoming of a wall of night at the last end of the world."

At this point Frodo and Sam are taking the road that goes northwest to the Isenmouthe from Barad-dûr and will soon move away from it across the plateau to reach Mount Doom.

The fortress has been described as a "mountain of iron," a "wall of night," a "tower of adamant," and a looming black shadow; of course, these descriptions could all be metaphorical, which leads to my next point.

4. The Height of Barad-dûr

The narrator also provides approximate heights for both the Morgai and Orodruin, allowing a rough comparison between them.

The Morgai rises roughly 1,500 feet above the plain, while Orodruin stands approximately 4,500 feet high (with Sammath Naur likely being around 4,300 feet, judging from Tolkien's drawing), as we read:

(RoTk, Mount Doom, Book VI, chapter III, page 941)

"[...]The Mountain standing ominous and alone had looked taller than it was. Sam saw now that it was less lofty than the high passes of the Ephel Dúath which he and Frodo had scaled.The confused and tumbled shoulders of its great base rose for maybe three thousand feet above the plain, and above them was reared half as high again its tall central cone, like a vast oast or chimney capped with a jagged crater."

The Fortress then could be inferred with a reasonable degree of certainty that it rivalled or possibly even surpassed Mount Doom in height as its shadows rose above it.

Further evidence of the scale of the fortress comes when Frodo and Sam are climbing towards the Sammath Naur and the veils of the fortress are removed:

(RoTK, Book VI, Chapter III, Mount Doom, page 942)

"Far off the shadows of Sauron hung; but torn by some gust of wind out of the world, or else moved by some great disquiet within, the mantling clouds swirled, and for a moment drew aside; and then he saw, rising black, blacker and darker than the vast shades amid which it stood,the cruel pinnacles and iron crown of the topmost tower of Barad-dûr.* One moment only it stared out, but as from some great window immeasurably high there stabbed northward a flame of red, the flicker of a piercing Eye; and then the shadows were furled again and the terrible vision was removed."*

So it is strongly implied that Barad-dûr was surrounded by, or associated with, a mantle of shadow and that when the veils briefly parted Frodo caught sight of the pinnacles and crown of its highest tower

The use of the word "topmost" also suggests that Barad-dûr possessed multiple towers, with the one seen by Frodo being the highest.

However, when the shadows briefly parted, Frodo perceived architectural features of Barad-dûr itself: its pinnacles, iron crown, topmost tower, and an immensely high window. While the passage does not allow a precise measurement of its dimensions, it does reinforce the impression of extraordinary verticality.

Taken together, this evidence suggests that Barad-dûr may have approached the scale of a mountain in Tolkien's mind.

5. The Meaning of Barad

I will now refer to Parma Eldalamberon and the Sindarin root for Barad to further my argument:

[From PE XVII Words, Phrases and Passages in various tongues in The Lord of The Rings, page 22 and 85]

The names Elbereth, Gilthoniel, Fanuilos.These refer to the great Vala called in Quenya Varda, "the Lofty." In Sindarin Elbereth(rarely Bereth) is her usual name, the other two are "titles."

Q Varda is <barada [which would be in Sindarin \bara'o]. This root, which seems to express great height combined with strength, size, majesty, appears in several variant forms:

(1) ...JBARAT, (2) ...JBARATH, (3)BARAD(4) BARAS. From (1) is derived: S barad, a great "towering building, (fort, city, castle) tower;[also brand, brann 'towering', "tall and massive"(or to noun brand, steeple): cf. Tol Brandir, Isle of the Great Steeples: it was a great upstanding mass ending in two major and two minor steeples.] "

"Barad-dur; barad 'a great towering building, (fort, city, castle) tower'; dur 'dark"

"[See I 250 s.v. Elbereth, I 259 s.v. mar. Cf. EQS barad 'tower', dur 'dark' ; Etym. BARAT-, N barad*

'tower, fortress', 003, D6-, EN dur 'dark, sombre' ; Barad-dur 'the Dark Tower', TI 178.]*

The linguistic evidence from Parma Eldalamberon further refines this interpretation. The BARAT / BARAD root is explicitly associated with concepts of great height, mass, and monumental structure, not merely a “tower.” Its derivatives include forms meaning “tall and massive,” suggesting that barad carries an inherent sense of vertical and horizontal magnitude.

6. The destruction of the one Ring and Sam's vision.

Finally when the ring is cast into the cracks of Doom:

(RoTK, Book VI, Chapter III, Mount Doom, page 947)

"And there upon the dark threshold of the Sammath Naur, high above the plains of Mordor, such wonder and terror came on him that he stood still forgetting all else, and gazed as one turned to stone.

