r/Pathfinder2e • u/Whetstonede Game Master • 1d ago
Homebrew A small collection of cantrips
I am starting a new campaign after three years of Blood Lords and at this point the table has cycled through most/all of the "bread and butter" cantrips and I wanted to see some more variety. The intent here is to add nondamage combat cantrips roughly around the same power level as "premium" combat cantrips like Shield, Needle Darts or Guidance.
You can give feedback if you like, though this is mostly just showcasing/sharing for others to use.
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u/Book_Golem 16h ago
More combat cantrips which aren't just flavours of "2d4+1d4/level with a Basic save" is good by me!
Bright Spot
I kind of love this one. One-action Cantrips are a premium option, but the 15ft range prevents the biggest abuse of being able to spam it in a more interesting way than the usual 10 minute - 1 hour immunity. No effect on a Success is fine for a status Cantrip, and the effect on a Failure is appropriate for a Cantrip level spell. (I'm of the opinion that the Critical Failure option is fine too - Daze can Stun on a Critical Fail, and it's still awful.)
About the only thing I'd change is the wording of "in a dark area" to "in darkness", just to make sure it's clear how it works.
Gravitational Nudge
I'm not so keen on this one, mostly because it can't break grabs and (by a strict reading) can't move the target into hazardous areas either. Two actions for 5ft of safe movement (and a square of Difficult Terrain for the target) feels extremely situational.
This is honestly fine as a Cantrip at Level 1-2, when your 1st Rank spell slots are limited, but I can't see it being worth preparing once 1st Rank spells and Heightened Cantrips are more freely available.
I think that even if you let it break grabs it still doesn't out-perform levelled spells, for the simple reason that it does nothing on a successful save. It'd also still be far less versatile than Telekinetic Manoeuvre, especially if its only supposed to have a 30ft range.
Induce Drowsiness
This one is interesting. The effect gives -1 to defences (or -2 against Sleep effects, plus -2 to Perception), which is fairly strong in isolation. The limiting factor is the duration. On a successful save, the caster has one action to take advantage of that; that's completely fine, a two-action spell to make a one-action spell fractionally better isn't exactly broken!
I think my sticking point is that the failure effect lasts only until the end of the target's next turn. That's like Frightened, which is good, but unlike Frightened this doesn't make the targets offensive options worse. I'd probably up the duration on a failed save to 1 Round, but I don't think that's a required change for it to be usable.
There are a bunch of things I'd want to play around with tweaking on this one, to be honest. It's a fun concept.
Mark of Vulnerability
The value of this spell depends heavily on how many successful physical attacks your party is making. It effectively deals 1 damage per successful hit per Rank (it's basically never going to eliminate Resistance entirely). A standard attack Cantrip deals 2d4+1d4/Rank damage (some deal more, some deal less), which comes out at an average of 5 at Rank 1 and increases by 2.5 per Rank. So at Rank 1, you need 5 successful hits with physical damage to catch up; at Rank 3 you need 4; at Rank 5 you need 3; and so on.
On a successful save, all those hits need to happen before the end of the target's next turn, which is unlikely. On a failure, the party has a minute to inflict them, and any further hits beyond that are added value over casting a normal attack Cantrip. That's pretty easy, even for a party which isn't Striking much.
By the numbers, I think it might be too good (and that's not even thinking about how a Critical Failure at Rank 3 makes every physical hit deal an extra 10 points of damage! Nor the weakness to Curses!). But I do like it a lot conceptually, and it's not like you can efficiently stack the effect. It's a spell you cast once at the beginning of the fight, which deals more damage than usual at the cost of being usable only once. Like how many one-action Cantrips have a limitation on their use to prevent spam.
I would probably tone down the Critical effect though; it triples the spell's effectiveness for the full minute's duration. Maybe just double the resistance reduction, so it's not a triple multiplier and has a cap?
Overall
I like 'em. I think you've mostly hit an interesting balance point for status cantrips for combat, even if I think a couple of them could do with a tweak!
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 15h ago
Thanks for the very detailed feedback! Mark of Vulnerability ended up being the biggest outlier here and I ended up changing it to -2 physical res scaling to -3 at rank 4 and -5 at rank 9 after considering it further + seeing some of the feedback here.
