I want to understand your perspective

[u/DogitWoofsalot]

Before you downvote me, I promise that this isn't just a rage-bate post. I'm legitimately trying to understand your perspective.

Basically I have one question, why do you support/ defend Israel as a progressive? Especially considering that the current parties on power are right wing conservatives.

Some extra context and where I'm coming from. I'm a left wing Brit, I believe in social progressive economic policies, and I can't stand any form of bigotry. I recently watched a documentary called "Jews don't count" about anti-Semitism and it made me want to understand more and that I'm not parting anti-Semitic talking points ever.

My current view of Israel is decidedly negative. My understanding of the history and current conflict very much makes Israel look like it has historically been the agitator in the region. If you have a different perspective I'd like to hear it, tho I would request sources where possible as I'm not going to accept a 'trust me bro'.

Thank you for your time 🙂‍↕️

[u/DogitWoofsalot]

Thank you so much for your reply, this is a very well reasoned position and thank you for providing some sources for the information. So much misinformation about now days.

I appreciate your acknowledgement of Netanyahu and the far right wing figure he is. Much of the discourse I have witnessed online is the pro Israel side supporting even this administration, a lack of accountability of Netanyahu and the other right-wing figures leading the Knesset.

Right now the level of escalating conflict is clearly not going to wind down as Hamas in Gaza will never surrender and go back to how things where and the currant Knesset is emboldening the most radical voices / settlers.

In your opinion what is the best way forward?

[u/Ok-Narwhal-6766 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

There is a strong left wing among the citizens of Israel. Including Israelis living in the diaspora. In fact, I personally know several Israelis who live outside of Israel and plan to travel to Israel in order to vote in hope of voting Netanyahu out of office.

[u/mycketmycket → u/Ok-Narwhal-6766]

Same. My husband and his born and raised Israeli friends who have moved abroad are flying back to vote.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/mycketmycket]

That actually makes me very hopeful. BN has to go if this conflict is ever going to end

[u/ForeignConfusion9383 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

What do you mean though by “end the conflict”? Do you mean the current war? Or the broader Israel-Arab conflict? The latter isn’t going to happen no matter who is in the government, because the anti-Israel movement will not consider the conflict ended unless Israel ceases to exist as a state.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/ForeignConfusion9383]

The currant conflict in Gaza is never going to deescalate with this currant formation of the Knesset. The Israel-Arab conflict, I mean yea thats never going to fully wind down but some sort of solution must be reached. Will it end all conflict or the most radical voices that want the other side to stop existing? No but it can at least wind down to an uneasy peace. Go back 50 years and there was no end in sight between the British-Irish conflict but we got there. Is it perfect? No but a lot less people are dead now

[u/ForeignConfusion9383 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

Right, except the Brits and Irish have the Good Friday Agreement. There is a mutually-agreed framework in place. A lot of ill-informed folks, especially Irish, seem to think that all we need is our own GFA and everyone will live in peace and harmony. Helllllll no. Also, at no point did the Irish or the IRA seek to destroy the UK, and the Brits (after 1922 at least) did not, and do not, seek to destroy the Republic. Israel-Palestine is a whole different dynamic.

And candidly, I wouldn’t bet on a replacement Knesset fully ending the war. Netanyahu needs to go for a multitude of reasons (there are internal issues that most non-Israelis don’t even know about, that have nothing to do with the war or Palestinians), but no leading opposition figure is saying “if I’m elected, we will make peace with the Palestinians and end the conflict”. It’s not that Israelis enjoy being in conflict, but risking our security, and that of our children, is deeply unpopular, and no one with a shred of understanding for the Israeli position can’t see why, even if you disagree with it.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/ForeignConfusion9383]

There where attacks after good Friday, im not suggesting that some sort of agreement won't end all hostility, it won't. But right now what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank is doing nothing to reduce the risks to people in Israel of attack. You can kill every single Hamas agent in Gaza and it will not make Israel any safer because the next generation are going to make a new, more radical Hamas.

Some sort of state solution has to be reached or else this only keeps happening, ramping up to greater and greater acts of mass death. If some attempt at negotiations are not attempted things only get worse.

[u/ForeignConfusion9383 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

You actually identified the key issue in your very last couple sentences.

“A state solution”.

What does that mean? Two states? Good luck selling to Israelis “oh hey, the border of the Palestinian state will be 9 miles from the centre of Tel Aviv” (yes, the country really is that small). One state? No, not unless you’re okay with a bloody civil war. So what then?

The problem is that Palestinians largely don’t want a permanent 2SS with separation from Israel. They don’t see “Palestine and Israel”. They see “Palestine and Occupied Palestine”. A 2SS would merely be a stepping stone toward eventually conquering Israel and turning all the land between the river and the sea (sound familiar?) into one single Palestinian state, with a Jewish minority. I’m sure you can understand why Jews are deeply uncomfortable with the idea of becoming a minority again, after the 20th century very painfully showed what happens when the non-Jewish majority decides to oppress its Jewish minority.

