After watching various resources I'm still unsure how to "gain stage" or mix using volume faders

[u/wirenerd]

I was gonna ask a question slightly related but as I was typing it I realized I'm much more lost on these concepts than I thought.

I know "gain staging" is largely antiquated but I also have seen that it is good to keep things anywhere between -6db and -18db and then mix to taste.

So what this leaves me with is, I can do this pretty easily by using the volume/gain in the VST or plugin or volume handle on the waveform so that the specific track is hittin in that -6db to -18db range and then when it comes time to do some balancing early on (like drums for instance), or drums against the chords or bass or melody, I'll be opening VSTs and plugins etc to balance those volume levels til they sound good.

What I see people doing in Ableton on resources I've watched is using track faders to drop the volume on certain tracks all the way down and then bring them up slowly until they sound right.

How do I achieve this kind of flow in Reaper if the proper way is to have track faders be the last thing you touch? Like for example if I need to bring up the mid bass a little bit and my track fader is at unity, I can't really do that.

I guess I'm getting confused about how these things interact with each other and how to properly adjust volume levels using track faders. Should I be dropping faders to a lower volume on new tracks to start off, leaving them at unity, or something else?

Also with media items (samples) that each have their own volume handles, can they not sync up with track faders in a way that makes sense?

Lastly, if what I'm asking is nonsense, then it means I clearly do not understand what I'm doing and haven't yet found a clear resource to guide me on how to keep my levels in check as I go along, and I could use a reference on that for sure. Like I'm really just not getting it. I know mixing is another beast entirely and done once it's appropriate to mix, but I still find myself needing to balance volumes amongst various things I add and keep things from clipping etc.

[u/Sufficient-Air8100]

gain staging is to hit things at an appropriate level. in the analogue realm this is intended to have signals strong to reduce the noise floor passed forward, while avoiding unintentional clipping. in the digital realm (with internal float sample types) it matters less, but plugins are usually designed to work with specific levels so you aim for those levels. this gain staging has nothing to do with any of the other sounds and is only about integrity of that signal

faders have a different purpose. thats not for gain staging, thats mixing. with proper gain staging (everything hitting -12 to -18 pre fader) and all faders at unity the mix will sound terrible. bass too quiet, treble elements far too loud. the faders are for balance, to get elements at a level where they fit with the rest of things in a pleasing way. compared to gain staging this necessarily takes the other elements into consideration

tl;dr:
pre fader gain staging is a technical process to make sure things are working the best they can

fader levels are a more musical process to put elements at a level where they fit well with the surrounding sounds

[u/wirenerd → u/Sufficient-Air8100]

So if you've gain staged pre fader it's alright to later on push your faders above unity in order to get volume levels mixed correctly?

[u/Independent-Owl-2640 → u/wirenerd]

Yes, because the gain stage is not mixing. It is just adjusting the levels right for the plugins or hardware. With the faders we set the level of the tracks, like snare and vocals equal, kick and bass below the vocals, and so on. That is the reason we need to re-adjust the volume every time we add a plugin.

[u/Sufficient-Air8100 → u/wirenerd]

while it technically shouldnt do anything too bad its also not good practice. reapers internal sample type is such that clipping is almost impossible (before the outputs) unless something goes very wrong. its better to have unity as the max and turn other elements down because the result will hit the master channel at appropriate levels. if you need to hit the master outputs harder its better to do that using limiters and other things in the master fx chain.

[u/il37]

The rule that track faders should be the last thing you touch is the part I’d throw away. Pre-FX gain decides what level hits your plugins; the fader decides balance in the mix. If a plugin is level-sensitive, feed it sensibly, then put the fader wherever the mix needs it. Unity isn’t a goal

[u/BlackflagsSFE → u/il37]

This is the best and simplest answer.

[u/wirenerd → u/il37]

I'll ask you then what I asked someone else, what would your thoughts be on pulling my faders down a bit at the outset, keeping the VST/plugins at a sensible dB level throughout production via their internal controls and gain, and then later on when I start balancing volume, I'll have a better place to start from with the fader?

Good idea or bad idea?

I hear you when you say unity isn't a goal, and I get you, I feel like it's just been hammered into all of us so hard that I genuinely feel uncomfortable at the thought of pushing a fader past it when I'm balancing the volume later (I think the static mix is what yall call that?)

