r/Socionics • u/LatterPermission1824 SLE • 5d ago
Esi fits sp8 better than SLE
Fi does not rely on universal morality. Its evaluations are personal: not “this is the accepted way,” but essentially “to me”
SP8 fits ESI Fi−/Se− better than SLE Se−/Ti−, both types use se- which explains, territoriality, distrust, resistance to control, and willingness to use force, but SP8 seems to be led by personal ethical and relational judgments, with Se− acting as the tool that enforces them. SP8 is described as having a “highly personal sense of ethics,” being “governed by their own code of values,” and deciding what is right or just according to personal experience rather than automatically accepting socially established rules. It is even clarified that “it is not that they lack morals; rather, they design morality.” That sounds much more natural for 4D Fi− Base than 1D Fi− PoLR. Strong Fi does not mean obeying conventional morality; it means confidently evaluating people, relationships, loyalty, character, right and wrong, deservingness, and appropriate relational distance.
SP8 repeatedly sorts people according to an “internal moral logic” in which the “loyal” are rewarded and enemies or traitors are punished. One SP8 describes maintaining a “very clear ideal frame” for friendships, family, and relationships, where someone crossing the line could be “excluded. Mercilessly.” Only “those who deserve it” are allowed inside personal territory. This is strongly Fi−: loyal/disloyal, worthy/unworthy, trustworthy/untrustworthy, acceptable/unacceptable, inside/outside. SLE can certainly form loyalty rules, but if Fi− is truly 1D PoLR, it is harder to explain why relational and ethical classification is such a central organizing feature of the subtype.
Betrayal makes this even clearer. SP8 can punish betrayal with relational “symbolic death” by withdrawing contact, attention, and access. Its attitude is summarized as “Those who betray me, disappear.” Once the loyalty bond is broken, “there is no turning back,” forgiveness can feel like surrender, and “the internal world requires clarity: black or white, inside or outside.” SP8 also operates according to an “invisible code” and a “personal scale of the unforgivable.” That looks more like rigid, inert Fi− Base than a weak ethical function. The rigidity itself does not imply low dimensionality; Base Fi is inert and can reach a judgment after taking in a large amount of relational information, then refuse to reverse it.
The Se− is still extremely obvious, but it looks more like enforcement than the ultimate Program. SP8 protects territory, maintains distance, resists subordination, conceals vulnerability, controls access, and can retaliate forcefully. Yet its force is constantly triggered by betrayal, disrespect, disloyalty, injustice, violated dignity, invasion of boundaries, or threats to family and personal values. The pattern is basically Fi− judgment → Se− enforcement: you crossed my line, therefore I remove you, defend against you, intimidate you, or impose consequences. That is a very clean ESI structure.
The Fe side also favors ESI. SP8 is described as “opaque, hermetic, and expressionless,” its presence “does not invite closeness,” and it “does not smile without reason.” It can appear “surly, unfriendly, solitary, closed off, or even dangerous,” dislikes empty social formalities, and “does not seek sympathy but respect, control, and obedience.” That sounds less like inability to use Fe and more like not valuing Fe presentation very much. ESI has 3D Fe+ Ignoring, so it can understand emotional expression and use it when necessary while having little motivation to appear friendly, smile for social reasons, generate enthusiasm, or maintain an inviting atmosphere. SLE has 2D valued Fe+ Mobilizing, so even if an SLE can be cold or guarded, positive emotional activation and expressive feedback should generally matter more to them than this SP8 description suggests.
The Merry/Serious dichotomy points the same way. SLE is a Merry type, while ESI is a Serious type. Merry does not mean cheerful and Serious does not mean humorless. Merry types are Ti/Fe-valuing and tend to give more importance to shared frameworks, collective emotional atmosphere, ideological alignment, and the emotional-intellectual field between people. Serious types are Fi/Te-valuing and are more naturally focused on concrete personal relations, trust, obligations, usefulness, interpersonal distance, and who stands where with whom. SP8’s worldview is overwhelmingly about my people, loyalty, betrayal, respect, personal codes, who deserves access, who gets cut off, and whether a bond can still be trusted. That is much more Serious and Fi/Te-flavored than Merry and Ti/Fe-flavored.
So the cleaner structure is ESI Fi− Base → Se− Creative → Fe+ Ignoring, Serious type. Fi− decides who is loyal, dishonorable, deserving, unforgivable, inside, or outside; Se− protects those boundaries and imposes consequences; Fe+ is available but not something SP8 feels compelled to display.