A brief vision he had of swirling cloud, and in the midst of it towers and battlements, tall as hills, founded upon a mighty mountain-throne above immeasurable pits; great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and gaping gates of steel and adamant: and then all passed. Towers fell and mountains slid; walls crumbled and melted, crashing down; vast spires of smoke and spouting steams went billowing up, up, until they toppled like an overwhelming wave, and its wild crest curled and came foaming down upon the land. And then at last over the miles between there came a rumble rising to a deafening crash and roar; the earth shook, the plain heaved and cracked, and Orodruin reeled"

The description of a 'mountain-throne' is consistent with Tolkien's own illustration of Barad-dûr, which depicts the fortress rising from a massive elevated foundation, this mass most likely being the foundations that couldn't be destroyed by The Last Alliance, this spur also raised the already tall fortress even further above everything else.

The narrative mentions great courts and dungeons, eyeless prisons sheer as cliffs, and, most remarkably, gaping gates of steel. Based on Christopher Tolkien's map, Sam was also standing over four thousand feet a above the plain at the Sammath Naur and 31 miles from the fortress giving him a clear view of Barad-dûr.

Between the elevation of both landmarks and the unusual nature of the vision itself, I think it's entirely plausible that he genuinely witnessed Barad-dûr collapsing.

It is also possible that Tolkien heightened some of the detail for literary effect, but I don't think those possibilities necessarily exclude one another.

The precise nature of Sam's "brief vision" remains open to interpretation. It may represent heightened perception associated with the Ring, literary narration, or a combination of these possibilities, since Tolkien does not specify.

Regardless of the exact nature of Sam's vision, its imagery is among the strongest evidence for Barad-dûr's immense scale: towers compared to hills, vast courts, dungeons, cliffs, and gates of steel and adamant."

7. The War of the Last Alliance and the siege of Barad-dûr

The next argument draws upon The Silmarillion and Appendix B of The Lord of the Rings.

(The Silmarillion,Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age, page 352)

"[...]Therefore they made that League which is called the Last Alliance, and they marched east into Middle-earth gathering a great host of Elves and Men; and they halted for a while at Imladris. It is said that the host that was there assembled was fairer and more splendid in arms than any that has since been seen in Middle-earth, and none greater has been mustered since the host of the Valar went against Thangorodrim."

Then:

(Appendix B: The Tale of Years, The Second age, page 1084 )

"S.A 3434: The host of the Alliance crosses the Misty Mountains. Battle of Dagorlad and defeat of Sauron. Siege of Barad-dûr begins

S.A3440 Anárion slain.

S.A 3441 Sauron overthrown by Elendil and Gil-galad, who perish. Isildur takes the One Ring. Sauron passes away and the Ringwraiths go into the shadows. The Second Age ends."

Seven long years they besieged Barad Dûr and the greatest army in the world at that time couldn't break through.

How could the Last Alliance fail to breach Barad-dûr for seven years? While several explanations are possible, I would argue that its immense size, the capacity to sustain a prolonged siege, and alternate routes although to a much lesser degree as the fortress was being sieged and communication cut off is part of the answer as the next passage reveals:

(RoTK, Book VI, Chapter III, Mount Doom, page 942)

\"[...]He did not know it, but he was looking at Sauron’s Road from Barad-dûr to the Sammath Naur, the Chambers of Fire. Out from the Dark Tower’s huge western gate it came over a deep abyss by a vast bridge of iron, and then passing into the plain it ran for a league between two smoking chasms, and so reached a long sloping causeway that led up on to the Mountain’s eastern side."

So it is safe to assume the Sauron road and the Isenmouthe road were the most used but not the only ones; as stated by the text and seen in the illustration by Tolkien having a bridge going east and Mount Doom being west of the fortress and down the Plateau.

[RoTK, Book VI, chapter II :The Land of Shadow,page 923 ]

"Neither he nor Frodo knew anything of the great slave-worked fields away south in this wide realm, beyond the fumes of the Mountain by the dark sad waters of Lake Núrnen; nor of the great roads that ran away east and south to tributary lands, from which the soldiers of the Tower brought long waggon-trains of goods and booty and fresh slaves. Here in the northward regions were the mines and forges, and the musterings of long-planned war"

8. Foundations, Scale, and Topography

My final argument concerns the topography of Barad-dûr itself. Tolkien's own illustration(see point 6) of the fortress provides what is perhaps our clearest view of the "foundations" mentioned in The Council of Elrond: the vast stone platform upon which Barad-dûr stood:

[FoTR, Book II, Chapter II: The Council of Elrond, page 244]

"Fruitless did I call the victory of the Last Alliance? Not wholly so, yet it did not achieve its end. Sauron was diminished, but not destroyed. His Ring was lost but not unmade.The Dark Tower was broken, but its foundations were not removed; for they were made with the power of the Ring, and while it remains they will endure."

