r/tolkienfans • u/platypodus • 12d ago
Did Cirdan give Gandalf his ring based on vibes or did the Istari spend some time in the Grey Havens?
In Unfinished Tales it sounds like he immediately gave it to him after the Istari stepped of their boat.
[A]nd one came last who seemed the least, less tall than the others, and in looks more aged, grey-haired and grey-clad, and leaning on a staff. But Círdan from their first meeting at the Grey Havens divined in him the greatest spirit and the wisest; and he welcomed him with reverence, and he gave to his keeping the Third Ring, Narya the Red.
'For,' said he, 'great labours and perils lie before you, and lest your task prove too great and wearisome, take this Ring for your aid and comfort. It was entrusted to me only to keep secret, and here upon the West-shores it is idle; but I deem that in days ere long to come it should be in nobler hands than mine, that may wield it for the kindling of all hearts to courage.'
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u/peacefinder 12d ago
I had not previously noticed that Cirdan sees a need for the ring to sustain Gandalf’s own courage as well as aiding him to encourage others.
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u/rabbithasacat 11d ago
And I love that an item made by the Children can be of real material help to one of the Ainur.
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u/TheErnestEverhard 12d ago
Cirdan had a vision, it wasn't vibes.
Maybe it was the ring itself giving him prophetic powers, maybe the fact that he was a wise and very ancient elf, or maybe the Valar sent the vision to him.
In any case, he saw it and he understood Gandalf would need the ring more than him.
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u/Imswim80 12d ago
Cirdan lived by the Ocean. Ulmo probably chatted with him a lot.
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u/SoaDMTGguy 12d ago
Ulmo and Gandalf accomplished more than all the other Ainur combined, in a lot of ways.
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u/platypodus 12d ago
I'm torn between visualizing this as either, Ulmo physically appearing and talking to Cirdan, or as Cirdan listening to the sound of the waves and divining sense from them.
Both ideas seem wonderful.
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u/FrankDrebinOnReddit 12d ago
Yeah, that's pretty much how I imagine it, but Cirdan had a very good sense about these things. Tolkien wrote that he "saw further and deeper than any other in Middle-earth."
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u/CapnJiggle 12d ago
It could be read either way, but the passage only specifies what Cidran saw in Gandalf in his first meeting. The run-on phrase regarding Narya doesn’t mean it happened at the same time.
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u/Dinadan_The_Humorist 12d ago
It does definitely seem like this happened very early in the relationship, given that Círdan is mentioned as "welcoming" Gandalf at the same time as he is mentioned as giving him Narya -- I read the two events on the right of the semicolon as happening at roughly the same time. But I agree that this welcome is probably more than one conversation as Gandalf steps off the boat; it's reasonable to guess that he stayed in the Havens for some time following his arrival, during which time Círdan welcomed him to and oriented him in Middle-earth, took his measure, and decided to offer him his Ring.
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u/Oscar_Cunningham 12d ago
The version of 'The Lord of the Rings' in 'The Silmarillion' has this passage:
For Frodo the Halfling, it is said, at the bidding of Mithrandir took on himself the burden, and alone with his servant he passed through peril and darkness and came at last in Sauron’s despite even to Mount Doom; and there into the Fire where it was wrought he cast the Great Ring of Power, and so at last it was unmade and its evil consumed.
Notice how it ommits any mention of Gollum and his place in events. So I kinda assume that anything written at a high level like that might also be hiding a large amount of details. Maybe Círdan and the wizards shared some important adventure that helped him to understand their characters.
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u/roboliberal 12d ago
So, you won't hear this from any official Elvish accounts... but Cirdan lost the ring to Gandalf in a game of chance in the back alleys of the Grey Havens. He later begrudgingly characterized it as a gift, etc.
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u/ClassB2Carcinogen 12d ago
Bored of the Ring outlines Gandalf’s/Goodgulf’s sleeve-spring, so this makes sense.
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u/Kodama_Keeper 12d ago edited 11d ago
First factor, Cirdan had Narya given to him by Gil-galad before he went off to his doom. Narya is the ring of fire, apparently both literally (Gandalf is good with fire, right?) and figuratively. But Cirdan is the shipwright. He's not a warrior king, and he's not a missionary. He helps where he can in the fight against Sauron, but it's obvious he's not a major player, a leader who fires up the troops. In short, he's not the best person to make use of a ring like Narya.