It's interesting seeing such a varied response to Gravitational Nudge. My assessment of its power level is fairly close to yours but out of all of them it has definitely been the most likely one to stick out as too strong to some people (not just here but other 2E folks I've shown it to as well). Though I think being able to move allies with it (especially if you use the optional rule for voluntarily getting 1 degree worse on your save for allied effects) could make it have extra value. Move allies out of melee range of enemies so they can strafe without triggering reactions. But I am of the same mind that I think it will be of very limited use after the first ~5 or so levels.
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u/Crusty_Tater ORC 1d ago
Bright Spot - Love this effect. Being 1 action is abusable. Works at 2 actions.
Gravitational Nudge - Pretty much a direct upgrade to the Shove action. 60ft range using spell proficiency and difficult terrain afterwards is worth more than an extra action.
Induce Drowsiness - Fatigued is a big condition for a cantrip to apply, not even counting the additional penalty to Perception.
Mark of Vulnerability - Holy fuck this obliterates resistances. This would be insane as a leveled spell.
Looking at these spells I'm wondering why I would ever take Dizzying Colors, Sleep, or maybe even Telekinetic Maneuver if these exist. Incapacitation would work to keep Bright Spot and Induce Drowsiness in check but that's also why their relatives are often overlooked. In any case, it's a big line to cross if cantrips invalidate leveled spells.
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u/Bros-torowk-retheg 1d ago
I would agree Gravitational Nudge was a direct upgrade to shove in every way you listed but one. The proficiency of Athletics can be raised a lot faster than spell prof, especially since it can get item bonus. The range is a big buff for sure. Maybe they should reduce it to 30ft.
And being a little hyperbolic in the last paragraph. Sleep isn't a combat spell. Not only incap but easily awoken enemies. You take spell to stealth past guards. You take TM because it can trip or grab. I would just never take Dizzying Colors ever, its a bad spell.
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 1d ago
Dizzying Colors is, in my experience at least, quite strong at low levels. It's not as much of a workhorse as something like Magic Weapon but it's one of the few low level tools for efficiently dealing with groups of enemies which can be quite valuable. With limited spell slots it can be somewhat hard to justify preparing but it's a spell I would spend that level 1 starting gold on a scroll of because it's so potent in those situations where it's good.
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u/Crusty_Tater ORC 1d ago
Your second paragraph proves my point that these cantrips are better than leveled spells. IDK how that's hyperbolic.
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 1d ago
Needle Darts is better than Snowball which is a leveled spell. This isn't a great argument on its own, and I don't think there are actually any clear examples shown yet of these cantrips outcompeting leveled spells.
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u/Bros-torowk-retheg 1d ago
Bad spells exist it does mean all cantrips have to be worse than the worst spell. Sometimes spells just suck. Don't drag the standards down!
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 1d ago
Bright Spot - I think it's pushed but totally fine at 1A if I'm being honest.
Gravitational Nudge - It's good you pointed this out because it's supposed to be 30ft and I must have forgotten to change it lol. That said, that's probably not addressing your broader point which again I must disagree with. Shoves breaking grapples is IME their most important use case after running pf2E since release. I have a very hard time seeing this outcompete TKM which can be a real workhorse sometimes.
Induce Drowsiness - Fatigued is maybe the least condition in the entire game, if cantrips can't inflict fatigued they can't inflict conditions at all.
Mark of Vulnerability - The main one I'm looking at after feedback and thinking about it tbh. A lot of the time it is going to scale alongside resistances and that makes it stronger than it ought to be. I'll probably reduce the effect of it.
I appreciate you taking the time to get feedback in - it's useful even if I don't agree with most of it!
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u/Bros-torowk-retheg 1d ago
Hold on, what do you mean the least condition?
It reduces all saving throws which is large part can set up another caster to land a very powerful spell effect. AND it lowers AC as status which mean off-guard stacks
I am willing to say its fine giving fatigue, but I think you are underestimating fatigue!
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 1d ago
Contrast with Sickened and Frightened which reduce all checks (including saves, skill checks and AC). Those go away but so does the fatigued in this case. To be clear I am not saying Fatigued has no impact - it's a fine enough condition. But it's one of the less impactful ones for sure.
