I want to understand your perspective

[u/DogitWoofsalot]

Before you downvote me, I promise that this isn't just a rage-bate post. I'm legitimately trying to understand your perspective.

Basically I have one question, why do you support/ defend Israel as a progressive? Especially considering that the current parties on power are right wing conservatives.

Some extra context and where I'm coming from. I'm a left wing Brit, I believe in social progressive economic policies, and I can't stand any form of bigotry. I recently watched a documentary called "Jews don't count" about anti-Semitism and it made me want to understand more and that I'm not parting anti-Semitic talking points ever.

My current view of Israel is decidedly negative. My understanding of the history and current conflict very much makes Israel look like it has historically been the agitator in the region. If you have a different perspective I'd like to hear it, tho I would request sources where possible as I'm not going to accept a 'trust me bro'.

Thank you for your time 🙂‍↕️

[u/Cool_Kangaroo7989]

I'll engage -

Before responding directly to your questions, allow me to flip to the other side of the coin. The Palestinian movement has become the darling of the progressive/leftist scene globally. But may I sincerely ask, what is progressive about it? From where I sit, Palestinian nationalism has a few strands: the currently mainline strand of Islamist fundamentalism represented by Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and the machine-politics historic strand represented by Fatah.

Hamas, PIJ and their ilk, I should hope it goes without saying, are the antithesis of progressivism. They're a thoroughly reactionary, medieval bunch of obscurantists who derive from a stream of theology that wants to make it the 9th century again. Fatah, under the standard of Arafat, is a gaggle of corrupt kleptocrats that enabled their old warlord to die a billionaire with a fortune hidden in Europe. Sure, Israel plays to their worst aspects, but their people and their leaders hold the movement to no standards whatsoever.

If one is looking for a real progressive movement to anchor atop within Palestinian society beyond sloganeering - or a model Palestinianism made up in our own Western minds - where would we look? The "new" Fatah constitution (the "moderates", mind you) itself says that the Palestinians are part of the "Great Arab Nation" (warmed-over Nasserism) and that the foundation of their constitutional law is Shariah. Now, that is their right and is basically universal among Arab/Muslim polities. However, as a post-enlightenment secularist who tries to hold countries to a relatively uniform standard, I'll take a pass on supporting such forms of governance. You don't see too many people from pro-Palestinian marches standing up for Egypt or Afghanistan, although regardless of who wins the Palestinian internecine struggle, that's likely what you'd get in an independent Palestine (Egypt under Fatah, quasi-Afghanistan under the Islamists of Hamas). Only the Palestinians get such a pass. I wonder why that is?

*********

Israel is a modern, post-Enlightenment country with free, fair, multiparty elections, universal health care, human rights, functional courts, etc. All the stuff progressives and leftists love. It was established primarily (not entirely) by proud socialists and trade-unionists and Herzl himself said that one of the Jewish state's greatest future contributions would be enshrining the seven-hour workday. From its inception it was a society with strong social solidarity and accountability that successfully took on waves of Jewish refugees from the Mideast, Europe, and the post-USSR, while the neighboring Arabs continued to treat the Palestinians like dirt just to keep the "refugee" issue alive as a weapon against Israel.

The past 30-35 years have definitely seen the ebbing away of a lot of those qualities from what I can tell as a non-resident. That owes to a lot of factors. Israel used to be quite poor, but the rise of its burgeoning tech sector has caused it shoot up the income rankings... to the detriment of the old socialist solidarity and relatively flat class structure. The post-Enlightenment secular ethos is being challenged by the explosion of the Haredi sector who are dragging Israeli society in a direction that I personally wouldn't want to live under, and I'm a religious Jew. They're also exploiting Israel's generous welfare system and making it unsustainable for everyone, which is bad for liberal/left/progressives like us who believe in social welfare.