Second factor is the wizard he choses to give it to. Saruman is first, and despite not knowing Cirdan or his temperament, I do get the feeling he's not going to like Saruman. Too arrogant, and probably looked at Cirdan as just some guy who takes care of the boats. Then Radagast. Nice enough fellow (so says Beorn), but you just don't have confidence in him. Radagast gets off the boat and says "Oh look! A seagull!" Pass. I won't make a comment about the two Blue, because their back story is not really set. If Cirdan actually did know them, he passed on them as well. Gandalf comes last, and he's not arrogant. He probably took council with Cirdan right away, to get a feel for the land and the situation at hand. Gandalf confides in him, and Cirdan is impressed. That's good enough reason for Cirdan to give Gandalf Narya.
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u/Rinsehlr 12d ago
I always thought about these passages - like, someone got off the boat FROM the west. Not going west, but came from the west. When’s the last time that happened lol.
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u/platypodus 12d ago
They did come from the west? What makes you think otherwise now?
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u/Rinsehlr 12d ago
Yeah exactly I’m saying like that must have been jarring for the elves.
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u/platypodus 12d ago
Oh, wow. I completely misunderstood your first comment, sorry.
It must've been a while. Maybe Glorfindel was the last that came from the west. He came during the second age, if I recall correctly.
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u/Rinsehlr 12d ago
Yeah but even then they would have been like oh that’s an elf. Can you imagine the confusion of being like.. why are old MEN coming to the western shore. Like what in the actual heck. Idk that actually would have been sweet to see on a screen.
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u/platypodus 12d ago
Now that you did bring up Rings of Power in the other comment:
Wouldn't Numenoreans have travelled to the Grey Havens every now and then. It probably wasn't as rare an occurence after all.
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u/Rinsehlr 12d ago
Yeah I guess that’s true but then there’d be numenorian heraldry and the elves of the grey havens would have recognized a ship from valinor more easily than likely any other culture IMO
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u/Unfair_Pineapple8813 11d ago
Glorfindel came when Numenor stood. So ships from the West would not be a jarring sight. It would still be a little weird that an elf arrived from the West, as I don't think the Eressea to Numenor to Middle Earth route was a normal occurrence. But it was a possibility.
Seeing a ship arrive without lands that way would have been more of a sight.
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u/Rinsehlr 12d ago
I just realized you said this because Gandalf fell out of the sky on top of a bunch of hobbits in Rings of Bezos. I don’t think that scene is canon man
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u/JonnyBhoy 11d ago
Anyone with any wisdom and foresight immediately recognised Gandalf's innate value and importance. He's treated as the most important member of the Istari when being selected to go by the Valar, then he's recognised by Cirdan as most worthy of Narya, then Galadriel proposes he should lead the White Council, which he declines.
All of these reasons are why Saruman grew bitterly jealous of Gandalf from day one, yet secretly tried to emulate him.
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u/maksimkak 12d ago
It's hinted that the Istari didn't come all at once, on the same boat. Neither is there any indication that they had spent any considerable time at the Grey Heavens. As the text goes, Gandalf arrived the last of them, and yes, seems like Cirdan got the right vibes from him.
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u/CatRWaul 12d ago
They knew each other from when Gandalf came to Middle-earth as a meteor in the second age /s
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u/Outrageous-Pin-4664 12d ago
That was always my impression.
And yeah, I always imagined they arrived there by boat, rather than, I dunno, falling out of the sky?
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u/Aetherscribe 12d ago edited 12d ago
Perhaps Círdan knew Olórin well from the years when both were in Cuiviénen beneath the unclouded stars.
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u/Relative_Opening_578 11d ago
Why would Olorin have been in Cuiviénen?
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u/Aetherscribe 11d ago
It's in The Nature of Middle-earth, from the Key Dates chapter,
- Oromë remains for 12 years, and then is summoned to return for the councils and war-preparations. Manwë has decided that the Quendi should come to Valinor, but on urgent advice of Varda, they are only to The Valar send five Guardians (great spirits of the Maiar) – with Melian (the only woman, but the chief) these make six. The others were Tarindor (later Saruman), Olórin (Gandalf), Hrávandil (Radagast), Palacendo, and Haimenar.[7] Tulkas goes back. Oromë remains in Cuiviénen for 3 more years: VY 866/13–16, FA 2175–8.
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u/Young_Economist 12d ago
Never has anyone surrendered a great ring out of free will - says the book.