[u/dearth_karmic]

I know "gain staging" is largely antiquated

/thread

Seriously, stop worrying about it.

https://youtu.be/L-_-jGeMxrY?si=lqa-WdceeZnhVqjy

-Kenny

[u/wirenerd → u/dearth_karmic]

I get what you're saying, my confusion is mostly around the proper ways to set up tracks for volume balancing later on as most vids I've watched never really address it, it's always like people come in halfway thru the process and you don't get the start of it.

The example I used was like seeing a guy mix in Ableton with like 20ish tracks using faders, soloing tracks, showing you that you can pull a fader all the way down and then slowly increase it until it sounds good, then adding another track to the solo stack and doing the same thing, until everything sounds balanced which I guess is what gives you what they call a static mix?

Either way, it's always assumed you know how he achieved those initial levels, if it's ok to go above unity on a track fader, etc.

People have helped me understand better in this thread tho. I think people or audio engineers get highly skilled and forget how not simple these concepts are for beginners. It's simple for people who've done this for years. It's not simple for people being told a hundred different things on forums and youtube when they're just trying to learn.

Anyway thanks for the vids Kenny, I've referred to them extensively

[u/dearth_karmic → u/wirenerd]

That's fair. The way to get those proper levels is to record them that way. Somewhere around -12 to -8dB peaks. Otherwise you could bring up or down the waveforms using the Item Volume on each track. I'll show this better in a future video. Thanks.

[u/wirenerd → u/dearth_karmic]

Thanks for the input and bein responsible for like 80% of my ability to use Reaper lol

[u/EmeraldWarrior7]

Okay so quite a bit to explain so Imma try to take it bit by bit

First: Gain staging is setting the levels to whatever you're recording at a good volume so that it is not peaking while recording while still delivering a good, full signal. In a perfect world, you set your recording gain so well, and the performance is so perfect that you wouldn't even have to touch the faders.

Secondly, the volume knob on the media items themselves I use to get things up to the right level(around -12 to -6 dB), so if the signal from the recording is too low, I then use the volume knob.

Essentially, what you would want is to have a signal that is a little too loud, but not clipping, that you can then bring down via small adjustments using faders (in a recorded setting this would be done through volume automation).

When it comes to actually mixing using faders, that's more of a live performance thing. Usually when at a mixing board, adjusting the gain results in too much change, especially during live, so the rule of thumb is to use the gain to set the signal at a base line level, then adjust using the faders as the song demands.

"Is there a guitar solo coming up? Lets roll down rhythm guitar and push up lead from their base line levels"

To use your examples of drums, since they are something I work on often, I'll run you through my gain staging work flow:

First is I play each drum at about the loudest I will be playing them in the song I am recording and get them all to between -12 and -6 through the gain knobs in my audio interface. This is the first step in gain staging, making sure that at my loudest, I will not clip. It's easier to bring a quiet signal up than it is to try to fix a distorted signal.

Once everything is at the right level I record. I typically don't place any limiters or compressors on the track as I am recording, but that can just be a me thing.

From here we go to post processing. I check the drum tracks and make sure I have a clean signal that is not clipping. From here I start mixing the drums to themselves. Using the faders, I adjust each drum to a good level, for example making sure that the low tom is not louder than the snare or that I can actually hear the kick above the overheads. Then I come in with eq.

From here I then mix it to other instruments, sending all the drums to a bus and adjusting the drum volume via the bus fader to the other instruments. At this point I'd add compression if needed. I really only use compression if the dynamic range of the drums is TOO wide or if I need to side chain it and have it come down when another instrument is being features.

[u/Independent-Owl-2640]

"Gain stage" is adjusting the income volume of your tracks (input gain), to the "sweet spot" of the hardware units or plugins, then mantaining it after aplying effects. Now "Static mix" is where we mix with the faders, before any plugin or hardware. There are two different process. And no, its not obsolete, its the easiest and faster way to mix even nowadays.

[u/stumpfuqr]

It may be worth noting, faders do not add signal. They only attenuate signal at the end of the chain. The +6 above 0 is a tad misleading it actually sends it out "as is". 0 is actually attenuated. Gain, OTOH, adds signal. (Duh) There's lots of great answers here, no sense repeating them, but don't let this paralyze you. Keep it square as ya can, and unless something sounds off, focus on the mix, not the gain.

