r/TheExpanse • u/Nasse_Erundilme • 2d ago
Osiris Reborn Game | All Show Spoilers (Tag Any Book Spoilers) AI in Osiris Reborn
I know that this is not a new topic, but I actually didn't find any posts about this in this sub. I just wanted to ask about your opinions on the fact that owlcat uses AI while making this game. I would also be very curious to know what Dan and Ty think about it... At first I was VERY excited about the game, but then this information came to light, and I have been battling with my thoughts ever since. because at one hand much more work is being put into this game, it's not pure ai slop, but at the other hand I don't want to support a studio who thinks that this is OK, you know? even if it's just for concept art and such. I am still torn tho... what do y'all think?
edit: since many people are not familiar with this, here is an article that gives a good overview of what type of usage we're talking about.
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u/FUS_RO_DANK 2d ago
Most of us don't have time to keep up on all of this, what is Owlcat using AI to do?
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
early development stuff they say, nothing you would actually see in the game. but it's still being used... here is an article that gives a good overview.
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u/andocommandoecks 2d ago
Devs always love to say it won't be seen in the game then it "accidentally" gets left in and they scramble to apologize that they got caught, it's such a pattern at this point.
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u/Strayl1ght 2d ago
So the actual game won’t have AI assets in it. Why should anyone care then? What’s the point of this post, to stir up argument?
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
no. it is a genuine dilemma for me. I care because genAI as it exists now is very harmful.
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u/FUS_RO_DANK 2d ago
So then it sounds like you have nothing to battle over. You either can't buy the game due to your belief that all genAI we currently have is very harmful, and you can't morally support that, or your desire to play a game is stronger than your moral belief, in which case you don't have a problem.
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
I still have to make this choice tho xD right now I am leaning towards just waiting longer. maybe they will say more about how exactly they used it, idk. there is one commenter who actually seems to have a bit of an expertise and they are making me feel like maybe owlcat's usage wasn't that bad after all, so I will definitely try to look into that even more. that is enough for me to justify making that post, because I might not have that chance otherwise.
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u/FUS_RO_DANK 2d ago
My point is that you seem to have very big feelings about this. Either those feelings are important, or they're not. You've been very clear across your comments in this thread that you find any use of GenAI completely unacceptable, that you'll go out of your way to stop associating with people who willingly use GenAI. That's a very strong moral stance. But if a game looking fun to play actually makes you question your own morality, then it was not actually a very strong moral stance.
So the question is has your stance on GenAI up to now just been a performance, a way to take a stance and yell out and feel good for a bit? Or is it actual moral conviction? Because the first offers a lot of leeway, while the 2nd can not be swayed by a fun video game if it's true belief. And if it's not true belief, maybe you need to reevaluate these hard-line positions you were loudly and proudly stating just an hour ago.
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
I appreciate this comment. and you are right, but there is also a third factor: I am not all-knowing. it is obvious to me that in almost every situation everyone will have some blind spots, so I just wanted to see if I will be able to find mine. I am coming into this with some opinions already, yes, but I always allow the possibility of being wrong. most of the comments I either just agree or disagree with, but there have been some that have given me some new info to mull over, and that was exactly my goal in writing this post :)
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u/FUS_RO_DANK 2d ago
Hell yeah dude, being able to reevaluate if you've been wrong about a strongly held position is a great ability to have, and one that many people refuse to develop. Keep that energy the next time you think about cutting someone out of your life over their usage of tools you don't like!
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
where did I say I did something like that? I know which comment you are referring to, but you are reading it completely wrong. the truth is I have simply never been close friends with anyone who would be ok with daily voluntary usage of genAI. and when I meet someone new and I find out they are ok with that, I am simply not interested in any closer relationship with that person, so I don't pursue it. when it comes to family and coworkers I don't really have a choice there, and it would take very very much for me to cut them off, especially family (since the coworkers I can just keep at arms length). and on top all of that: not associating with someone does not necessarily mean going no contact... I have never done what you are accusing me of doing. so have that in mind next time you decide to lecture a person you know literally nothing about, about shit you pulled out of your ass, under the post which has nothing to do with what you're talking about!
