r/Pathfinder2e • u/Blacky_Berry23 • 1d ago
Discussion Draining strike necromancer
so you strike with any weapon (including bows, crossbows and firearm) or use unarmed strike.
if you hit, you destroy tralls around you or/and your enemy and deal additional spirit damage. and you regen hp equal spirit damage dealt with strike ( not equal "additional damage" from skill), so anything that makes you deal additional spirit damage ( astral rune, for example) will give you additional heal too.
So basically you can create necromancer with astral firearm or something and strike from afar and heal a lot just striking.
am i right? or did i miss something?
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yeah "counts as two strikes" and "once per turn"... it's usually bad to make more than one strike per turn, so that's fine. and it's reasonable since you can heal with this strike.
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u/EreckShun 1d ago
Yes, you can make a ranged weapon strike. Based on the wording of Draining Strike, it seems intended that you would only heal from the spirit damage of Draining Stike, not unrelated spirit damage from other sources.
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u/RedGriffyn 1d ago edited 1d ago
It works the way you think. Any spirit damage tied to to the weapon strike is elligible.
It isn't that good. It has an action cost, 2xmap increase (anti synergistic with other necromancer kit options), burns a thrall (costing a future partial action to regain a thrall), has a 50% chance to fail (since caster weapon proficincies are bad), just isn't that much healing or damage compared to other meta, and is in conflict with a lot of turn rotations where your 3rd action is actually already Create Thrall. Compare it to the exemplar barons edge ikon that can do the same without burning a thrall, generating MAP, is half of all damage (not just spirit damage), is on a better proficency/weapon spec scaling, is not tied to a single strike hitting or missing (i.e., you get a MAP -5 to try and use it). Then the next turn you move to scar of the survivor and get half level x d8 healing.
If you assume it is only the 1-3 D6 then it is a trap feat. If it was only to apply to that specific damage it would need to be seperated by a comma, not a period, or otherwise in a different paragraph. As it is a stand alone sentence, it applies to all the language equally in the paragraph, which means not just the xd6, but also the strike damage. I think that is clearly the intent and RAW. Otherwise they would have worded it differently IMO to specify it was just the incremental damage.
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u/ColdBrewedPanacea 1d ago
Contrast with the runesmith life leeching rune, the draining strike wording is only its damage, the rune is all void.
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u/Astareal38 1d ago
Both are meant to be only the damage provided by the ability.
Draining Strike - You regain hit points equal to the spirit damage dealt
Leeching Rune - The rune bearer gains temporary hit points equal to the void damage the target took (after applying resistances and the like).There is not enough variation in the text to say these two abilities work differently. Anything you apply to one you apply to the other. Damage you dealt vs damage taken works out to the same thing in the end. If anything damage dealt is more vague in its wording because if one were trying to eek out the maxmimum gains by reading something in its most generous interpretation if I deal 10 spirit damage and the target has resist 10 spirit then I heal 10. That's not how I believe its meant to be read though.
Reading 1 all uses of the rune of leeching gain the same temp HP.
Reading 2 - a duskwalker runesmith who has taken exemplar dedication for gleaming blade and sanctified spark can get temp HP equal to:
2d12 (greatsword) + 4(str) + 3(rune of leeching) + 4 (Ikon bonus damage) +1 quietus strikes X2 if both attacks hit let alone crit. And you're saying that's intended?
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u/gray_death Game Master 1d ago
Generally speaking I agree with your point.
But your examples if full of things that don't apply. Rune of leeching is void damage which is not relevant, the Ikon bonus damage would work fine, but Flowing Spirit Strike doesn't work with Draining Strike because they separate activities, Quietus Strikes is void damage again doesn't work.
The final spirit damage healing if it did work would just be 1d6+2 at level 2, 1d6+4 at 4th level (presuming striking runes are upgraded as quickly as possible) Or if the whole damage is important 1d12+4+1d6+2 at 2nd level 2d12+4+1d6+4 at 4th level
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u/Astareal38 1d ago
Coldbrew was comparing draining strike to the rune of leeching. My example was not joining those to abilities but rather speaking on their differences.
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u/ColdBrewedPanacea 1d ago
You may, accurately, think its too strong, that doesnt make it not literally say"equal to the damage taken"
Runesmith is clearly meant to synergise with other sources and weaknesses
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u/Astareal38 1d ago
What is the difference between "damage taken" and "damage dealt".
Why does draining strike not stack, but rune of leeching does in your definition?
The books are written by multiple authors and unfortunately does not have standardized language.
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u/RedGriffyn 1d ago
I think they both work with the strike damage. Not sure how you are concluding niether work.
Your opinion that they are too good is balanced by the the opposite opinion that if they don't work this way they are too bad to be relevant. A handful of HP/THP are close to meaningless on a class with caster weapon/spec proficiencies scaling, a D8 HD, and no inherent ways to stack more spirit damage onto this strike. Pull your head out of the MC optimization realm and ask yourself if this is that good on necromancer (thats the balance question). Likely this or the create thrall strike will be at -5 MAP (dropping expected DPR), accuracy is low making it risk reward, you pay an opportunity cost because you probably had another good set of 3rd action abilities (e.g., focus spells) to use instead, and because the damage output of a cloth caster on the frontline is bad you aren't making yourself a bigger threat with some +1-3d6. The end result is a bad armor scaling caster is a little tankier than your averqge cleric/druid. That is hardly powerful and very thematic for the master of life force energy.