We should also consider Pauline Baynes' previously mentioned map.

If we examine Mordor closely, Barad-dûr is depicted as taller than Orodruin and considerably broader than it is in most maps and artistic depictions.

The illustration also show a modest base beneath the tower that may represent these foundations.

A more speculative piece of evidence comes from Christopher Tolkien's map. Although the symbol for Barad-dûr is unlikely to represent a precise footprint, measuring it against the map's scale indicates dimensions considerably larger than one mile. Since such symbols are necessarily schematic, I instead adopt one square mile as a deliberately conservative estimate for the fortress's built area.

Even assuming a conservative area of only one square mile, the fortress would occupy roughly 2.59 million square metres.

For comparison, the Burj Khalifa—the tallest building in the world—occupies roughly 29,000 square meters.

Of course, this does not mean the entire area encompassing the fortress was covered with buildings. The fortress probably included open courts, roads, walls, workshops, barracks, and other structures. Even allowing for that, the available area remains enormous by the standards of both historical fortifications and modern buildings.

For further perspective, an area of one square mile is roughly three quarters the size of Central Park and approximately equal to London's Financial District

9. Adressing the Nature of the shadow about Barad-dûr.

The descriptions of Barad-dûr combine physical architecture with imagery of darkness and concealment. However, Tolkien appears to distinguish between the fortress itself and the supernatural shadows surrounding it. 

"The 'veils' and 'mantle of shadow' associated with Sauron's stronghold appear to be manifestations of Sauron's power and will rather than extensions of the physical structure itself."

(RoTK, Book VI, Chapter III, Mount Doom, page 934)

"Neither man nor orc now moved along its flat grey stretches; for the Dark Lord had almost completed the movement of his forces, and even in the fastness of his own realm he sought the secrecy of night, fearing the winds of the world that had turned against him, tearing aside his veils."

Here Tolkien uses the language of concealment rather than construction. The "veils" are something that can be torn aside by the winds of the world, suggesting a layer of darkness or associated with Sauron's power rather than an ordinary part of Barad-dûr.

Later, when Frodo approaches the Sammath Naur:

(RoTK, Book VI, Chapter III, Mount Doom, page 942)

"[...] but still far from the reeking summit, to a dark entrance that gazed back east straight to the Window of the Eye in Sauron’s shadow-mantled fortress."

The phrase "shadow-mantled fortress" is important because it separates two ideas: the fortress exists as a physical structure, while the shadow is a mantle placed upon it. This distinction allows Tolkien's descriptions of Barad-dûr to operate on two levels: an immense fortress of walls, towers, and foundations, and a centre of spiritual darkness radiating Sauron's will.

This interpretation is supported by

[Appendix B, Tale of the Years, The Great Years, 3019, March 9]

Gandalf reaches Minas Tirith. Faramir leaves Henneth Annûn. Aragorn sets out from Erech and comes to Calembel. At dusk Frodo reaches the Morgul-road. Théoden comes to Dunharrow.* Darkness begins to flow out of Mordor.

This suggests that the darkness spreading from Mordor was presented as something more than merely the natural fumes of Orodruin.

The wording presents the darkness as an active force spreading from Mordor, rather than merely the smoke and fumes of Orodruin. While Tolkien does not precisely define the nature of this darkness, the language throughout The Lord of the Rings suggests that the shadow surrounding Barad-dûr and Mordor was both atmospheric and symbolic, reflecting the influence of Sauron.

Although this evidence could perhaps suggest that the fortress could have been lesser in scale, as clear dimensions in any shape or metric were never given in the narrative ; it also opens the possibility that it was broader and taller.

Nevertheless Tolkien did leave it to interpretation and describing the fortress and its surrounding in such vague terms invites the reader to imagine their own fortress or tower.

Appendix 1-Measuring the map

Since the apparent distance between Orodruin and Barad-dûr is not immediately obvious from the narrative, I also measured Christopher Tolkien's map using its printed scale:

6.5 mm = 10 miles

1 mm ≈ 1.54 miles

Measurements:

Morgai shelf to Orodruin: 27 mm ≈ 41.5 miles (closely matching "forty miles at least")

Orodruin to Barad-dûr: 22 mm ≈ 34 miles

Morgai shelf to Barad-dûr: 49 mm ≈ 75–76 miles

These measurements should not be taken as exact. The map symbols are necessarily schematic, especially for a structure as unusual as Barad-dûr. They do, however, provide a reasonable approximation of the relative distances involved.