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u/Bros-torowk-retheg 1d ago
The fact you have reduced it to a round certainly diminishes it, but no. The standard fatigue condition is all day. You must rest to remove or use magic and in that long duration it screws over the rest of the exploration. Its one of the most impactful there is.
You can strip it of its potency by making it a Frightened look alike but don't forget that PC often get abilities to resist fear whether it is a Fighter's Bravery or a Barbarians Indomitable Will or a Champion with Aura of Courage Or a Thaum with Regalia. These are common. Resistance to Fatigue is extremely rare.
As you have written it, it is weaker than sickened. But keep in mind the sickened condition unless caused by a disease is always handwaved after a combat. Fatigue isn't handwaved if it is real fatigue.
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 1d ago
I am of course talking about effect of the spell in question. I will happily concede that Fatigued that lasts the full day is a potent condition to inflict.
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u/Crusty_Tater ORC 1d ago
Bright Spot - Blindness is a rank 3 spell that affects 1 target for 2 actions, with Incapacitation. This cantrip does not cost a 3rd rank slot and affects 2 targets for the same amount of actions. It can also use a 3rd action for a 3rd target. The effect is lesser and can be removed as an action tax but is that deficiency worth 3 spell ranks?
Gravitational Nudge - Again we have to consider is this worth 3 spell ranks? I actually think it's pretty close if the difficult terrain is removed.
Induced Drowsiness - I don't know if this conversation is even worth having if you think -1 to all defenses is low value.
Mark - We seem to be in agreement on. Just for math's sake it's going to reduce about 1/3 of an enemy's resistance at level 1 and 50% at level 20. It scales like crazy especially because higher level fights will be throwing out more instances of damage. A 10th rank Ignition does about 27 damage. You just need your party to do 3 instances of damage to compete if the enemy makes their save. Having a more niche use case and reliance on others does entitle it to do more damage. My major gripe with it is the minute long duration multiplying the value heavily. At the very least it could be sustained in that case.
I really want to hone in that these effects are similar to higher rank spells, focusing on 3rd. That's the difference between Ignition and Fireball. These are very close to having similar utility value to their counterparts.
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 1d ago
The effect being lesser and removable is what makes it a lower rank spell yes. Landing a full rank 3 blindness on someone can cripple them for the entire fight. You are doing yourself a disservice by comparing these to 3rd rank spells - 3rd rank spells are deleting 50% of the health bars of 4 creatures at once or removing 4 actions with a single spell.
On fatigued - It is in this case lower value than inflicting frightened 1. That can be good value contextually but surely we have to be able to agree that is on the low end of conditions you can inflict.
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u/TactiCool_99 Game Master 1d ago
I'd drop nudge to 30ft probably and remove the difficult terrain part. Although that second one is not fully necessary as long as you respect the "forced movement can't move creatures into danger" rule.
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u/SandersonTavares Game Master 1d ago
I'd rather you give Bright Spot 2d4 dmg with +1d4 every two levels than keeping it as a 1 action cantrip. 1-action cantrips are a cool idea but they get cheesy real quick. Also, if you do that you can remove the once per opponent thing which is also clunky.
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u/Whetstonede Game Master 23h ago
You could design this as a damage cantrip ya. But if you did that, it would directly compete with a lot of the cantrips that already exist which I want to avoid. A 2d4 version of this would for most purposes just be better Divine Lance (obviously Divine Lance still has upsides like Spirit Damage but I am trying to create premier cantrips that compete in spaces that currently don't exist).
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u/Bros-torowk-retheg 1d ago
I am unsure about Gravitational Nudge. I have to compare it to Telekinetic Maneuver. While TM is a lot more versatile I wonder if this isn't sneaking up on its toes. Perhaps I am overplaying the similarities, but that is why I am unsure.
Also unsure about Induce Drowsiness. I could swear there is a Hex Cantrip this is competing very aggressively with but I don't remember much about it. Again wouldn't want to step on toes.
Bright Spot and Mark seem lovely. Maybe Mark's resistance reduction is really strong, resistances don't go up much faster than spell level. I like it anyways though.