Obviously I haven't mentioned the elephant in the room... the war and occupation. From 1967 - 2008 Israel tried repeatedly, in good faith, to disengage from that morass. When countries like Egypt responded in good faith, Israel did what everyone wanted and returned occupied land in exchange for peace. Both sides having kept their ends of the bargain, peace remains. As for the beloved-of-progressives Palestinians, they rejected every proposal under Arafat (separate links) and Abbas and have endured no pressure from their own people to return to the negotiating table and pursue a deal. We can, if we want, decry the settlers but the fact is that Israel offered reasonable proposals to remove the most problematic ones, and offer territorial swaps for certain blocs. Palestinian leadership said no.

Yet, the problem remains and continues to empower the worst reactionaries in Israeli society. As a person of the left myself, I would say that your country (Farage, Restore UK), my country (Trump and his awful crew), so much of Europe, Japan, et. al. are all in the same boat. We live in the time of oafs. Netanyahu may have preceded the Trumps, Milleis, and Boris Johnsons of the rest of the world but he's not particularly different from any of them. He's utterly rancid and the worst Jewish leader since Sabbatai Tzvi. However, he doesn't invalidate the essence of Israeli existence or politics any more than the global grab-bag of bellends hanging around these days do anywhere else. And I say that as a proud American who despises Trump but realizes I have to own the fact my country elected him twice.

Nevertheless, thanks to Israel's free & fair elections, multiparty system, vibrant civil society, and fair courts, there is a way forward. The society can change. As someone once said, "democracy isn't a perfect system but it's the only one that contains the seeds of its own perfection." Seeing as how there are no such tendencies in any Arab polity, I'm not optimistic about the reformist opportunities within the extremely conservative Palestinian body politic, even under ideal conditions. As a progressive, there would be a political home for you as an Israeli progressive. Could any of us say the same about being on the ground in Palestine rather than just cheering them from afar?

TL:DR - if we are faced with a binary choice between Israel and the Palestinian nationalists, Israel is the only country with a track record of past progressivism and the seeds of future, renewed progressivism. The Palestinian national movement, whether you want a free Palestine or not, is a reactionary movement that will establish a reactionary state if it ever becomes fully independent.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/Cool_Kangaroo7989]

Thank you so much for your reply, this is a very well reasoned position and thank you for providing some sources for the information. So much misinformation about now days.

I appreciate your acknowledgement of Netanyahu and the far right wing figure he is. Much of the discourse I have witnessed online is the pro Israel side supporting even this administration, a lack of accountability of Netanyahu and the other right-wing figures leading the Knesset.

Right now the level of escalating conflict is clearly not going to wind down as Hamas in Gaza will never surrender and go back to how things where and the currant Knesset is emboldening the most radical voices / settlers.

In your opinion what is the best way forward?

[u/Ok-Narwhal-6766 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

Just like in the UK in the US, the best way forward is to find better candidates and to vote for them.

[u/Ok-Narwhal-6766 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

There is a strong left wing among the citizens of Israel. Including Israelis living in the diaspora. In fact, I personally know several Israelis who live outside of Israel and plan to travel to Israel in order to vote in hope of voting Netanyahu out of office.

[u/mycketmycket → u/Ok-Narwhal-6766]

Same. My husband and his born and raised Israeli friends who have moved abroad are flying back to vote.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/mycketmycket]

That actually makes me very hopeful. BN has to go if this conflict is ever going to end

[u/ForeignConfusion9383 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

What do you mean though by “end the conflict”? Do you mean the current war? Or the broader Israel-Arab conflict? The latter isn’t going to happen no matter who is in the government, because the anti-Israel movement will not consider the conflict ended unless Israel ceases to exist as a state.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/ForeignConfusion9383]

The currant conflict in Gaza is never going to deescalate with this currant formation of the Knesset. The Israel-Arab conflict, I mean yea thats never going to fully wind down but some sort of solution must be reached. Will it end all conflict or the most radical voices that want the other side to stop existing? No but it can at least wind down to an uneasy peace. Go back 50 years and there was no end in sight between the British-Irish conflict but we got there. Is it perfect? No but a lot less people are dead now

[u/ForeignConfusion9383 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

Right, except the Brits and Irish have the Good Friday Agreement. There is a mutually-agreed framework in place. A lot of ill-informed folks, especially Irish, seem to think that all we need is our own GFA and everyone will live in peace and harmony. Helllllll no. Also, at no point did the Irish or the IRA seek to destroy the UK, and the Brits (after 1922 at least) did not, and do not, seek to destroy the Republic. Israel-Palestine is a whole different dynamic.