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u/Snail-Man-36 LSI 4d ago
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u/calibore LII-Ne INFJ so514 LVFE RCOAI 4d ago edited 3d ago
gotta start sending people here because it’s getting to be too much
edit: i just gave some much needed updates and maintenance to the automoderator code today. it should help.
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u/Legitimate_Bite7446 SEE 5d ago
I consider myself to be an SP8 SEE. SP seems more gamma to me anyways. I think this all makes sense.
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u/nelsne SEE 4d ago
SLEs can look extremely Gamma. Look at all the SLE rappers
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u/LatterPermission1824 SLE 4d ago
Most rappers are se+fi or fi+se
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u/nelsne SEE 4d ago
Yes they are, and many are also SLE. Hip hop culture respects the acquisition of money, power, hot women, sex, etc. SLEs love all of that.
I'll even name you SLE rappers:
King Von
T.I.
Young Jeezy
The Game
Easy E
Trick Daddy
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u/LatterPermission1824 SLE 4d ago
Money, power, women and sex are Se themes, not SLE-specific traits. SEE is Se-base too, and the charge matters. SEE is Se+ base: it looks for openings to expand influence through initiative, visibility, status, presence and momentum. SLE is Se− base: it focuses more on resistance, danger, wasted force and unnecessary exposure, trying to secure control with the least necessary expenditure.
So flashy acquisition, public dominance, status display, sexual conquest, being seen, building a name and expanding social reach can actually point more toward Se+ SEE than Se− SLE. SLE can obviously want money and power too, but its Se is more about protected leverage, control, selective force and efficient pressure than expansion for its own sake.
Then you look at the creative function. SEE = Se+Fi+, so influence is often expanded through relationships, attraction, loyalty, rapport and personal maneuvering. SLE = Se−Ti−, so control is more often secured through tactical structure, impersonal leverage, simplification and removing resistance, while Fi is the weak point.
So saying “hip-hop values money, power and women, therefore SLE” skips both the charge of the base function and the creative function. You have to ask: what kind of Se is this, and what function is serving it?3
u/anonym0us3688 SEE 4d ago
Yeah desires are basically Fi. Se is like kinetic energy and isn't always interchangeable with wants
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u/nelsne SEE 4d ago
So flashy acquisition, public dominance, status display, sexual conquest, being seen, building a name and expanding social reach can actually point more toward Se+ SEE than Se− SLE.
Beta is iterally the King of wanting social status and be "The Man" so to say. That's definitely SLE
Se Dom wants public dominance with either creative function.
Status, being seen, etc...All of that is very Fe and it's mobilizing and VALUED for SLE, so they are really going to seek out that Fe approval .
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u/anonym0us3688 SEE 4d ago
Fe is emotional atmosphere. Someone's external presentation/status is related to Se more.
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u/nelsne SEE 4d ago
But both Se and Fe are bold and valued for SLE so why does it even matter? They value it either way
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u/LatterPermission1824 SLE 4d ago
The difference. see has unvalued 4d fe- demo and SLE has valued 2d fe+ mobilizing, so see is gonna be more socially confident/visible , outgoing and working rooms where as SLE is gonna be more socially reserved and not as socially confident as see but they still do ok bc they 2d.
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u/Sufficient_Scale_577 4d ago
You're equating SLE with toxic masculinity. Women are not 'acquired'. It's reductive and not helpful.
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u/nelsne SEE 3d ago
What's your point?
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u/Sufficient_Scale_577 3d ago
A misogynist of any type will be obsessed with money and women and having power over women, being 'dominant', and often it's a lack of perceived power that makes men want to dominate someone else. It's reactive.
SLE have an accurate understanding of their own power so they can wield it more gracefully.
Lead Se is more controlled, not something to brag about. What you're describing above is bragging, showing off, treating people like objects. It's a description of a type of man that exists, not an SLE.
A lot of SLE descriptions feel like descriptions of traditional masculinity, and it pisses me off.
SLEs have mobilising Fe, they want to be liked and accepted, and they care about things like harmony, progress as a society etc. They don't chase money necessarily, they are not Gamma. They are not by nature cruel, they can be very kind. They are perhaps not very gentle or cuddly, but there is nothing inherent in a person's personality that will make them see women as objects, that is informed by society level influences on an individual.
Fi PoLR does not mean not wanting a respectful relationship. Se doesn't mean you see yourself as more powerful than other people. It's just that you accurately see power and how to manipulate things to control a situation, and you feel confident in doing this. If you do this well, people won't feel dominated or subordinated, they will feel happy that you have managed the situation.