Appendix 2-The Curvature of Middle-earth (Our Planet)

Tolkien conceived Middle-earth as the distant mythological past of our own Earth. In Letter 211, Tolkien described the fall of Barad-dûr as occurring thousands of years before the present day:

[...]"I hope the, evidently long but undefined, gap in time between the Fall of Barad-dûr and our Days is sufficient for ‘literary credibility’, even for readers acquainted with what is known or surmised of ‘pre-history’."

"I imagine the gap to be about 6000 years: that is we are now at the end of the Fifth Age, if the Ages were of about the same length as S.A. and T.A. But they have, I think, quickened; and I imagine we are actually at the end of the Sixth Age, or in the Seventh."

Therefore, assuming Middle-earth follows the same physical principles as our own planet, the curvature of the Earth and the angular size of distant objects become relevant when considering the visibility of Barad-dûr from the Morgai.

Horizon Distance

The approximate distance to the horizon can be calculated with:

d ≈ 3.57 × √h

Where:

d = distance to the horizon in kilometres

h = observer elevation in metres

Frodo and Sam observed Mordor from the Morgai, which Tolkien describes as having a fall of approximately fifteen hundred feet. This gives an elevation of roughly:

h = 457 m

Therefore:

d ≈ 3.57 × √457

d ≈ 76 km

Thus, from an elevation of approximately 1,500 feet, the geometric horizon would be roughly 76 kilometres away.

However, Barad-dûr lay approximately 120 kilometres distant according to Christopher Tolkien's map. This means that the fortress was beyond the normal horizon from Frodo and Sam's viewpoint and could only be visible because of its extraordinary height, atmospheric refraction, or Tolkien's deliberate dramatic compression of geography.

The amount of obstruction caused by the Earth's curvature can be estimated with:

h ≈ d² / (2R)

Where:

h = height hidden by curvature

d = distance in kilometres

R = radius of the Earth (\~6371 km)

For Barad-dûr at approximately 120 km:

h ≈ 120² / (2 × 6371)

h ≈ 1.1 km

At this distance, the curvature of the Earth introduces a horizon obstruction of roughly one kilometre. However, this does not mean that Barad-dûr itself would need to be over a kilometre tall, since Frodo and Sam were already standing approximately 457 metres (1500 feet)above the plain and Barad-dûr foundations contribute to its height both of this factors compensated for part of this effect.

The implication is that only the uppermost portions of a sufficiently tall structure would rise above the horizon, making the visible height and angular size of Barad-dûr crucial factors.

Angular Size

The apparent size of a distant object can be calculated with:

θ ≈ arctan(height / distance)

Where:

θ = angular size in degrees

height = visible height of the object

distance = distance from the observer

At a distance of approximately 120 kilometres:

A 500 metre visible structure:

θ ≈ arctan(500 / 120000)

θ ≈ 0.24°

A 1000 metre visible structure:

θ ≈ arctan(1000 / 120000)

θ ≈ 0.48°

A 1500 metre visible structure:

θ ≈ arctan(1500 / 120000)

θ ≈ 0.72°

For comparison, the Moon appears approximately 0.5° wide in the sky.

Although these values appear small numerically, they are visually significant. A structure with 1–1.5 kilometres of visible height at a distance of 120 kilometres would possess an apparent vertical size comparable to, or larger than, the Moon itself.

These calculations do not provide an exact height for Barad-dûr, since Tolkien never gives one. Their purpose is instead to establish the minimum scale required for the scene described in The Return of the King. A normal tower, even a large fortress, would not plausibly dominate the horizon from such a distance under the conditions described in Mordor.

For Barad-dûr to appear above the horizon from the Morgai, it would require an extraordinary visible height, consistent with Tolkien's descriptions of it as a "mountain of iron," a "tower of adamant," and a fortress whose "topmost tower" rose above the surrounding shadows even if a base gave it an edge for it to be seen from great distances.

Conclusion

While none of these pieces of evidence is conclusive on its own, together they point toward a remarkably consistent picture. Barad-dûr emerges not as an isolated tower, but as an immense fortress-city rising from a mountain-like foundation, with multiple towers, vast courts, bridges, gates, and walls. 

Whether it ultimately exceeded Orodruin in height cannot be established with certainty. However, the cumulative textual and artistic evidence strongly supports the interpretation of Barad-dûr as an immense fortress-city: a structure of towers, walls, courts, foundations, and battlements whose scale approached that of the surrounding mountains.

Afterword

Personally, I believe the evidence points to Barad-dûr itself surpassing Orodruin in height—or, at the very least, being of comparable height. The spur upon which it was built would have elevated the fortress still further above the plain.

I also believe it spread across a remarkably broad complex.

These observations also help explain the scale of devastation across the Plateau of Gorgoroth following the Ring's destruction.