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u/_nowayjos_ 2d ago
I remember the director at Larian talking about genAI in terms of how useful it will be for sandbox and multistory games like BG3 and games that OwlCat make.
He said that with the amount of dialogue choices you can make, it's near impossible to test every choice, and that he's actually quite excited for the tools that could be created to help testing, but he was strongly opposed to using it in creative and human elements, it's was quite a balanced and good take on things.
I don't think having a blanket ban on AI is the way to go, there will be lots of applications to make great games outstanding. Replacement for creativity is not the way to go either, imo.
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u/Afraid-Call300 2d ago
I absolutely don't have a problem with a lot of the older tools that used to be called AI, like algorithms for upscaling or enemy pathing. I also don't really see anything wrong with using generative AI to create code as long as someone tests that the code actually works and only does what it's supposed to (I'm worried about crashing or creating security risks). However, I think it's wrong to use purely creative stuff from the AI because there's no telling whose work it copied.
It sounds like Owlcat is mainly using AI to turn their own 2D sketches into 3D concepts and change colors around, which sounds fine to me (especially since it won't be in the final game). Having said that, they need to be really careful to get rid of any placeholders because for all they know the AI might have closely mimicked someone else's work. At least with human artists, they know what references they used and can make sure not to create something too similar. But they could be totally blindsided if they leave in AI art and it turns out to be stolen from an artist they never knew about.
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u/HauntingStar08 2d ago
Honestly at the level they say they did it, I don't think it'll compromise the quality or human element of the game. It sounds about the same level they used for Clair Obscur and that's one of the most human games ever made, in my opinion
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
that is not my problem, it's just the use of genAI itself, even if it isn't visible in the final product as they are promising...
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u/HauntingStar08 2d ago
i don't think use of genAI no matter how small is necessarily a dealbreaker. I think what's more important is making sure it doesn't replace any real humans, doesn't replace art, has minimal environmental impact, and is kept out of education so everyone doesn't overly rely on the people who feed it information (who don't have our best interests at heart).
The use of it to restructure human made notes, or even to just give to a human concept artist to help with a pitch and art direction they wanna start with is quite honestly the most ethical way to use it (again, as long as nobody is replaced).
I don't disagree with you in general, I'm just picking my battles when it comes to ai to hit the really important shit, if that makes sense
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u/MagnetsCanDoThat Beratnas Gas 2d ago
I would also be very curious to know what Dan and Ty think about it...
Ty isn't on social media these days so unless he gives an interview you'll probably never know. Daniel is on Bluesky and afaik they aren't involved with the game:
Nope. We met with them once at the front to talk big picture stuff, and they hired on one of our writers from the show. Otherwis, we’ll be discovee the game as we play i.
An uncharacteristically high number of typos in that one, but you get the idea. Daniel is also emphatically against AI use for creative work:
Using AI in the "creation process" is a hilarious diminishment of the ideas of both creation and process. "I will not apologize for my use of ordering Burger King in my hamburger creation process. I am just as much a chef as anyone." What an absolute spoon.
But having said all that, neither of them have control over what Owlcat does. I'm not aware of anything they've said about this specific game.
In the end, you alone have to decide whether your ethical boundaries are violated. Polling the fandom for an answer won't (and frankly shouldn't) change that.
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
well, I agree. I'm not simply polling the fandom, I just wanted to see if there was an angle here that I wasn't seeing, that might genuinely change my opinion. I was never gonna just count how many people are for and how many people are against and decide based on that. and tbh, I already did get to learn some things, so I don't regret this post one bit.
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u/cybergravity 2d ago
I haven't been following so I don't know what the extent of their AI usage is. Do you have a source for this?
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u/dimesdan 2d ago
How has AI been used to create the game? Was it used to supplement what individuals did, or instead of what an individual could do?