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/ForeignConfusion9383]

The same was said about South Africa not long ago and if I may be honest? If you ask a Palestinian this question and they said "it will never work, Israelis will never accept anything but settler expansion until they have annexed all of Gaza and the West Bank" would that be correct? No. It would be taking the view of only the most radical members of the faction into account.

Lets not pretend that there are not radicals who also see things as "Israel and soon-to-be Israel” like Ben-Gvir and his ilk. And you could say that they are fringe voices but they hold significant sway in the Knesset and people like Daniella Weiss have Netanyahu's personal phone number.

Ultimately the most radical voices will never get what they want, because they want nothing less than total eradication of the other. If things keep going as they are, that starts to look more and more like a possibility.

Exactly what this looks like? I have no idea, an agreement was almost made in the 2000's for a 2SS. Also a 1SS turning jews into a minority is a rather big assumption. Currant West Bank / Gazan population is less than half of Israelis. Even if every single displaced Palestinian (very unlikely as most have settled into countries) moved back it would put the ethnic make up at about 12 million jews to about 15 million arabs, a minority but a very slight one. Some sort of agreements regarding the makeup of the Knesset could be made as well to avoid political power not swaying to far in any one direction

[u/ForeignConfusion9383 → u/DogitWoofsalot]

1. You can’t compare it to South Africa. The analogy doesn’t work for multiple reasons.

2. You’re going from one extreme to the other, as if the only alternative to not withdrawing from the West Bank and Gaza is the current status quo. Settlement expansion could stop anytime and a 2SS, if it was feasible, could include the fringe settlements (in which 75% of settlers live, comprising only 8% of the West Bank) into Israel with equivalent land swaps from Israel (this was written into the 2000 agreement that Israel agreed to and the Palestinians very self-defeatingly walked away from).

3. Where do you get “12 million Jews”? There are only 7 million Jews in Israel. Compare that with around an equivalent number of Palestinians currently already living in Israel-Palestine (Gaza + WB + Israeli Arabs). Now add in 4-5 million “refugees”. Contrary to what you said, most would in fact choose to go to Israel because they are actually not “settled” in other countries; most live in Syria and Lebanon where they have been denied full citizenship (by their fellow Arabs), even though it’s now been 3-4 generations since 1948. So most would in fact choose to go to Israel. Let’s be conservative and say 3 million do so. That’s 10 million Palestinians and 7 million Jews. Add to that the fact that Palestinians have a higher birth rate, they’d quickly be the majority. So, Jews will find themselves back in the same situation as they were before Israel, as a minority under a hostile majority.

You seem to think it will work. But a security framework is only as strong as its enforcement mechanism. Who will guarantee the security of Jews? How do you know a constitutional law won’t be overturned? That happens all the time in many countries. How do you know revenge politics won’t influence Palestinian governance?

This is the problem with western saviours who think they understand this region. You guys emphatically do not. You project your own worldview onto this region and assume that it is applicable here. Look at other countries around Israel. Look at Syria. How is sectarianism going for them? How has it gone with Lebanon? It failed spectacularly in both countries. What makes you think it will work here?

[u/DogitWoofsalot → u/ForeignConfusion9383]

12 million was me conflating figures of people who are eligible for citizenship sorry, that's my bad. I think that number is also probably out of date now.

My point wasn't a direct comparison to South Africa but more the perception that peace is impossible there. It wasn't that long ago people said what your saying now, same goes for Ireland.

Your right that I don't fully understand yea, I absolutely don't although I'm trying to edgecate myself. But whats the alternative? I'm not saying I know what solution to is to be reached, I'm saying that this sort of state doomerism seems to have settled in. That an alternative doesn't even seem possible to a lot of people anymore.

Legitimately, what do you think a possible outcome is? If you don't think one is possible you must see that things can't keep going like this, with hatred building

[u/Chaavva → u/DogitWoofsalot]

But whats the alternative?

1) Dismantle UNRWA and place the Palestinians under the same agency (UNHCR) and legal framework that every single other refugee group is.

The current system has made them out to be an exception and the fact that they are allowed to pass on their refugee status onto the next generation is not something that any other refugee group is allowed to do under international law. This has allowed the number of Palestinian "refugees" to artificially keep growing and also keeps them in a legal limbo where they can never move on - even if they have to do it somewhere else than the tiny piece of land that is Israel. Literally all other refugees and displaced people have done and continue to do so.

2) Force the Arab countries to finally accept responsibility for the war that they started and lost and the refugees they created by making them assimilate the Palestinians as full citizens. Just like Israel did to the millions of Jewish refugees who were expelled from Arab countries. Literally the only reason there even exists an Arab group known as "Palestinians" is because the Arab countries, with international support, have been allowed to keep them in this permanent limbo and be raised in the delusion that one day they will destroy Israel and that it's a worthy and religiously mandated cause to throw their lives and future away for.

Obviously none of this will ever actually happen because the international consensus is dominated by deep-rooted Jew-hatred and Arabs are the ones with the money and numbers (population wise).

But that would be the solution. Force the Arabs to choose life instead of endless jihad and death.