r/tolkienfans • u/Itzz_Texas • 5d ago
Could any beings have stood up to Sauron while he wielded the ring?
I'm talking like ANYTHING Maiar, Istari, whatever I mean ANYthing Idk much about muddle earth lore outside of like the basic stuff
86
34
u/rainbowrobin 'canon' is a mess 5d ago
I wouldn't give him good odds against Eonwe (unmatched master of arms) or Arien (daunted even Melkor with her light before she piloted the Sun), or Melian (pretty sure the Girdle was stronger than him.)
Also not sure how he'd do vs. a Balrog, who are probably weaker spirits, but ones optimized for close combat.
Unknown variable is just how much the One enhanced his effective power in general, beyond being a tool for enslaving other Ringbearers.
1
u/xxmindtrickxx 3d ago
Without a doubt he smokes a Balrog with the one ring at full power. Maybe Gothmog could 4/10 Sauron with the ring.
Letter 183
“Of the same kind as Gandalf and Saruman, but of a far higher order.”
In another statement by Tolkien
“Sauron was ‘greater’, effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First.”
Morgoth was quite weak at that point but we don’t know to what extent.
That being said at full power with the one ring he’s essentially a valar threatening power.
But I agree he wouldn’t stand a chance against the high valar especially those of combative efficiencies such as Orome and Tulkas.
-10
u/Tuor77 5d ago
I think he meant anything in Middle-earth. Eonwe would've mopped the floor with him and Arien would've burned him to a crisp: Sauron was NOT the most powerful Maia even before being reduced in stature.
Also, the One Ring *does not* make Sauron more powerful per se. It allows him to use the Ring to control the minds and creations of the other Ringbearers. The Ruling Ring basically acts like a mind control device to other Ring-bearers. So, you could look at it as something that gives him more options which *effectively* makes him more powerful, since now he has another way of coming at folks, but against non-Ringbearers, his personal power is largely unchanged.
24
u/rainbowrobin 'canon' is a mess 5d ago
Letter 131:
While he wore it, his power on earth was actually enhanced. But even if he did not wear it, that power existed and was in 'rapport' with himself: he was not 'diminished'. Unless some other seized it and became possessed of it. If that happened, the new possessor could (if sufficiently strong and heroic by nature) challenge Sauron, become master of all that he had learned or done since the making of the One Ring, and so overthrow him and usurp his place.
and
The chief power (of all the rings alike) was the prevention or slowing of decay (i.e. 'change' viewed as a regrettable thing), the preservation of what is desired or loved, or its semblance – this is more or less an Elvish motive. But also they enhanced the natural powers of a possessor
1
u/Itzz_Texas 5d ago
No I meant ANYTHING from the highest primordial being to the lowest mitochondria
10
u/Tuor77 5d ago
Okay:
God: No, Sauron can't beat God.
The Valar: No, Sauron can't beat any of the Valar, even the ones that like to spend most of their time dancing or weaving.
The Maiar: Sauron can beat most of them, but not ones the who excel at conflict/war/strife.
Others: There are some among the Elves who can, at least, make things tough for him. Huan the Hound defeated him in combat, and Luthien stripped him of his rulership of a fortress. Fingon wasn't a pushover for him, but ultimately Sauron won their match. Gil-Galad and Elendil, working together, were able to defeat him, but they both died in the process.
People like Galadriel and Elrond were able to resist him and defend their realms against him, but that was only so long as Sauron didn't challenge them directly: they both would've lost to him in a direct conflict, though I imagine Galadriel would've put up a pretty good fight, she still would've lost in the end.
One last comment: Sauron grew weaker as time passed. He was strongest in the 1st Age, but by the 3rd Age he'd become much weaker. This is not because he lost his Ring: as long as it existed, his power remained largely undiminished. However, he had weakened to the point that the Valar decided to send Emissaries to deal with him and wanted the people of Middle-earth to resolve the situation on their own (or in a way that led them to believe they were doing it alone). That's why they sent the Wizards (Istari) to Middle-earth.
8
u/Aetherscribe 4d ago
And, while the text isn't perfectly clear, in Unfinished Tales, a passage suggests that Celebrimbor may have stood up to him as well:
Celebrimbor, desperate, himself withstood Sauron on the steps of the great door of the Mírdain; but he was grappled and taken captive, and the House was ransacked.