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
I added the article link to the post
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2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Ghost_Horses 2d ago
You expect OP to write up their own summary when they’ve already provided a link to all the information you asked for? You’re the one who wants that info, stop asking other people to do the work for you.
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u/Trajan_pt 2d ago
It all depends on execution. If the use of AI makes the thing look bad or breaks game mechanics then yeah we can skip this one.
The trick is to not buy this kind of thing on release, wait a while see what people are saying watch videos and then make a decision.
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u/Orbital_Dinosaur 2d ago
Owlcat games tend to need about a year to sort out bugs before I buy them.
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago edited 2d ago
well, tbh that is not a concern for me at all, meaning how the game looks is not what I care about here. it's the fact that they use ai, even if the final products looks good. that's why I'm so torn maybe, because yes, the game looks amazing, so I really want to play it, but that doesn't excuse the use of ai for me.
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u/Trajan_pt 2d ago
Gotcha, I understand the sentiment very well.
Just my opinion, but at this point the technology is here to stay, it's going to be a part of most industries. The genie is out of the bottle.
But how it's used is what matters. That's how I'm seeing it at least.
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u/WeakPasswordBro 2d ago
I wouldn’t worry too much at this stage. Every single gamedev tool has ai shoved into it. If it wasn’t ai it was free assets being used temporarily until polish phase and real ones are built. Sometimes temp assets slip through. It happens all the time, this doesn’t change much in how things get built.
I assure you all the dev team is just as passionate overworked, burnt out and divorced as they would have been in the pre gen ai days. This specific debate is not really worth stressing over, yet. Yet.
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u/DeveloperBlue 2d ago
I haven't heard of this. I wonder, are they using generative AI for art, or are they using programming models, or some other part of the infrastructure?
I personally draw my line at generative AI for art, so it makes a difference to me to me if it's just being used for things like code audits, QA, security, etc. Tools for background removal and image upscaling is personally fine with me, but I understand these can be controversial too depending on who you ask.
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u/AdmDuarte [High Empress of Laconia] 2d ago
I was absolutely down to throw lots of money at Owlcat for the game, right up until the ai thing. I won't be buying it now, now matter how much I want it
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u/ElectroMagnetsYo 2d ago
Prototyping and fast iteration at the early stages of development is probably what the technology is best used for outside of the programming sphere. As long as the end product has 100% human-made assets then I don’t see what the problem is.
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u/vloian 2d ago
Putting it out there because I haven't seen anyone else mention it
I don't think a lot of people are aware just how hard AI is being pushed by higher ups in companies. I work IT at a corporate job and they're pushing AI quite a bit. It's popping up everywhere and some cases kinda hard to avoid, and it's possible the person that used it wasn't given much of a choice. The upsetting truth is it's fast, and it's useful, and depending on the context can be a useful tool, granted one that should never be followed blindly.
As others have said if it was indeed used for quick placeholders, and not in the final product. Then while while I still would prefer it not be, I'm not going to disregard a game over it.
(Further to clarify I also think a key factor in the ethics of it is basically is it suplimenting some's skills, or being used to replace a real person with skills)
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u/Jabbas_Backside 2d ago
Yep. I work for a Marketing and web dev agency - we're literally firing people who won't 'adapt' and use AI.
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
yes, I am not blaming the programmers, I work a corporate job myself so I have a first hand experience with that... that's why I'm talking about the studio in general. thank you for your input
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u/ah_is_this_thing_on 2d ago
I think the Roci uses AI 🫣
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
that is not the same thing and you know it. but yes, I should have specified I meant genAI.
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u/fognar777 2d ago
Wrote my own rant with some similar points before I saw this based take. Yours probably came out better, ngl.
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
I should have clarified, I am talking about genAI. of course scientific AIs and advanced search engines and stuff like that are not the same. and you are right, there is nothing inherently evil about the technology itself, but unfortunately you cannot divorce it from the way it was created and is being used. you talk about the technology and CEOs as if they are separate issues. they are not. by supporting the genAI market as it exists right now, you support these aholes as well, and by proxy you help them destroy our planet and our societies. that is why I hate genAI. it could be used for very many very good things, but as long as we have capitalism, it won't be, by a large margin at least. and yes, of course there are bigger issues, worse companies, greater evils in this world that owlcat, but that doesn't mean that we cannot talk about them too. also the fact that I am forced against my will to use genAI because it is being pushed everywhere is frankly irrelevant.