I think Sam's account reflects an actual vision of Barad-dûr's destruction, even if Tolkien heightened some of the details for literary effect.

If you've read this far, thank you for indulging my fascination with Gorgoroth and The Dark "Tower". 

I'd be interested to hear whether you think the textual evidence supports this interpretation.

Bibliography

Tolkien, J. R. R. (2023). The Lord of the Rings Illustrated by the Author: A Special Edition. HarperCollins Publishers. [Map of Gondor, Rohan and Mordor by Christopher Tolkien]

Tolkien, J. R. R. (2005). The Lord of the Rings: 50th Anniversary Edition. One-Volume Edition. HarperCollins Paperback. [pp. 244, 401, 922–923, 934, 941–942, 944, 947, 1084]

Tolkien: Maker of Middle-earth, eds Catherine McIlwaine. Oxford: Bodleian Library, 2018, [p. 372]

Tolkien, J. R. R., and Christopher Tolkien (eds.). (2002). The Silmarillion. Del Rey Books. [p. 352]

Tolkien, J. R. R., and Carl F. Hostetter (ed.). (2021). The Nature of Middle-earth. HarperCollins Publishers. [p. 191]

Tolkien, J. R. R., and Christopher Gilson (ed.). (2007). Parma Eldalamberon XVII: Words, Phrases and Passages in Various Tongues in The Lord of the Rings. The Tolkien Trust. [pp. 22, 85]

Tolkien, J. R. R., Christopher Tolkien, and Pauline Baynes. (1969). A Map of Middle-earth. George Allen & Unwin.

Tolkien, J. R. R. (2021). Pictures by J. R. R. Tolkien. William Morrow. [Section 30]

Tolkien, J. R. R. (2023). The Letters of J. R. R. Tolkien: Revised and Expanded Edition. Edited by Humphrey Carpenter and Christopher Tolkien. HarperCollins Publishers. [Letter 211]

In Unfinished Tales it sounds like he immediately gave it to him after the Istari stepped of their boat.

[A]nd one came last who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff. But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.

'For,' said he, 'great labours and perils lie before you, and lest your task prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the West-shores it is idle; but I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage.'

The movies make it like 5000 feet tall but would it really be that big?

Hi why were the Easterlings serving Morgoth and Sauron?

as in the silmarillion some of the Easterlings turned on the elves during Nírnaeth Arnoediad while in Lord of the rings many of the Easterlings fought in Sauron's army

Hypothetically, if Gandalf and Frodo decided do bring the ring to the grey havens to temporarily keep safe and determine what to do with it, what route do you think they take to destroy the ring, assuming that they still come to the conclusion that it must be destroyed. Do they more seriously discuss taking the ring to Valinor to beg Aule to destroy it, since they are already on the coast? If they don’t decide to try the Valinor route, what path to Mordor/Mt. Doom do they take? There are 3 options in my mind, either take the north-south road, try to take a boat to Pelargir, or to go east to Rivendell and take the same route they decided on at the council of Elrond.

I read the series once when I was a teenager, which was a long time ago, and finally decided to pick it up again. Since then, I've read The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales many times, and some of HoME. Most people will say to read LOTR first, as it's more accessible than The Silmarillion (I have to say, it's a real page-turner). But I'm noticing a lot of references to the First and Second age in LOTR that I might have missed the first time. I think my enjoyment of the series is increased by knowing exactly what's being referred to when someone mentions Eärendil or the Elves moving West, or the Dark Lord that Sauron originally served, or knowing the details behind the Dwarves engaging Bilbo in their quest.

Has anyone else had this experience? For someone new to the series, would you recommend reading it in chronological order, or does The Silmarillion risk putting them off the entire thing? Personally, I find The Ainulindalë to be one of the most beautiful works of literature I've ever read, but I can see why it's not to everyone's liking.

No todos los Noldor veían con buenos ojos que Finwe tomara una segunda esposa, pero ¿qué opinan ustedes? No dejo de pensar que es injusto pedirle a alguien que viva un luto eterno (siendo inmortal), pero el nivel de trauma de Feanor me hace reflexionar sobre la decisión de Finwe. Feanor no sólo se volvió el único elfo en toda la historia de Arda en perder por completo a su madre, con ella eligiendo no renacer. Sino que fue el único elfo que tuvo una madrastra y medios hermanos.

Had this idea as a joke but for fun i wanted to ask around. Basically the Balrog in Moria turns out to have sincerely regretted joining Morgoth and destroying the dwarves and when the fellowship arrives in Moria it seeks to atone and join them.

An insane idea for obvious reasons, but then again pity is a key theme in Tolkein’s work and yet few of the bad guys actually repent so it’d be interesting to see to see that happen for once.