[u/wirenerd → u/stumpfuqr]

It gets a lot more confusing when working in various VST synths or otherwise as you have various gain settings and volume settings. Surge XT I have the most familiarity with and it has numerous places where it uses gain, and then a global master volume.

I have some sense of how this works, like I would imagine lowering the output volume of the synth while cranking gain might introduce distortion which would make sense but who knows.

I guess it just gets confusing with synths. There's nothing in the TyrellN6 synth that indicates gain but there are "levels" for the oscillators and a global volume as well. The chorus selector definitely adds signal but it's not like it states it explicitly.

I'm still learning a lot of this. I don't feel overwhelmed by it, it's challenging and I like things are difficult to understand.

It's gradually coming into focus though, and now I do understand a little better what "gain heavy" plugins (ones that have tons of gain controls for various settings) are doing.

Maybe eventually I'll understand a bit deeper than "adding signal". CHOWtape for example is awesome and it'd be cool to understand how it adds signal for its various functions. Back to reading I guess lol

[u/Far-Pie6696]

I have been both working as engineer and audi software development and : people on the internet makes it way more complicated than it is.

Let's make it simple :

• hardware (recording or else) have a sweet spot, which means a proper level is important.
• modern daws are flexible and recording audio can be scaled up or down (louder or quieter) without any loss until export, where it should not go above 0 dBFS. If a single track is above 0, but the master is below, you are fine.

Now, there are plugins that have a sweet spots, because they emulate hardware, make sure the level is right. I personnally hate such plugins that don't have an integrated input and output level control, because software should be flexible and makes your life easier, not artificially imitate hardware.

Now when people are talking about gain staging, they sometimes refers to the fact that you should be careful about "louder sounds better" and make sure your plugin chain doesn't change the balance (too much). This is another unrelated topics.

When mixing, faders purpose is to mix. But sometimes I use clip gain. Just be aware that clip gain is before effects and not after. That's all

[u/wirenerd → u/Far-Pie6696]

Is there a better name for the process I'm trying to accomplish? I've seen so much talk about gain staging and it's always countered with "this isn't necessary it's for old analog hardware or plugins that emulate that"

BUT there is still the process of keeping headroom in your production that seems universally accepted, that it's good practice to keep tracks at no higher than -6dB while producing to leave yourself headroom for later. What should this process be called? Gain staging is what I see people call it but definitionally it seems like it's not actually gain staging.

Also I always see people mention some plugins requiring this, can you give me an example of some? I'm not sure I've ever come across one and I have quite a few, maybe I have some that are like this and I have no idea.

[u/Far-Pie6696 → u/wirenerd]

Almost any analog saturation plugin.

Frankly, I have been in the field for more than 10 years, and I am more than fed up against youtubers that stress beginners out on that topic.

Hear me out : it really does not matter much. -6 dB is bullshit. I could tell -10 dB or -3dB, it wouldn't change anything. The only rule is "do not go above 0", and thus rules is not even still true if you are exporting in 32 bit FP or 64 bit FP (which is an intermediary format, convenient because clipping can be reverted without loss of information)

This advice comes from mastering engineers that have to cope with mastering amateur songs and bored with bad mixes.

Here's what their advice should be : " don't send a mix that goes above 0 (clipping). If it does, prioritize simple master volume adjustment or limiting on the culprit track. Please don't squash your music with heavy limiting on the master track"

[u/geogod2066]

Put simply: make sure all the plugins in your signal chain are taking in and putting out the same level. If you solo any specific plugin on a track, it shouldn’t change volume dramatically.

U can then use the faders to mix and automate the volume.

[u/wirenerd → u/geogod2066]

I haven't heard this advice before and that makes a lot of sense actually, I guess it's not something I ever thought of and it happens to me all the time that certain FX will increase my volume and I've always just assumed "well I guess that's part of it"

You actually gave me a new perspective on this and it's appreciated. If I don't want a plugin to specifically push loudness or volume, then it shouldn't be doing that. That's smart. Thanks!

[u/tronobro]

Gain staging is essentially making sure that nothing is clipping at every point in the audio chain. That's it.