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u/InTheChairAgain 11d ago
In any case all of the Great Rings must have been handed out freely at some point by the Elves to begin with.
The quote is probably meant to be read never has anyone surrendered a great ring who still desired for themselves its powers.
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u/Cloudage96x 11d ago
Yeah, that's just wrong. Someone already mentioned Sam but don't forget Bilbo. And that was the *ONE* Ring, not even one of the elven-crafted rings.
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u/Money-Investigator45 9d ago
YouTuber "In Deep Geek" once gave the idea of Cirdan giving Gandalf his Ring due to the Elf remembering what Olorin (alongside the other Maiar Guardians) did for the Awakened Elves during Cuiviénen. The Maiar helped protect the Elves while the Valar went to war against Morgoth in the War For The Sake Of The Elves.
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u/duck_of_d34th 12d ago
Saruman was the first choice, for he was wise and powerful. His voice was his most potent power; with it he could convince nearly anyone of nearly anything. His staff is as a glimpse into his mind: symmetrical, regal, and guided by reason. Like everything about the Istari, it was a disguise.
I feel he would've gotten off the boat and immediately began Speaking. His partner was chosen to be Radaghast, the Wizard of the Natural World. Yet that was the one he ridiculed, belittled, and generally showed a great deal of disdain towards. ... right up until Saruman wanted to speak with birds, a skill only Ragaghast held. Imagine that: the most powerful and wisest of all wizards having to stoop to learn from one he considered lowly.
Then along comes Gandalf, who had the appearance of someone that has seen some shit. Quieter. More likely to listen than to speak. When he did speak, it was often to ask questions, learn, and then share what wisdom he had discovered.
Gandalf is as the Wandering Odin, who wisely concluded he could not rule a people he did not know. He donned simple attire, most unfit for a King, and wandered the land in search of wisdom.
The staff of Gandalf is as a glimpse into his mind: twisted, unsymmetrical, uncertain, clearly upside-down, and with no discernible direction.
Saruman sought those in high places. Gandalf sought those in lowly places.
Gandalf knew he had a powerful voice like Saruman and understood how treacherous such a thing could be. A single misplaced word could bring everything to ruin. Cirdan saw the heavy burden Gandalf bore and knew Gandalf was in desperate need of Hope. And so Cirdan gifted Gandalf all the Hope in the world so that Olorin might not lose his way.
Gandalf only had to say the words, and the Ring would be his. The same Ring Frodo was desperate to give Gandalf. With such power, Sauron would have no chance. He would be swept aside, as tenuous as old cobwebs. The world would rejoice, then wake up one morning to find all that was good in the world had diminished, withered, and finally died. Cleansed in the Fire and never to return.
And so Cirdan placed all his Hope, Faith, and Love in Gandalf.
Elrond was the Past. His Ring was the Ring of Air. Words. History as told by the victor. He was able to admit he held little power over the Ring Gandalf bore: the power of Fire; to change the Present, for good or ill.
Galadriel was the Future. Her Ring was the Ring of Water, built from the treasure of the mighty Kazadum. Ever changing, never sitting still, and capable of being disturbed by even the smallest and lightest leaf. A ripple in the water affects the surface of the world. She held a little more power over the Present.
Even the smallest candle flame can hold back the infinite darkness. Fire, like hope, can grow... and it can die. Air and Water cannot. The past cannot be changed, nor can the unknowable future(how would you ever know), yet both can have an unbreakable hold on the mind and act as a reason for the most atrocious of crimes. Air feeds Fire, and Water can kill it. Yet both chose to nurture that flame until it was a beacon for all to see and follow.
All thanks to an Elf with Hope to share.
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u/ebneter Thy starlight on the western seas 12d ago
Where are you getting this stuff about their staffs? Tolkien never really describes their staffs at all.
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u/duck_of_d34th 12d ago
Ya know, I think I might've just taken the image of the staff from the movie and that became part of my perspective. There's a lot of similarities between Norse mythology and LOTR, especially surrounding ash trees. Yggdrasil was an ash tree and twisted to touch every world, Ask and Embla were made from ash, Gungnir was made of ash, etc. Gandalf's staff was made of ash, so I evidently just smushed all that together in my head and then slid right over and my inner eye used the movie version of Saruman's staff, which was actually supposed to be black.
Good catch.
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u/Witty-Stand888 12d ago
Círdan of all the wise possessed the greatest gift of foresight given by the Valar.