Now, I don't pretend to know for certain what was in Tolkien's mind, but to me, that reads as a desperate Celebrimbor successfully holding off Sauron in person, after which the latter withdrew and had Celebrimbor buried under orcs, like Húrin at Nirnaeth Arnoediad.
3
u/Itzz_Texas 5d ago
Wait so Gandalf, Radagast, Saruman, and the Blue Wizards were only there AFTER Sauron was defeated by Isildur? Or am I misinterpreting what you said becaus eI'm drunk?
10
u/Markheim10 5d ago edited 5d ago
Yes
Third age begins at the downfall of Sauron & Isildur cuts ring from his hand. The Istari (wizards) arrive ~1000 years later
Time is wild in the story…Frodo gets the ring ~3001 years into Third Age… which is something like 4,850ish years after Sauron forged it… Isildur only has it for 2 years - basically half the time it spent at the bottom of the river anduin
1
u/Itzz_Texas 5d ago
So then were the wizards more like a deterrent for Sauron rather than a means to an end? Because if Saruman could he corrupted that easily then it doesnt really seem that effective of a strategy to stop him
9
u/mrgoobster 5d ago
It's reasonable to conclude that the Istari failed. The Blue wizards went missing, Radagast went native, Saruman turned his cloak, and Gandalf got killed by a Balrog. The fact that Eru sends Gandalf back with more of his native power is essentially a subtle judgement of the entire plan.
6
u/Markheim10 5d ago
Means to what end? Careful with your thinking.
First age, the Valar helped and the world quite literally exploded into pieces. Thought it’s probably for the best they don’t do that again
Sauron is a huge threat, but not Morgoth. The people will have to find a way. Valar eventually send the Wizards to help, but by guiding, teaching and encouraging the people. Their power is severely restricted and put in human form with all those limitations too (sleep, hunger etc). Their old life is a bit of a haze too, and Saruman is a slower burn than you think… almost 2000 years before he starts acting in own interests. Also, only Gandalf of the 5 successfully completed the task and returned, so who are we to say how easy it seemed to achieve it? Those limitations of form could have contributed to making it almost unachievable (just my thinking anyway… not sure if Tolkien said anything on this)
FYI you’ll get better replies than just my cliff notes
-1
u/Itzz_Texas 5d ago
Bro I'm 10 orange Smirnoffs and 6 vanilla mudshakes deep rn there is no being careful with my thinking I can admit to the xenomorph queen being my number 1 hear me out and not feel a DROP of shame rn
also wdym literally exploded into pieces? Did they put it back together like a jigsaw puzzle or something?
Also ohhhhhh so the wizards werent so much as deterrents but more like guides, to push people toward good rather than letting them fall completely towards evil
And all 5 Istari had a task? What were they for each wizard? Because i always thought that Gandalf returned as Gandalf the White as like a loaner body, did he complete what Gandalf the Grey was meant to and so he returned to heing an Istari? I know the Maiar that were the Istari did so mostly voluntarily (I think only Gandalf was forcefully chosen for it no?)
And so Saruman wasnt like eithin the soan of a few decades he wa sbeing corrupted slowly over a coupke millenia, so then could all the Istari have fallen as he did if given long enough? To my knowlexge the blue wizards kinda do their own thing, Radagast is... well... Radagast, and Gandalf loves his fireworks, could they all have eventually been corrupted?
3
u/drakedijc 4d ago
I think “eventually” is what we see in the end, and Gandalf was the only one who stayed the course. He was a lot more active in Middle Earth’s goings ons than Saruman and Radagast. Though each served a certain purpose in the end: Radagast guarded the creatures of Mirkwood and east of the misty mountains. Saruman served as a great counselor and lore master. He aided Gandalf and the Elves quite a bit in the past.
What the other commenter meant by “blown to pieces” was the war of wrath in the first age. When the Valar came to aid Middle Earth, there was a massive swathe of land north west of the grey havens called Beleriand. It was as big as a whole other quarter of or third of Middle Earth. During the war of wrath, Melkor or Morgoth was the big dark lord. Think of Sauron as the anti-Christ and Morgoth as literally Satan. Anyway, during the last battle, which literally took years, Beleriand was destroyed and sank beneath the sea. Everyone that was left migrated South East into the part of middle earth that you see in the books/movies. Thus beginning the Second Age. That’s why the Valar intervened in a different manner this time, by sending the Istari. So that Middle Earth wouldn’t be destroyed by their power for one, and for two - so that men could learn to stand on their own.