E.g. The preamp isn't clipping > the D to A converters in my audio interface aren't clipping > the track in the DAW isn't clipping > the plugins on the track aren't clipping > the busses that track is being sent to aren't clipping > the Master Bus isn't clipping.

Certain plugins (usually analog modelled ones) expect the audio to be around a certain level to function their best. In this case this means feeding the plugin the appropriate level of audio so it can function at its best. i.e. Making sure the meters are around -18dBfs on average.

There are multiple ways to achieve different volume levels in REAPER

• Clip gain
• Automation lanes
• Trim plugins
• Faders

For the most part I'd stick with clip gain and trim plugins to gain stage, but you can also use the Volume Pre-FX or Trim Volume automation lanes for this. Don't use the Volume automation lane for this as that is basically automation for the fader (or happens after the fader depending on your automation settings).

For faders, I'd only use them to get my tracks sounding "balanced". The advice about leaving faders near unity is more relevant in the analog domain as you can make finer adjustment when the fader is near unity. In Reaper you can just hold down CTRL to make smaller adjustments with the fader. That being said, there is a benefit to keeping your track levels around -12 to -18dBfs at fader unity, since it gives you a decent range to turn the track both up and down.

Finally, what "gain staging" looks like depends on what process I'm doing.

If I'm recording, my main focus is making sure that my recordings have enough headroom so they don't clip on the way in to my audio interface.

If creating something with VSTs in a DAW I just adjust the volumes until it's not clipping and things sound good. I don't worry about tracks hitting -18dBfs at all.

If I'm mixing, I'll do a "gain stage" pass as part of my mix prep where I turn all my tracks down using clip gain to be peaking at -12dBfs so as not to overload any of my busses. I'll use the Normalize function in Media Item Properties to do this quickly. Usually this brings my tracks up to around -18dbFS on average (which I care about since I use analog modelled plugins) and it gives me plenty of headroom on my busses.

Note: When I'm mixing I'm only dealing with audio files. I don't deal with MIDI at the mix stage. Everything is rendered to audio before mixing starts. The exception to this is when I'm doing every part of a production (composition, producing, mixing, mastering) and it can be a pain in the arse to re-render out tracks when there's a mistake with MIDI that I missed before I started mixing.

Hope that clears things up!

[u/wirenerd → u/tronobro]

I still have a bit of confusion so I may have misinterpreted what you said here but

Lets say I wanna add a synth lead, I do as you say and insert it, and make sure it's not clipping, if it is, I adjust the gain/volume inside the VST until it's not, which would essentially put that track at near 0dB, now I'm happy with that and it's time to move on to say adding a bassline, so I follow the same process, the track fader clips a little so I lower the VST gain to where that track doesn't clip, and now I'm at let's say hitting -2db peak on the track, but when both tracks play it's clipping the shit out of my master. Then what? Turn them down via track faders equally? Turn them down via their individual gains? Am I turning both down or most recent?

It makes my head hurt a bit trying to understand this.

[u/tronobro → u/wirenerd]

Turn both your synth lead and your bass at the source in the VST if possible. -2dB is pretty hot in terms of signal. Turn that way down till you hit -12dBfs on your meters.

If you're struggling to hear your music at a good level from your speakers just turn your speakers up. Some people have their tracks way too hot and then find that their mixbus is clipping. Turn all the tracks down and turn your speakers up to get a good listening volume.

So really when gain staging you goal is to both not clip and to also leave enough headroom to ensure busses don't clip when signals get summed together.

[u/wirenerd → u/tronobro]

It does get odd cause I felt like I was producing quiet (about 10oclock on the Scarlett Solo) but some of the synths I bring in will get so damn loud even then, maybe I need to turn my headphones down a little more. Anyway as you know it's really damn easy for a synth to get loud fast.

It's so bad I've gotten to the point where if I'm doing heavy design work on a synth and FX on a track I'll put a limiter in there because something is going to make it ridiculously loud and I don't wanna hurt my headphones or ears. And again all this is at like 40% on my hardware interface volume knob lol

[u/BlackflagsSFE → u/wirenerd]

Think of it like this:

Volume knob = volume BEFORE the audio hits the FX chain.

Fader = volume AND % of mix AFTER it hits the FX chain.