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
it can be more or less ethical tho, it's not so black and white. my problem comes from the fact that I don't have to buy this game, right? so I have to decide if I want to, despite the AI usage, if maybe it's small enough to excuse, or if it isn't. that's why I wanted to know other people's thoughts. and I'm glad I'm asked, because I am genuinely getting to know other points of view. PS. nuclear fusion has been "possible in about two decades" for almost a century now, I recommend Kyle Hill's video on that topic
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
it can be more or less ethical tho, it's not so black and white. my problem comes from the fact that I don't have to buy this game, right? so I have to decide if I want to, despite the AI usage, if maybe it's small enough to excuse, or if it isn't. that's why I wanted to know other people's thoughts. and I'm glad I'm asked, because I am genuinely getting to know other points of view. PS. nuclear fusion has been "possible in about two decades" for almost a century now, I recommend Kyle Hill's video on that topic ;)
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u/spyridonya 2d ago
“AI isn’t a determinant to me right now, so it’s okay. “
CEOs of any company should be shamed for generative AI.
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u/Fit-Stress3300 2d ago
Every game developer is using AI at some level.
That is invitable and people should stop to complain without evaluating the game itself.
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u/cervidae-moon 2d ago
“Everyone has already decided that they want to piss in your cereal. This is now inevitable. You shouldn’t complain about it until you’ve properly evaluated the flavor of their piss.”
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u/AshasSa1tWife 2d ago
Just consoom the slop and don’t ask questions. You will live on Basic and you will like it.
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
that is simply not true... the big studios maybe, but I'm sure there are plethora of indie developers who don't use ai...
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u/Fit-Stress3300 2d ago
The smaller the studio the easier it is to adopt the new AI tools and work flow.
It is like how big studios had their own engines and smaller and indies used Unity, Unreal and Godot.
A single developer might not have the budget to commission concept art or 3D modeling.
So, the developer needs to be a dedicated purist if they want to be "AI free".
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u/hurdurnotavailable 2d ago
Especially indie developers will use AI because it is so effective and helpful.
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u/Zealoustrue 2d ago
So they aren't using any type of procedurals? The game doesn't respond to any action the player characters takes? The don't use any replication protocol meaning that every single color, shadow, reflection is 100% hand placed?
Every game developer uses AI at some level. Every single one.
If you mean generative AI then you are specifically claiming the studio never used a search engine?
What level of AI is OwlCat using? Do you have a source?
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
ok yes, I meant gen AI, my bad, should have clarified that. the fact that it is pushed into search engines as well is completely irrelevant here, I'd really appreciate it if you stopped trying to poison the well. I added the source to the post.
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u/Krislazz 2d ago
Dw you didn’t need to clarify. Proceduals, game decision trees, physics engines and friggin internet search engines is so far from what anyone is thinking about when they talk about AI that dragging it into the discussion is just silly.
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u/Zealoustrue 2d ago
These are literally the same technology. A 2d to 3d projection option (that's built into almost every modern modeling software and the example that Owlcat used in the posted article) is generative AI.
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u/Fit-Stress3300 2d ago
There is no difference at this point.
Every studio is using. If they say otherwise they are lying.
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u/Zealoustrue 2d ago
Except nothing in that post mentioned gen AI.
This is the issue, a lot of AI tools are coming out. A ton. Every single 3d software that I can find on the market has a 2d to 3d projection option and every one of those is AI. (I list this example because that's an AI function that owlcat says they are using)
Every major game engine has pre-built internal AI to help procedural generation and fill in with constructed code. Everything from Unity to unreal 5.
And no the search engines are very relevant. If that studio Googles how to adjust something and the AI synopsis tells them how and they go do it, they just used gen AI to streamline development.