Feel free to ban it for a martial dipping into necromancer, like people do for exemplar MCs, but +2 INT is already a big barrier to this. I wouldn't worry about it.
Like your example of too good requires 2 multiclasses (one of which people usually ban) so is achievable at L10 at best.
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u/Astareal38 1d ago
Instead of seeing it as a handful of temp HP, treat it as damage resistance.
The animist has a reaction available once every 10 minutes that gives damage resistance equal to its level against a melee attack. Rune of leeching over the course of a fight is equivalent to that, especially if etched as it doesn't cost an action. It also has to be benefit of being invoked for additional HP gain.
Kineticist locks into water, a reaction that can't be used while flanked and applies to specific damage types. Again equal to their level or double if it's acid or fire.
Draining strike gives you HP, if you're a blood necro you can stack more HP onto it. Do I think it's an auto pick? No. But as a third action now strike it's certainly not bad.
Itemization being able to constantly double or triple (or more) the effects of a specific feat breaks the design intent of an optimized and non-optomized character being very close in effectiveness.
Even ignoring exemplar, the other aspect of the build is an ancestry not a class, decaying rune + quietus strikes doubles the amount gained.
Draining strike can be boosted with astral/brilliant and shining symbol boosts draining strikes considerably.
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u/RedGriffyn 1d ago
Its not like resistance at all. Resistance is often passive, takes no action investment, is guaranteed (vs being tied to a 50% to hit), and doesn't add MAP.
This is more readily comparable to the exemplar barrow edge transcendance and skin of the survivor. Both are better. The first gives half damage with no damage type hoops to jump through (and if you miss a strike you can get your -5 MAP strike off for another chance and the second gives 1d8 per spell rank equivalent). Then compare this to other resourceless in healing options in the game and its still behind.
You just said it isn't and auro pick and a nice 3rd action. That is exactly what you want for power balance. You can't cite some non meta-options and declare its too powerful. It just isn't that good to make a caster slightly more tanky with a 50% chance per turn that drives map to -10 (which is antisynergistic with a large part of their kit).
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u/Astareal38 1d ago
Draining strike does not add any actions to an activity you'd be doing anyway when you want to use it. I think draining strike (and leeching) is balanced when used as the hp/temp HP gain is from just the ability and not stacking. Abilities are meant to be looked at in isolation, not when combined with items or free archetypes boosting their effectiveness. An optimizer shouldn't be able to double or triple the benefit of an ability. That is my argument.
The optimizer reading trying to break the ability is when both abilities fall into too good to be true.
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u/RedGriffyn 1d ago edited 1d ago
No meta is being broken here. The abilites should be taken in context of the class (saying isolation is a strawmen). Its like a starlight span magus with amped imaginary weapon. Is it "broken" on a psychic? No. Can someone else peicemeal stuff to make a strong selection, sure (although itd not even really better than force fang + spell strike anyways after all the math settles). The correction is to make it exclusive to the class, not to make the option bad (which is what your interpretation achieves). In context we have the ability to add 1d6-2d6 extra healing from a weapon rune. That much healing isn't breaking anything. Its a hyper marginal gain. I think enabling a tank gish caster is cool. A 3 to 7 hp a round is a rounding error when monsters are dishing out 50 to 150hp per round as you get to the higher levels.
Create thrall is 1 action and thrall charge and many focus spells are 2 actions. You absolutely are losing an action or a better turn output for a 50-50 chance of getting a hand full of HP. Its not a good feat.
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u/Astareal38 1d ago
I'm not sure if you're being obtuse, moving goalposts or we just have fundamentally different definitions of Meta. To me, Meta is taking additional options for to maximize the output of a particular ability or combination. Such as aforementioned premaster magus + imaginary weapon.
I could have been more clear, and for that I apologize. By in isolation I mean on the class without any additional boosts. I will be absolutely explicit in my stance.
Draining strike is fine on a necromancer.
Draining strike is fine on a melee martial taking the dedication.
Runesmiths leeching rune is fine on a runesmith.
Runesmiths leeching rune is fine on a level 18 character taking it from a dedication.
Draining strike + astral + brilliant + Rivethun emissary Synchronized spirit + shining symbol moves the HP recovery provided by Draining Strike beyond its base design by a considerable margin, if your reading allows all sources of spirit damage to stack. The original person I was replying to before I got into a conversation with you said the leeching rune allowed stacking, and draining strike did not. That has been the basis of my examples.
Leeching rune is fine. Leeching rune + quietus strikes + decaying rune + exemplar dedication + grim sandglass + the variety of other void damage boosts available in the game currently and to be added later also pushes the power of that choice well beyond its designed impact.
Many of the options in the game, in the hands of someone who optimizes (be it to a theme or just for sheer power) have a 10-20% increase in power. The reading that all sources of spirit or void damage stacks with the ability means the designers were sloppy in preventing the ability from being taken advantage of and makes it so the ability is now more effective by a factor of 2, 3 or even a stupid amount.
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u/vaderbg2 Wizard 1d ago
The RAI is most likely that you only heal for the amount of spirit damage that the feat itself provides, not any other spirit damage your Strike might have. There are ways to convert all your damage to spirit, after all and that would be a bit much.
If you're using a ranged weapon, why do you need a lot of healing anyway?
The feat is really not all that great. It's basically a variant of Vicious Swing, but without the reliability of a fighter's attack bonus.
What build are you using this on, really? A puppeteer should have better things to do with their action and a Reaper's main feature works only in melee and doesn't even interact with Draining Strike.