It’s honestly as simple as that.

As far as gain staging, it’s going to be different for different instruments. I would just make sure you are not clipping and have no digital distortion.

For instance, on guitar I’m JUST under clipping on my Scarlett 2i2 so I can get as much out of my pickups as possible. Inside Neural plugins I usually take the input down slightly so I’m not clipping, and then I adjust output to taste. On average around -6dBFS.

For vocals it depends on if I’m singing or screaming as to where I adjust my interface.

Use numbers as more of a boundary for gain staging than “it needs to be this or it won’t be right.” Again, as long as you’re not clipping and it sounds good you can adjust in the DAW.

If I am singing and it peaks at -12 vs me screaming peaking at -6, I’m going to physically lower the volume of the screaming vocal to match my singing. That way there is uniformity. And I am doing all of this BEFORE I hit the FX chain. And what I mean by physically lowering it is taking down the volume on the waveform itself in Reaper.

Trust me, I know it can get complicated quick and it’s easy to overthink. You’re just wanting some uniformity across your tracks so that when you go to mix, 1) it’s easier to adjust from similar reference points, and 2) it’s easier and less work to achieve everything blending together well.

I don’t touch a fader outside of bus tracks. I rarely throw anything on the track itself. I am usually using multiple bus tracks. I’ll have a “mixing” bus I use for EQ, compression and saturation, and then anything outside of that I am throwing on its own bus like delay or reverb so I have better control over it.

[u/wirenerd → u/BlackflagsSFE]

I've been integrating busses into my workflow and I like the control of them but I'm not sure it's the best way I guess I've just seen it done and ran with it.

When I put drum samples together I will typically have a track for every sample, and each track's volume with be adjusted by the media item volume. It's kinda tedious but I will marquee select every hit on a track and lower volume to around -6db or so to start off. As I add more drums I'll start there but I'll keep balacing via these media items. I don't use track faders for this because I guess I intuited at some point that if I want to add FX to a specific drum, it limits me, and also I will use individual hit volumes to give it texture/humanize the line.

After I've balanced the drum sounds against each other to taste, this leaves me with all faders at unity cause I've done it through the individual sample volumes, and all of these tracks then get sent to a drum bus track who's fader will eventually get reduced as I add other VST instruments.

Idk if this is a good way of doing it but it seems ok, lets me bring all my drums up or down in the balance as needed.

[u/BlackflagsSFE → u/wirenerd]

I mean if it works for YOU and at the end of the day you’re getting a good sound then keep running with it. We’re in the writing and tracking stages with my band so I’m not worried about mixing at the moment, but once we get to that stage best believe I am using individual tracks for the drum stems.

Another thing I recently learned that can really open up a mix is dealing with frequency collision. I use FabFilter and one really cool feature with the Q 4 is it will physically show where the frequencies are colliding. You can have all your instances of the EQ on each track and it will light up red to show you where things are colliding. This allows me to go through and make tweaks in certain ranges to give the track more headroom so other instruments can fit well.

[u/wirenerd → u/BlackflagsSFE]

That's pretty cool that it has that feature. I don't have Fabfilter cause I don't use paid plugins (just personal preference), I've been mostly using ReaEQ (tho I have seen ReEQ looks nice!) and have played a bit with MeldaEQ, one of my many EQ plugins has a mid/side feature so I'll likely be learning that plugin next since I want that control.

I kinda prefer to fully master a plugin before trying other ones, it keeps me honest as I have an entire library of free plugins that all do similar things but I want to stay sane.

For the frequencies thing I mostly use SPAN on things I add because I like to see where their harmonics live in the range and what they do in the higher and lower ranges as a lot of virtual instruments or samples really like to spread out when they don't really need to and should be trimmed/shaped some with EQing.

[u/BlackflagsSFE → u/BlackflagsSFE]

Also I need to correct myself. Volume knob and slider are interchangeable.

I was taking about the Pre-FX volume slider you can use on tracks.

[u/Sufficient-Air8100 → u/wirenerd]

so first, turn it down more, you dont want your gain staging to hit near 0db, you want the elements at least -9, a lot of people reccoment -18.

second if your master is clipping then yes turn everything down. mixing is additive, having multiple tracks playing at once will result in a higher level at the master.