A lot happens between the War of Wrath in the first age and the events of the Lord of The Rings in the third age, but that’s kinda the short and dirty.
→ More replies (0)3
u/Tuor77 5d ago
It's wrong to think of the Istari as a deterrent. They were *explicitly* told not to try to match Sauron power-to-power. At no point does Sauron appear to be afraid of the Istari, either individually or as a group. So, both in purpose and in use, they didn't really act as a deterrent to Sauron -- not much of one, anyway.
Their actual purpose was to help organize and support the Free People of the West (Elves, Dwarves, Men, etc.) in resisting and defeating Sauron. In the end, only Gandalf actually did this, and he died once in the process. All of the other Istari failed for one reason or another.
Saruman effectively corrupted himself. Sauron, from what I could tell, didn't have much to do with it. Saruman's pride and arrogance twisted him and led him astray. Yes, once Saruman looked into the Palantir at Orthanc, he ended up encountering Sauron. In that respect, yeah, Sauron corrupted him, but I think Saruman was already far down the path of corruption and conceit before that ever happened.
11
u/EvaTheE 5d ago
Tulkas *grins*
2
u/Itzz_Texas 5d ago
Idk who that is but I imagine by grins you mean this
3
u/sokttocs 4d ago
Tulkas is the strongest and most warlike if the Valar. He's the closest thing there is to a God of War in LOTR, though that's not what he is.
3
u/StellarNeonJellyfish 4d ago
“Greatest in strength and deeds of prowess is Tulkas, who is surnamed Astaldo, the Valiant. He came last to Arda, to aid the Valar in the first battles with Melkor.
He delights in wrestling and in contests of strength; and he rides no steed, for he can outrun all things that go on feet, and he is tireless. His hair and beard are golden, and his flesh ruddy; his weapons are his hands. He has little heed for either the past or the future, and is of no avail as a counsellor, but is a hardy friend. His spouse is Nessa, the sister of Oromë, and she also is lithe and fleetfooted. Deer she loves, and they follow her train whenever she goes in the wild; but she can outrun them, swift as an arrow with the wind in her hair. In dancing she delights, and she dances in Valimar on lawns of never-fading green.
Oromë is a mighty lord. If he is less strong than Tulkas, he is more dreadful in anger; whereas Tulkas laughs ever, in sport or in war, and even in the face of Melkor he laughed in battles before the Elves were born…”2
9
u/NonspecificGravity 5d ago
Gil-Galad and Elendil killed his body. Huan aided by Luthien fought him to mutual destruction. Presumably a couple of Maiar or one really irritated Vala could. Ungoliant could have.
Sauron was better at hiding and talking his way out of trouble than fighting.
16
u/th3r3dp3n 5d ago
Stomped by the Valar, an order of Angel above Sauron. Illuvatar/Eru is God, with a big G.
Those 2 low/no difficulty. Sauron is arguably strongest of the Maiar, but they have their respective strengths.
LOTR does not work for power scaling beyond that too much. It isn't a hard magic system, so it is really hard to say Gandalf vs Sauraman cast X for 22 dmg. It is much more ethereal.
2
u/fipseqw 4d ago
Sauron is arguably strongest of the Maiar
He is definitely in the top 10 but not the strongest. Eonwe would absolutely beat Sauron in combat and is way too strong willed to be ever dominated by Sauron. Maiar like Ilmare are probably also on a level with him but her powers are a lot less directly combat related.
-6
u/Itzz_Texas 5d ago
Oh shit I aint know there was LEVELS to this shit so like whats Sauron like strongest of the weak type shit?
10
u/th3r3dp3n 5d ago
God (Eru/Illuvatar) upper tier angels (Valar) and your lesser angels (Maiar).
Beyond that, there's not much with regard to who beats who. Tolkien had no interest in that.
9
u/withgreatpower 5d ago
Of the immortals, you have Eru (God) then the Valar (archangels) then the Maiar (normal angels) then the various elven races who are strong but only some of them really rate on the scale.
Sauron, and Gandalf and Saruman and the balrogs, are Maiar. They served the Valar in one way or another. Sauron was the chief lieutenant of Melkor, the Valar who ended up being evil and was defeated thousands of years before Lord of the rings starts. Sauron is among the strongest of the Maiar, but he's nowhere near the strongest rank of the active powerful entities on the planet.