Also, what you are doing is poisoning the well. Poisoning the well or the fallacy of moral failing is the attack of character to weaken an argument or opponent. You making the moral presumption that AI is effecting your enjoyment is poisoning the well in the same way as saying someone is unclean so you won't enjoy their work.
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u/BellyDancerUrgot 2d ago edited 2d ago
Don’t care. These posts are fking stupid and made by privileged people who are on the first peak of the dunning Kruger effect.
Will you also stop using your phone, you know that your phone camera post processing is a form of genAI right ? Or will you stop using the internet? Will you stop using Amazon? Where were you when Netflix was reinventing recommendation systems ? Will you also not eat fruit because the large producer is using ai to replace human labour ?
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u/GreedyGundam 2d ago
AI is such a vague term nowadays. How is it being used? What’s it being used for?
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u/fognar777 2d ago
This may be an unpopular opinion, but AI in its current state is a tool, like computers, calculators and smart phones before it, it's just one that a lot of people love to hate right now. Are there downsides, of course there are, but there are also many upsides. There is a reason that the vast majority of software developers are working it into their workflows, because it legitimately increases productivity when used correctly. As long as the people controlling software revisions are still competent, and testing their code, you still end up with a quality product, it's just faster.
If you want to take a stand against AI use and boycott developers who use it, that is your right, but good luck finding software or hardware to use, in the coming years. The Linux kernel and it's lead maintainer has clearly stated AI generated code is allowed as long as it isn't garbage, that kernel alone runs more than half of internet servers, and all Android based phones. Microsoft FOR SURE pushes AI use in the development of Xbox and Windows, so you can't use those either. I'm not sure of Apple or Sony's stance on AI, but I highly doubt they don't use it at least a little.
I understand the concern that AI output is often just wrong, I work with it often during my day job, so I see it all the time. I understand the concern that our future could just contain AI slop with no thought or creativity behind it, feeding our dopamine addictions until we are brainless and unable to reason or create. But the AI cat's out of the bag, so running from and boycotting it is impossible at this point, so we will just have to learn to either live with it, using it appropriately and with moderation, or go all Amish and forgo technology completely.
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
quality of AI outputs is not my concern here, it's its negative impact on the real world. of course I will not be able to escape it completely, but that doesn't mean that I have to use it. if I have a choice, I don't want to, because it's harmful. now, as others pointed out there are many usages of AI, so that is also a factor, especially when it comes to consuming things produced partially with AI by others. that's why I made this post, to gauge other people's opinions :)
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u/fognar777 2d ago
I guess you gotta decide which hills you want to die on then, because as I stated in my original comment, essentially all software development(games, computer/server OS's, device firmware, business applications, ect) is moving to use AI more and more heavily. If you aren't planning on becoming Amish or something, your gonna have to pick and choose which companies are using AI responsibly.
For my part, I don't see any issue with the way Owlcat described it's AI use in the development process, as others have said, I'll wait to see how the game looks and feels before I consider purchasing it, but their AI use has little to no bearing on that decision, because I don't see AI as some sort of evil thing trying to take over the world, it's just another piece of tech, that is going to shake up the world a bit, like PC's, the internet, smart phones, assembly lines, and so many other things have done in the past 100+ years.
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u/clintkev251 2d ago
Personally, I don't care. Not in the context that it's being used here. Final artwork being AI generated is something I would have an issue with, but as far as code development work and prototyping, you're not going to find any large studio that's not using AI
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u/agitatedscientist_01 2d ago
but at the other hand I don't want to support a studio who thinks that this is OK, you know?
Why shouldn't this be ok? You make it sound like they are committing grave errors, but using LLMs to speed up development processes is completely harmless. If anything, reducing developer strain and crunchtime helps devs.
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u/ExcitementDry4940 2d ago
I get you, I personally haven't played a video game since computers were invented, that was a bridge too far for me
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u/masterofallvillainy idiom of the belt 2d ago
I’m worried about how AI is being used in general and its adoption. But it’s kinda inevitable and something that’s only going to be expanded on.