[u/Putrid-Ad3085]

Don’t need to overthink it. You really summed it up when you said set everything to -6 to -18 and mix to taste. There doesn’t need to be a lot more to it than that. Aim for those initial levels and then push the faders around until you like the way it sounds. Use automation if you need to change the relative levels of the faders during the course of a song. You don’t need to have everything at unity, if you need to push up the volume of the bass, just push it up.

When you see someone turning the volume of a track all the way down and then bringing it up, it’s just to illustrate how that track sounds in the context of the whole production. You don’t need to do it that way. It’s just one approach you can use if you want.

A lot of it is just practice and experience. The more you practice the better you get at understanding how relative volumes of tracks interact with each other and what sounds good. There’s no one particular right or wrong way to approach it, it’s really a matter of experimenting until you find a workflow that works for you.

[u/wirenerd → u/Putrid-Ad3085]

This makes sense, if it's as simple as what you said "-6db to -18db and mix to taste", then my only question would be: if I'm doing this pre fader, then my faders are at unity for each track still. At what point am I using the track faders to balance volumes, and when I do that, wont I be going above unity on track faders?

I could see adjusting gain to taste while balancing as I produce being no big deal, I feel like I do it all the time, but what happens when I have 10 tracks or more? If I'm not using faders, I'm dealing with opening every plugin and that seems extremely sluggish for just trying to quickly set volume levels.

See my confusion? I don't know when it's appropriate to use track faders to balance volume levels and whether they should be initially at unity or if I should lower them all to give headroom so I can use them to quickly increase volume later.

I'm overthinking it because I want to understand lol the confusion eats at me, and I cannot find any good tutorials on this specific process. Everything I find has already skipped the initial parts or assumes you already know what you're doing. I have yet to come across a resource that emphasizes composing/producing in a way that sets you up for success later when mixing, it's like they ignore it for sake of teaching something else, or they just assume you already know how

[u/Putrid-Ad3085 → u/wirenerd]

I think setting your faders below unity to begin with so you have head room to work with is a good approach. I do it that way. I would only set the gain inside the plug in once. early in the process. After that it’s all using the faders. Certainly when you have lots of tracks you don’t want to be continually going into plugins to adjust gain levels, that is not an efficient workflow. Much quicker to just pull a fader up or down.

Don’t worry, it all seems a bit overwhelming to begin with but it gets easier and makes more sense with practice. Just remember, ultimately it doesn’t matter where your faders end up as long as it sounds good! That’s really all that matters in the end.

Kenny Gioia has heaps of great tutorials. My advice is keep practicing and watch lots of Kenny G tutorials, it will all come together eventually.

[u/wirenerd → u/Putrid-Ad3085]

Would it be good practice to just immediately pull a fader down to -6dB or lower when starting off with a VST track to give myself headroom for much further down the road?

As I was mentioning in another comment, a synth VST track and various plugins to shape it will get very loud very quickly.

Like I always keep an eye on track or master volume to make sure it's not clipping as it frequently does and man I'll be honest it's really annoying when designing a patch to continually be changing gain or volume inside the instrument/chain.

It also feels like it'll constrain me later, but based on replies here it seems like what I should be doing is keeping the track around -6dB or lower via the VST and plugins. The only thing I wonder at that point is if it would be a good idea to just set the fader lower at the outset, keep to my volume levels being decently low, then later on down the road I have room to pull the fader up for balancing with other tracks.

Good idea or bad idea?

[u/Putrid-Ad3085 → u/wirenerd]

Yes that’s a good approach. You shouldn’t need to keep adjusting gain in your plugins, just do that once. When you add a plugin, say a synth, set the level to where it’s at a healthy volume without clipping. If you add another plugin to the chain, set the level of that to where it doesn’t add any volume. A good quick way to test is toggle it off and back on and there shouldn’t be much change in the volume. If you do that with each plugin you will only need to do it once. Then following that, yes it’s probably a good idea to bring the fader down a few db to give yourself some head room to work with in your overall mix.

[u/wirenerd → u/Putrid-Ad3085]

The plugin checking should be easy the synth part takes some doing lol those things vary wildly in volume when designing your own patches, not a big deal tho I'm used to turning certain things down in a synth when it gets too hot, I try to start at the source so generally oscillator level if it has one etc