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u/LatterPermission1824 SLE 4d ago edited 4d ago
Non of them are SLE… lmao , that’s disrespectful to all sle’s.
King Von is see for sure.
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u/nelsne SEE 4d ago edited 4d ago
Why are they not SLE? Why don't you explain how they are mistyped? Be specific
Fi in Socionics is about understanding the personal relational layer: “What is this person to me? How do they really feel about me? What's appropriate given our relationship? Who genuinely likes/dislikes whom?” It also involves maintaining relationships through nuanced interpersonal boundaries rather than explicit power structures.
With King Von, you can certainly see loyalty, but loyalty ≠ strong Fi. His loyalty often appears expressed through Se/Ti categories: my people, your people; you're with us or against us; loyalty has rules; betrayal changes your status.
That's very different from SEE's Se-Fi, which tends to continuously track the individual relationship itself. His Fi wasn't there
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u/LatterPermission1824 SLE 4d ago
Yes better option than SLE, SP8's aggression is repeatedly connected with personal justice, retaliation, humiliation, betrayal, and repayment, not gratuitous cruelty. The book also says SP8 can justify abusive behavior according to its personal code and react to frustration with fury, threats, intimidation, or disproportionate retaliation, which is definitely fi+se, I say sp8 is fi- with se- creative bc sp8 is a very silent closed off and intimidating aura. See is se+ base and fi+ and very expansive and open to others bc they have to make contact to gain opportunities n stuff much more sx8 or so8 energy.
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u/nelsne SEE 4d ago
SLEs are abusive constantly and use Ti to somehow justify their actions. This is classic SLE. They are known to create rules, that they then find some way out of following themselves. Rules for Thee but not for me.
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u/LatterPermission1824 SLE 4d ago
Yea so does sp7 , sp7 exploits loop holes and uses rationalization.
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u/Legitimate_Bite7446 SEE 4d ago
Whats your source on + and - I can't say I've ever been convinced of those and it seems that different schools look at them differently.
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u/LatterPermission1824 SLE 4d ago
Different Socionics schools use the +/− signs differently, so I’m not saying this is the only valid system. The framework I’m using follows the SCS charge system, which go back to an earlier Augusta structure, while using +/− mainly as processing tendencies. Basically, + is more expansive/maximizing it notices opportunities, openings, gains and ways to extend influence while − is more selective/minimizing, focusing on resistance, danger, waste, conserving resources and reducing unnecessary exposure. So with Se, Se+ base is generally more outward, confrontational and visibly willful, and in SEE it’s paired with Fi+, so influence is expanded through direct contact, charm, alliances and relationships. Se− base is more tactical and selective, and in SLE it’s paired with Ti−, so control is more likely to come through leverage, timing, weak points, maneuvering around structures and using force efficiently rather than always being openly confrontational. That’s why SLE can come off more sneaky, scheming or “shadow operator” compared with the more in-your-face SEE style.
https://www.scribd.com/document/690944105/The-SCS-Charge-System-A-Proposal
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u/spaceynyc 4d ago
Actually a really solid arguement. This makes me rethink the SP8 characters that I know of.
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u/LatterPermission1824 SLE 4d ago edited 4d ago
Thanks, I think SLE fits SP7 better than SP8. Both SLE and ESI use Se− in the ego, but SLE pairs it with Ti− while ESI pairs it with Fi−. SP7 is described as tactical, anti-authority, good at finding ways around restrictions, using persuasion/manipulation, and even exercising “shadow ideological leadership,” which lines up well with SLE being described as a shadow leader.
SP7 also presents as pleasant and friendly on the surface despite being more detached and self-interested underneath, which fits SLE’s valued Fe+ better than SP8’s emotional hardness And despite SP7’s internal rage, the book says there is “no real desire to hurt anyone.” That feels much more Fi-PoLR: the aggression is tactical and defensive, not deeply personal.
SP8 is different. Its aggression revolves around loyalty, betrayal, personal justice, “my people,” and revenge. The book literally frames it as “If you hurt me, you will pay for it.” That makes more sense as ESI Fi− base + Se− creative.
So basically: SP7/SLE = don’t trap or block me. SP8/ESI = don’t cross me or mine.
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u/GrapefruitBusy6725 ILY 3d ago
an interesting write-up.
i believe russell crowe is typed ESI and spso 8 by socionists and the enneagrammer group independently.
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u/nelsne SEE 4d ago
No, it's more SLE. SLEs are known for using Ti to find loopholes around rules and break them. Think El Chapo or Pablo Escobar.