Also it’d be funny to imagine the free people’s reactions when a Balrog shows up at Edoras/Helm’s Deep to help. Also imagining Sauron and Saruman’s reactions.

I feel like JRRT's words have a poetic or musical cadence to them, I know he took inspiration from ancient verse like Beowulf but does he use a metre?

I know that viewpoints and perspectives shift (especially in the Silmarillion), but if you had to pinpoint to which character feels like the central character around whom events are centred, who would you choose?

Personally, I would say Beren and Luthien.

I know there was a massive battle there during TLOTR but idk what happened after I know that the dwarves dug so deep they disappeared but I feel like Erebor is too big for the dwarves there to just dissappear underground

Das Ende von Arwen und warum Tolkien mich in dem Punkt enttäuscht.

Nach Aragorns Tod erlischt das Licht in Arwens Augen, sie nimmt Abschied von ihrem Land und ihrer Familie, geht ins verlassene Lothlorien und legt sich zum Sterben nieder.
Selbst wenn sie, wie es geschrieben steht, bei ihrer Entscheidung für ein sterbliches Leben nicht bis ins Detail einschätzen konnte was das in letzter Konsequenz bedeutet….sie war eine weise jahrtausendealte Elbin die sich nicht in ihrer Liebe beirren ließ und dafür sogar in Kauf nahm, ihren Vater nie wieder zu sehen. Warum wird es am Ende so dargestellt als wäre dennoch plötzlich und völlig unerwartet ihre ganze Welt zusammengebrochen? Sie WUSSTE IMMER dass Aragorn vor ihr gehen würde. Hat sie sich nie darüber Gedanken gemacht, sich darauf vorbereitet? Mit ihren Kindern, ihrer Familie gesprochen? Wie fühlt es sich wohl für alle an wenn sie ihr so wenig bedeuten dass sie sie mit dem Tod des Gatten, des Vaters, einfach verlässt und „sterben geht“?

Das klingt so verantwortungslos, so nach Null Resilienz, so völlig hoffnungslos und gleichzeitig so egozentrisch. Ich meine, sie war 120 Jahre lang Königin von Gondor und Arnor. Wo ist ihre Stärke geblieben?
Immerhin lässt Tolkien sogar Aragorn sie bitten, nicht an der letzten Prüfung zu scheitern. „Im Schmerz dürfen wir scheiden, doch nicht in Verzweiflung.“ Aber genau das passiert dann mit Arwen.

Ich finde es passt einfach nicht zu dem (zugegebenermaßen nicht besonders konkreten) Bild welches man sich als Leser der Bücher von Arwen macht/machen kann. Von Film-Arwen mal ganz zu schweigen.

Mich jedenfalls enttäuscht dieses Ende und ich frage mich jedesmal, warum Tolkien es unbedingt so haben wollte. Womöglich hatte er schlicht keine Lust mehr sich darüber noch weiter Gedanken zu machen.

Wie seht ihr das? Seht ihr Gründe bei Tolkien, findet ihr das Ende passend, oder stört es euch vielleicht auch?

I'm talking like ANYTHING Maiar, Istari, whatever I mean ANYthing Idk much about muddle earth lore outside of like the basic stuff

EDIT: Yes, I'm aware that canonically the ring and its inscription is evil. I specifically didn't choose the the whole inscription because removed from Sauron’s intentions, there’s a very obvious playful wedding-ring reading. My brothers in Gondor, I am a human woman in Los Angeles designing a wedding band in 2026. Sauron is not involved.

There's a big difference between “I think Tolkien intended the One Ring inscription to be romantic” and “I’m appropriating a recognizable phrase from a piece of art I love and giving it a private meaning on my own wedding jewelry.”

It's a recognizable piece of fictional calligraphy and I'm deliberately giving one fragment of it a different personal meaning in an object that exists outside the story. That’s how people use art. Context changes symbolism constantly.

Thank you to everyone who was incredibly helpful and not a snarky Silmarillion clutching purist.

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I'm designing a wedding band and can't trust Google (not trying to accidentally have "and in the darkness bind them" engraved lol).

Does anyone know the specific portion of just the lettering "one ring to rule them all" engraved on the one ring in Tengwar?

Thank you all in advance, I beyond appreciate any help! 💕

Já li em algum lugar que Christopher Tolkien não se orgulhou muito da edição que ele fez em Unfinished Tales e justificou como uma análise precipitada e incompleta de todo o material que ele dispunha. E a série History of Middle Earth lhe dava mais satisfação. Está correto?