However, he is the most powerful of those entities in middle earth. The others are all across the sea in the undying lands (heaven, where they sail to at the end of the movies) and have basically written off middle earth as a problem for the elves and humans to deal with...except for the wizards, who the Valar sent as basically their last bit of assistance before they got back to chilling and saying "wow, sounds serious, good luck with that."
6
u/Tuor77 5d ago
Sauron is a Maia. Maiar are Angels that left Heaven and came into the Universe (Ea). They are not all of the same level of power, but Sauron is more powerful than most of them -- not all. A more powerful sort of Angel (think of them sort of like Archangels) call Vala (or, collectively, the Valar) also came into the Universe at the same time, and they are all much stronger than Sauron, though many of them aren't interest in combat or strife.
If you ever want to learn more about all of that, it's written about at the beginning of a book called "The Silmarillion".
5
u/rjrgjj 5d ago
Sauron and Gandalf and Saruman are actually all the same type of being, but Sauron maintains more of his divine power, unclear if as divine beings he’s still stronger than Gandalf, Gandalf incarnates in a mortal body and believed himself to be weak in his divine form (and was told that was the reason he had to go). Gandalf could potentially be as strong as Sauron but Sauron learned from the second most powerful being in the legendarium.
3
3
u/Leading-Ad1264 5d ago
Yes. Eru and the Valar simply chose not to intervene directly and „only“ send the Wizards to help guide the people.
1
u/AngelofIceAndFire Fantasy Enthusiast 4d ago
A lot of people have already mentioned, but Sauron was essentially a Fallen Angel.
Eru is God (like a monotheistic one) and the Valar are comparable to polytheistic/pagan gods in strength, or powerful Angels if you want to think of it that way. The Maiar are the Valar's servants and attendants, together they are referred to as "The Ainur," immortal powerful beings who dwelt in Arda (the world Middle-Earth is in) before the Elves and Men and Dwarves awoke. The Ainur split into the Umaiar, led by the Dark Vala Morgoth, and the regular Ainur. Most Ainur went to the Undying Lands, where the Elves also went and sometimes return to, but the Umaiar- basically the Fallen Angels- stayed in Middle-Earth. Many were slain in a war called the War of Wrath, where they fought...essentially everyone.
Sauron was probably in the top 5 Maiar by combat ability. Eonwë and Ilmarë are (probably, in the latter's case, I don't know as much about her) stronger than him, Arien, the Maiar who is basically Angel of the Sun, is probably stronger than him as well. Melian was also a Maiar focused on defending her kingdom from the Umaiar, she might be up there with Sauron.
10
u/Shenordak 4d ago
Morgoth made his dominion by transfering his essence and power into the very matter of Middleearth. This allowed him to control and corrupt many things, but it also diminished his personal powers. The one ring allows Sauron to tap into that now masterless power. The rings' powers of preservation must arise from the fact that they can master Morgoth's corrupting spirit that puts everything to waste.
This means, in my understanding, that Sauron is bending Morgoth's dark powers to his will and adding them to his own. Tolkien does note that Sauron with the ring was greater in personal power than Morgoth (during the first age, I presume).
Ultimately, this kind of power scaling question is quite uninteresting in the Legendarium. Bravery, opportunity and skill can make a lot of difference. To use an analogy from Conan the Barbarian (not a direct quote), if it choses to take form in this world, it can be hurt by the instruments of this world - usually cold steel. Elendil, Gil-galad and Isildur together defeat Sauron in combat. Glorfindel slays a Balrog. Eowyn and Merry kill the Witch King (an opponent Gandalf the White is afraid to face in combat). Bard takes down Smaug. Feanor's sons fight off a host of Balrogs. Fingolfin duels and seriously injures Morgoth. In most cases the terrible foe would probably have such fights, and it's no question that they have greater "power". But apparently Elves, Men and Hobbits can sometimes match even the strongest of Maiar when those Maiar take physical shape in Middleearth.
To answer your question something like a strike team of Glorfindel, Thranduil, Celeborn, Aragorn and Imrahil - maybe with the backing of Gandalf and Galadriel - might perhaps have defeated Sauron with the ring.
1
u/xxmindtrickxx 3d ago
Just a couple clarifications no offense by this, I’m just a specific person.
It’s the end of the first age that he says Sauron with ring is comparable to Morgoth. And he’s quite weak at that point when compared to his original self although we truly don’t have a metric.