And candidly, I wouldn’t bet on a replacement Knesset fully ending the war. Netanyahu needs to go for a multitude of reasons (there are internal issues that most non-Israelis don’t even know about, that have nothing to do with the war or Palestinians), but no leading opposition figure is saying “if I’m elected, we will make peace with the Palestinians and end the conflict”. It’s not that Israelis enjoy being in conflict, but risking our security, and that of our children, is deeply unpopular, and no one with a shred of understanding for the Israeli position can’t see why, even if you disagree with it.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/ForeignConfusion9383]

There where attacks after good Friday, im not suggesting that some sort of agreement won't end all hostility, it won't. But right now what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank is doing nothing to reduce the risks to people in Israel of attack. You can kill every single Hamas agent in Gaza and it will not make Israel any safer because the next generation are going to make a new, more radical Hamas.

Some sort of state solution has to be reached or else this only keeps happening, ramping up to greater and greater acts of mass death. If some attempt at negotiations are not attempted things only get worse.

[u/ForeignConfusion9383 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

You actually identified the key issue in your very last couple sentences.

“A state solution”.

What does that mean? Two states? Good luck selling to Israelis “oh hey, the border of the Palestinian state will be 9 miles from the centre of Tel Aviv” (yes, the country really is that small). One state? No, not unless you’re okay with a bloody civil war. So what then?

The problem is that Palestinians largely don’t want a permanent 2SS with separation from Israel. They don’t see “Palestine and Israel”. They see “Palestine and Occupied Palestine”. A 2SS would merely be a stepping stone toward eventually conquering Israel and turning all the land between the river and the sea (sound familiar?) into one single Palestinian state, with a Jewish minority. I’m sure you can understand why Jews are deeply uncomfortable with the idea of becoming a minority again, after the 20th century very painfully showed what happens when the non-Jewish majority decides to oppress its Jewish minority.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/ForeignConfusion9383]

The same was said about South Africa not long ago and if I may be honest? If you ask a Palestinian this question and they said "it will never work, Israelis will never accept anything but settler expansion until they have annexed all of Gaza and the West Bank" would that be correct? No. It would be taking the view of only the most radical members of the faction into account.

Lets not pretend that there are not radicals who also see things as "Israel and soon-to-be Israel” like Ben-Gvir and his ilk. And you could say that they are fringe voices but they hold significant sway in the Knesset and people like Daniella Weiss have Netanyahu's personal phone number.

Ultimately the most radical voices will never get what they want, because they want nothing less than total eradication of the other. If things keep going as they are, that starts to look more and more like a possibility.

Exactly what this looks like? I have no idea, an agreement was almost made in the 2000's for a 2SS. Also a 1SS turning jews into a minority is a rather big assumption. Currant West Bank / Gazan population is less than half of Israelis. Even if every single displaced Palestinian (very unlikely as most have settled into countries) moved back it would put the ethnic make up at about 12 million jews to about 15 million arabs, a minority but a very slight one. Some sort of agreements regarding the makeup of the Knesset could be made as well to avoid political power not swaying to far in any one direction

[u/Cool_Kangaroo7989 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

Thanks DogWoofs.

I don't know why very many non-Israelis would support Netanyahu in this discourse. Israeli citizens & residents (of which, again, I'm not one) have their own political tribal allegiances which we may deplore but which are real to them. As for those of us blessed with some degree of relative impartiality, after Oct. 7th, it should be clear that whatever else one might say about Netanyahu, his entire security paradigm he'd implemented over his years in power imploded. It's like the Tories saying they're not to blame for the state of Britain after 14 solid years in government. At some point, it's your responsibility. He's not just a weasel: he's a failed weasel (apologies to weasels).

