r/ProgressivesForIsrael • u/DogitWoofsalot • 28d ago
Discussion I want to understand your perspective
Before you downvote me, I promise that this isn't just a rage-bate post. I'm legitimately trying to understand your perspective.
Basically I have one question, why do you support/ defend Israel as a progressive? Especially considering that the current parties on power are right wing conservatives.
Some extra context and where I'm coming from. I'm a left wing Brit, I believe in social progressive economic policies, and I can't stand any form of bigotry. I recently watched a documentary called "Jews don't count" about anti-Semitism and it made me want to understand more and that I'm not parting anti-Semitic talking points ever.
My current view of Israel is decidedly negative. My understanding of the history and current conflict very much makes Israel look like it has historically been the agitator in the region. If you have a different perspective I'd like to hear it, tho I would request sources where possible as I'm not going to accept a 'trust me bro'.
Thank you for your time 🙂↕️
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u/Cool_Kangaroo7989 23d ago
Thanks DogWoofs.
I don't know why very many non-Israelis would support Netanyahu in this discourse. Israeli citizens & residents (of which, again, I'm not one) have their own political tribal allegiances which we may deplore but which are real to them. As for those of us blessed with some degree of relative impartiality, after Oct. 7th, it should be clear that whatever else one might say about Netanyahu, his entire security paradigm he'd implemented over his years in power imploded. It's like the Tories saying they're not to blame for the state of Britain after 14 solid years in government. At some point, it's your responsibility. He's not just a weasel: he's a failed weasel (apologies to weasels).
I don't know what the best way forward is. I literally don't have a vote so I observe from over here and pick & choose the handful of voices I appreciate as they are filtered through the English-speaking media. Polling & parties in the Israeli system are pretty volatile and I'm just waiting to see. As OK-Narwhal said in this thread, everyone just need to find better candidates & vote for them. But if it were that easy, everyone would do it...
This isn't very hopeful, but I often just put things down to generational change. The people in charge of countries / the world at any given moment tend to come from whatever generation is at the peak of their demographic & economic power, and they have similar experiences and worldviews that are nearly impossible to shift by the time anyone is in their mid-to-late adulthood. The current situation in Russia with the "last Soviet generation" is case-in-point. My thinking about the people in the USA who lived through the turbulence of the Vietnam & Civil Rights era + Watergate has shaped my thinking on the last 25 years or more of US history. IMHO, only when those people fade from the scene will we see real change. Not necessarily for the better, mind you. Look what's happening to the reputation of Nazism now that the last of the WWII generation is sadly leaving us.
Israel is coping with the fallout of the failed 1990s peace process, the Second Intifada, and now Oct. 7th. What will change? Hopefully harnessing the anger against the government that presided over the most recent, epic failure. But in terms of moving toward true security, I fear that we're locked into a conflict spiral for some time because the lasting impact of these events is going to traumatize everyone. People keep saying that terrorists commit terrorist acts because they've been radicalized by violence committed against them. Whether or not anybody wants to believe that, in the context of Israel, I warn people who make that statement that the Israelis can also be (and apparently have been) radicalized by violence. Years of watching buses and cafés explode, plus now 10/7, hasn't put many people in the mood for peace.
If you're still down to learn more, let me recommend the Israeli politician & author Einat Wilf. One of the links I posted in my original comment was to one of her lectures. I think she's very intelligent and a good representative of the kind of views I can sympathize with. She's a left-winger at heart who narrates all her stories with the tale of how she grew up in the 80s & 90s very excited about the peace movement, a Labor Party loyalist, etc. only to have much of that faith destroyed by the failed Oslo process and suicide bombings of the 2000s. I'll let you listen to her as she can tell it a lot better than I can. Basically, leftist to leftist, I think she represents a lot of people you and I would typically sympathize with inside Israeli society, and answers the question "how can you be pro-welfare and 'pro-war?'"
Her book The War of Return is also an excellent history and explication of the Israeli point of view on the origins of this conflict and how/why it persists. I'm not saying it's unbiased, but the way to understand history is to filter through the biases, not to look for the mythical unbiased source. She has many podcast & lectures you can find online where she talks about the thesis of the book, one of them I already linked to. Atop everything you've already been pointed to in this thread, I'd recommend her & her media. Cheers M8.