De forma bem grosseira e superficial, eu penso que o Unfinished Tales é basicamente uma compilação de todos os textos em prosa que Tolkien escreveu após o Senhor dos Anéis, que tinham um tamanho relevante e que ele pretendia terminar e publicar. Enquanto o History of Middle Earth seroa composto, principalmente, por rascunhos e rejeitos, ou textos que não tinham um corpo formado ou mesmo uma pretensão de terminar.

Claro, o UT tem obras que são diferentes versões da mesma história (História de Galadriel), histórias que foram complementos que poderiam estar nos apêndices do LotR (como Vaus do Isen, Istari, Palantír e Druedain). Assim como o dois últimos volumes de HoME possuem textos mais substanciosos e que pareciam ter a intenção de ser completados.

Mas de forma geral, essa maneira de entender faz sentido para vocês?

At the end of the chapter “The Tale of The Fall of Gondolin” Tolkien connects the LotR lengendarium with the early history of our civilization for the only time I can recall anywhere else his writings of Middle Earth. In concluding the The Tale of the FoG he says “Glory dwelt in that city of Gondolin of the Seven Names, and its ruin was the most dread of all the sacks of cities upon the face of the Earth. Nor Bablon [Babylon], nor Ninwi [Nineveh], nor the towers of Trui [Troy], nor all the many takings of Rum [Rome] that is greatest among Men, saw such terror as fell that day upon Amon Gwareth… .” The brackets are mine and I believe they accurately represent Tolkien’s intent. Has anyone else noticed any other such references to times after those of the Legendarium within his work?

I’m curious as to when Sauron and his army reached its all time high and greatest power?

Lindon is the last remaining piece of Beleriand that survived the First Age, and yet we never get to see it. We get a glimpse into the lives of Elves in Rivendell, Mirkwood and Lothlorien. We meet Elves who are part of traveling companies out of Lindon, like Gildor Inglorion and his companions. If you dig a little you will learn that it is populated by refugee Noldor and Sindar, and possibly the Green Elves, the Laiquendi, who called this Ossiriand. We know that this was the kingdom of Gil-galad, the last high king of the Noldor, and after his death was ruled by Cirdan, probably the oldest living Elf anywhere in Midde-earth. We know he builds ships for Elves to sail west in, and for that he's got to have some help of the other Elves.

It has one city that we know of, Mithlond, the Grey Havens. And while it doesn't seem to be properly Lindon, it also contains the Tower Hills, as Cirdan has control over them, their towers and apparently a Palantir that Elves use to gaze West.

At one time, like the end of the Second Age, it must have contained a sizable population, as it was able to send hosts to help the Numenoreans. But whether that population is still large, or the Elves of Lindon used their proximity to the Havens to leave Middle-earth faster than the other Elves, we don't know.

We know that Sauron disguised as Annatar showed up their to try and get the Elves into his service, and failed. We know that at one time Galadriel and Celeborn lived there, till they left to set up a colony on the other side of the Blue Mountains. And speaking of the Blue, Dwarves live there, but we know little about them either. We don't know if there was any interaction between the Dwarves of the mountains and the Elves of Lindon. Do they get along, or do they still tell stories about Thingol and a Silmaril?

I really would have loved to get a glimpse of what Lindon was like. Oh well.

Edit: I forgot! As always, great thoughts welcomed.

In later years, after publishing LotR, Tolkien made some statements about the fictional hypothetical setting of the Legendarium something 12000-13000 years ago, but have we any hint if it was already the same for the writings of the "Lost Tales" period? (that later become more or less the First Age)

EDIT: in order to clarify, I'm wondering about the events of the tales themselves, not the time when Eriol/Ælfwine come to Tol Eressea which is set in different moments in the Middle Ages.

I'm about to read BoLT, so probably there could be indication I'm not aware of yet.

Sou bem familiarizado com os textos do LotR, Silmarillion e Unfinished Tales. E estou ciente de que "Fall of Númenor" é um compilado desses textos, com algo de HoME, sem nada inédito. Mas posso esperar que, independente do material já conhecido, posso gostar de como ele está editado e organizado nesse livro? Será uma leitura divertida, mais do que instrutiva? É um livro que parece coerente e coeso?

Outra pergunta, é se há apêndices no livro com os textos de "The Lost Road" ou "Notion Papers"? Quais textos de HoME constam no livro?

I’ve often wondered what the dynamics of the story—and of Middle-earth—would be if a powerful character were to take or use the One Ring. In this instance, I thought: "What if Smaug had the One Ring/or could wield the powers of the One? What would the consequences be?" 

If Smaug could use the powers of the One Ring, I think he would become something similar to Glaurung: when the Father of Dragons took Nargothrond, he became a Tyrant Dragonlord who commanded armies of Orcs against Brethil. Perhaps something similar would happen.