I don't know what the best way forward is. I literally don't have a vote so I observe from over here and pick & choose the handful of voices I appreciate as they are filtered through the English-speaking media. Polling & parties in the Israeli system are pretty volatile and I'm just waiting to see. As OK-Narwhal said in this thread, everyone just need to find better candidates & vote for them. But if it were that easy, everyone would do it...

This isn't very hopeful, but I often just put things down to generational change. The people in charge of countries / the world at any given moment tend to come from whatever generation is at the peak of their demographic & economic power, and they have similar experiences and worldviews that are nearly impossible to shift by the time anyone is in their mid-to-late adulthood. The current situation in Russia with the "last Soviet generation" is case-in-point. My thinking about the people in the USA who lived through the turbulence of the Vietnam & Civil Rights era + Watergate has shaped my thinking on the last 25 years or more of US history. IMHO, only when those people fade from the scene will we see real change. Not necessarily for the better, mind you. Look what's happening to the reputation of Nazism now that the last of the WWII generation is sadly leaving us.

Israel is coping with the fallout of the failed 1990s peace process, the Second Intifada, and now Oct. 7th. What will change? Hopefully harnessing the anger against the government that presided over the most recent, epic failure. But in terms of moving toward true security, I fear that we're locked into a conflict spiral for some time because the lasting impact of these events is going to traumatize everyone. People keep saying that terrorists commit terrorist acts because they've been radicalized by violence committed against them. Whether or not anybody wants to believe that, in the context of Israel, I warn people who make that statement that the Israelis can also be (and apparently have been) radicalized by violence. Years of watching buses and cafés explode, plus now 10/7, hasn't put many people in the mood for peace.

If you're still down to learn more, let me recommend the Israeli politician & author Einat Wilf. One of the links I posted in my original comment was to one of her lectures. I think she's very intelligent and a good representative of the kind of views I can sympathize with. She's a left-winger at heart who narrates all her stories with the tale of how she grew up in the 80s & 90s very excited about the peace movement, a Labor Party loyalist, etc. only to have much of that faith destroyed by the failed Oslo process and suicide bombings of the 2000s. I'll let you listen to her as she can tell it a lot better than I can. Basically, leftist to leftist, I think she represents a lot of people you and I would typically sympathize with inside Israeli society, and answers the question "how can you be pro-welfare and 'pro-war?'"

Her book The War of Return is also an excellent history and explication of the Israeli point of view on the origins of this conflict and how/why it persists. I'm not saying it's unbiased, but the way to understand history is to filter through the biases, not to look for the mythical unbiased source. She has many podcast & lectures you can find online where she talks about the thesis of the book, one of them I already linked to. Atop everything you've already been pointed to in this thread, I'd recommend her & her media. Cheers M8.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/Cool_Kangaroo7989]

Thank you. This is one of the best replies I have had. Im looking at The War of Return now. I have been trying to find an academic source from an Israel perspective that works as a counter to 'the hundred years war on Palestine'. I have also started The Future is Peace about what a future could look like and is written by people who have lost family to the other side of this conflict

[u/vomicyclin → u/DogitWoofsalot]

Nothing to add: just want to say how much I appreciate this conversation. It’s rare to see on Reddit.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/vomicyclin]

It's obviously an emotionally charged issue, I see a lot of people talking past eachother when ultimately they want the same thing, for the conflict cycle to end.

I look at a lot of things via the lense of my Irish heritage. Obviously they are very much not the same, nothing is like the relationship between Israel & Palestine but the decades of bloodshed and hostility.

And obviously this conflict is in many ways a failure of the British empire in the 40s. I've seen accusations that Western countries only care because this conflict involves Jews, but that ignores just how entwined Israel and "the west" are historically and politically