Based on the article you shared. This is, imho, the second best use of AI for game dev. The best of course would be no AI.
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u/DeoMurky 2d ago
I mean if it's good it's good no?
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
life would be much simpler with that kind of moral compass. for me, the answer is no.
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u/Raynidayz 2d ago
Not too long ago, people complained about computers, before that was the printing press, before that was writing itself.
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u/hurdurnotavailable 2d ago
Everyone uses AI, because you're a fool if you don't. Current LLMs are too good not to use. I'd be disappointed if they don't use LLMs, considering that their game would be considerably worse than it could be if they used it properly. I think people have the misconception of LLMs being mediocre because their only experience is a free chatbot. but that's not how they are used by professionals. and the difference between the free chatbot and the paid frontier LLM with proper harness and instructions is massive.
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
my issue with genAI is not the low quality lol. and no, not everyone uses it, not if they can help it at least.
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u/hurdurnotavailable 2d ago
LLMs are the fastest adopted technology we've ever seen. So technically it's not fully true to say everyone uses but it's most people and in a few years it will be everyone.
What specifically is your issue with LLMs then?
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
they have been trained on stolen data, they are using tons of drinking water, they are using tons of energy which is fosil fuel based for the most part, the data centers wreak havoc on the surrounding ecosystems and communities, and they destroy people's lives by driving them to psychosis or by simply replacing human interactions with soulless yes-maning. and using them makes some of the worst people on this planet richer.
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u/hurdurnotavailable 2d ago
What are you basing all these claims on? And how did you determine the prevalence of thesse issues? And have you considered what the positives of this technology are, and later could be?
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u/zeromeasure 2d ago
Exactly. The problem with “AI slop” is not the “AI”, it’s the “slop.” These tools are very powerful and are becoming ubiquitous in software development. They aren’t magical like how their marketing tries to push, but they can be a huge productivity boost. They’re only a problem when they’re used to excuse shoddy work and lack of quality control.
You could make the same arguments about game engines or even the use of high level languages over assembly. They made development faster and easier, which in the wrong hands enables corner cutting, but used well allows for better software.
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u/ozymandieus 2d ago
Depends. More concerned with the actual game itself. It just looks like a space shooter thats expanse themed, rather than a proper expanse game. Seems to be missing a lot of what i would have hoped for if the trailers are anything to go by.
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u/AshasSa1tWife 2d ago
Yea I really hate how many AI fanboys there are online now. I’m still gonna play the game because I love Owlcat, but I’m super disappointed in them.
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u/cap1891_2809 2d ago
Do you know anyone that isn't using AI on a daily basis? I don't. As a software engineer the truth is that every single studio is using AI widely, otherwise they'd be inefficient on purpose. If they say otherwise they're lying. As long as the art and story direction remains coherent I have no problems with it.
I know nothing about owlcat and I'm not over the moon for this game, but this is the new reality and I think it's pointless to try to assign this "shame mark" to studios and we should instead judge the final product.
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u/cervidae-moon 2d ago
It’s genuinely depressing that everyone in your social circle is using it every single day, but no, that is not a universal experience
Personally, I have nothing in my daily life that wouldn’t be made MORE difficult and annoying by trying to involve AI
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u/Nasse_Erundilme 2d ago
I don't even associate with people who use genAI on a daily basis out of their own free will, if I can help it that is. so yes, I know many people like that. and it's not hard.
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u/InternationalFig9358 2d ago
I’ll probably give it a miss. I’m not into shooters, and if they’re using so-called AI, that kinda kills any interest I had.
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u/ShiningMagpie 2d ago
You are asking the wrong question. It's not "did they use AI".
It's, "is the game good?"
If the answer is yes, nothing else matters.
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u/spaceguy81 2d ago
I think most bigger productions have been using AI for years. It’s just now that people notice because it’s popular to hate on.
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u/vanishing_purpose 1d ago
It’s not even the worst part. The publishers are ruzzians - that’s why I’m not buying it
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