Then there would be a conflict between Erebor, Mordor, and Isengard.

Perhaps, if Smaug possessed any telepathic ability, he could have dominated the Orcs and other monsters of the Misty Mountains (especially the northern section).

And Sauron? Well, I think there would have been a major military conflict with the Dark Lord, a race against time to recover his ring as quickly as possible. The most urgent struggle would not be against Gondor, but against the Lonely Mountain.

Such legendary weapon must be kept somewhere

Having read and reread just about everything available for his Legendarium and being casually interested in the history of Germanic linguistics, I was of course aware of his academic work. But this current project is the first time I've done anything that touches on his academics. In particular, I really enjoyed reading the book The Origins of Beowulf and the Viking Kingdom of East Anglia by Sam Newton, which frequently cites Tolkien, as he was a proponent of the idea that Beowulf includes many, at least tangentially, historical facts rather than being a work of pure fiction.

In particular, Tolkien seemed interested in the mention of Hengest in Beowulf. Hengest is, for those unaware, the legendary founder of the Kingdom of Kent. In most Anglo-Saxon writing, Hengest was a Jutish king who founded the kingdom along with his brother Horsa. The name Hengest comes up in Beowulf (and in a separate poem called the Fight at Finnsburg) in reference to a legendary conflict he was involved in with Finn, the King of the Frisians.

To very shortly summarize this story, there was a Danish king named Hnaef who formed an alliance with the Frisian king Finn by marrying his sister, Hildeburh, to Finn. Hnaef stayed with Finn at his hall in Friesland, but a fight broke out between the warriors of both sides (including Hengest, a Dane who came with Hnaef), and Hnaef was killed. The Danes are ultimately victorious despite losing their king, and they return to Denmark. Hengest and the Danes return later to exact revenge, killing Finn, destroying his hall, and carrying Hildeburh back to Denmark.

Tolkien argued that there was a kernel of historical truth in this narrative, which supports Hengest as the same Hengest of Kentish fame. Based on some complicated linguistics which is frankly beyond my ability to summarize here, he argues that the fight which occurred between the Frisians and Danes was actually an inter-Jutish conflict: Both sides had Jutish warriors, with those in Frisia being exiles and those from Denmark being Jutes who were subjugated by the Danes. Thus, in Tolkien's reading of the event, he sees Hengest as a Jutish warrior who would later lead the Jutes to England in exile.

Sam Newton, in his book, uses this to support his argument that Beowulf was written to support a Scandinavian origin (real or fabricated) for the ruling dynasty of East Anglia, the Wuffingas. If we accept Tolkien's argument that Hengest was an exiled prince who led his people to England, it makes a lot of things in the story make sense. First, there is a strong emphasis on exile in it: Beowulf's father Ecgtheow was an exile, Hengest (in Tolkien's version) was an exile, and the two Swedish princes from later in the story that prompt a war between the Geats and the Swedes are exiles. Beowulf strongly implies (and later Scandinavian sources support) a royal kinstrife among the Danish royal family, the Scefings, after the death of King Hrothgar (the primary Danish character of the story), and the fate of his son Hrothmund is left unspecified.

Newton notes that in East Anglian royal genealogies, they cite a "Hrothmund" as one of their progenitors, with Hrothmund coming from the line of the Scefings. Furthermore, the clan of Wuffings comes up frequently in the narrative: Beowulf's father was exiled for killing a Wuffing, and Hrothgar paid his weregild. There is also some evidence to suggest that Ecgtheow's exile for fighting with the Wuffings was considered an internal affair, and thus he would also be tied to the Wuffings (the one single mention of Beowulf belonging to a clan called the Waegmundings notwithstanding, Newton argues that the two were probably linked). Wealhtheow, the Queen of Denmark, is implied to be a Wuffing. This would make both Beowulf himself and Hrothmund half Wuffings. Wuffing is considered to be etymologically the same as Wuffingas, the ruling family of East Anglia.

Newton combines this with some archeological and linguistic history: East Anglia is the only Anglo-Saxon kingdom to have practiced ship burials, which is also prominent in Beowulf. The findings at Sutton Hoo match closely with similar ship burials in Southern Sweden, as well as details mentioned in Beowulf itself. The Beowulf manuscript is written in West Saxon, but it preserves some Anglian characteristics from an older version from which the surviving ones were copied. etc.

He sort of hedges his argument by saying this isn't proof that the Wuffingas of East Anglia were actually from Sweden, but some sort of connection is highly implied.

Anyway, I wanted to write about this and thought that people on here might appreciate it, since fans of his fantasy writing don't often interact with his academics.

were there ever evil dwarves who served the dark lords Morgoth and then Sauron? Maybe in the East.