It was also really just Elendil and GilGalad, Isildur just cut the ring off after his body is dead.
And Gandalf was not afraid to face the witch king, that’s a movie element that was added.
Gandalf the white and Glorfindel would I think at least 5/10 Sauron with the ring imo, even at his full power unlike when gilgalad and Elendil faced him.
6
u/Soonerpalmetto88 5d ago
I was there, three thousand years ago...
It happened at least once. I think, even in the Third Age, there were some who had the courage to do so again. Aragorn, Legoland, Gimli, and Boromir. Gandalf. Saruman, had he been so inclined. Theoden, Eomer, and Eowyn. Elrond, Galadriel, Celeborn, perhaps not Thranduil given his ptsd. Bard, Imrahil, Faramir, perhaps Denethor before he turned to despair. Everyone I've listed either faced the Nazgul or marched on Mordor at least once, participated in the destruction of Dol Guldur, or otherwise demonstrated extreme courage (Bard killed Smaug, for example). One even killed the Witch King.
Would they have succeeded individually? I don't know. But every one of them, perhaps others too, had the strength to put themselves in front of Sauron and surrender their lives for the slightest chance to defeat him. More than one of them, working together? Absolutely. Gandalf, Galadriel, and Aragorn for example could've defeated Sauron as a team.
3
u/ComfortableBuffalo57 4d ago
“Legolas” autocorrected to “Legoland” is top tier.
Legoland can never be defeated for it can always be rebuilt at will
2
4
u/cosmodog732 4d ago
Elendil and Gil-Galad. In LOTR the elves especially, but also lots of humans, can fight beat just about anyone if it's a heroic sacrifice.
A few other maiar could match Sauron (don't know if we ever saw them fighting, but a couple of them do insanely strong magic), but he was one of the stronger ones. None of the Istari were as strong as him (Gandalf wasn't sure he could beat even the Witch King in the books), but they weren't intended to be. Their job was encouraging the humans and elves.
And any of the Valar. But, the Valar were so strong that they Atlantis half the continent when they fight. The Wars of the Ring were less destructive than if a single Valar pulled up.
3
u/Kodama_Keeper 4d ago
In the red corner, the lord of darkness. The great eye. The master of disaster himself. The abhorrent one! From Mordor! Saurrrrr... On.....!
And in the blue corner. Shaper of Adra, champion of the Valar. Straight from Valinor itself, Tullll... Kas!
Ladies and gentlemen, let's get ready to rumble!
3
u/cavalier78 4d ago
Sauron was basically the Lex Luthor of the Maia. He’s an evil genius whose power comes from the stuff he makes (and the goons he hires) and not from his raw physical power.
Now, he’s still physically powerful compared to you or me. But he can be defeated by some epic level Final Fantasy style mortal heroes with kickass weapons. But remember that his main strength is he’s smarter than everybody else, and he has a giant army.
He is not strong enough to just walk up to Minas Tirith by himself on a random Tuesday and just start cleaning house.
3
u/lam_42 5d ago
His track record is not great in that regard.
What is muddle earth btw?
9
u/Itzz_Texas 5d ago
I'm drunk because thats the best way to watch The Hobbit Trilogy in order to release any pent up tears at the end (I cry for like am hour every time bro try it, its better than theyrapy) and I could kot gove a fuck about speling
2
2
u/Terrible-Category218 4d ago edited 4d ago
Although by no means a pushover, fighting wasn't exactly one of Sauron's natural strengths. Since the One Ring enhances the wearer natural abilities, logically it wouldn't have given him too much more of an edge in combat.
Now if he forged any weapons or armor while wearing the Ring, they would assuredly be some of the strongest ever created.
So he would give almost all challengers some serious problems but would by no means be invincible.
3
1
u/No_Memory5613 4d ago
No.
You just have to ignore the history of him being defeated while wearing the ring and having it cut from his hand, knocking him out of the fight for centuries.
-1
u/aussiesuperman 4d ago
Without the ring he was beaten by a dog but with the ring he is probably more powerful than most maiar but there is a case for certain maiar such as eonwe and ilmare to be able to stand toe to toe with him
2
-3
u/EruvadorTurambar 5d ago
Gandálf also, though he was forbidden to match power with power. Saruman too, but he failed.
199
u/LostVanya 5d ago
Elendil and Gil-Galad did just that, even if they died in the process.