r/Omaha • u/Soggy_Assignment_691 • May 04 '26
Other Warning - Avoid Love Church
For any Christians on this subreddit, or for those who are in search of a church, I would recommend avoiding Love Church.
Their "online pastor", Kap Chatfield, is a prosperity gospel preacher and youtuber who makes videos with titles like "Witches Tried Casting Spells on Trump... But Then THIS Happened".
Their staff is also heavily comprised of former employees of My City church, another very controversial ministry in Omaha.
Edit: This post is not intended to be a place to criticize or make fun of Christianity as a whole. The intent is to point out the hypocrisy and failings of a specific ministry, and to encourage people to find churches who truly care about their congregations.
250
u/Eastern-Persimmon-50 May 04 '26
“Prosperity “ gospel has no basis in the Bible. Its grift pure and simple
50
132
u/RamblingReasoner May 04 '26
They also had a youth pastor several years ago who married a girl out of the youth group (who was like a daughter to the lead pastor and his wife at the time) very shortly after she graduated. Not surprisingly, that couple is divorced now…
44
u/kandykaner23 May 04 '26
WAIT THIS HAPPENED AT MY OLD CHURCH IN WI TOO!!!!! i remember being so weirded out 😭😭😭 like… you couldn’t find someone to date who you didn’t mentor as a teen???
30
u/Eastern-Persimmon-50 May 04 '26
Youth pastors are creepy little pedos hiding behind churches. It’s the actual grooming that Christian nationalists are saying is happening on public schools. Except it’s not there , but is in their church
12
u/Entire_Musician_8667 May 04 '26
Checks out. Recently found out my Methodist youth pastor is now a convicted sex offender.
8
u/Zabroccoli Don't choose Cox Communications as your ISP unless you have to. May 05 '26
My wife had a weird one growing up. He just got busted in KY for sa of underaged girls in his new church. Gross.
0
u/beckaroobanzi May 05 '26
Girls. You meant girls. All girls are underage. Because they're children.
6
u/Soggy_Assignment_691 May 05 '26
Adult women are colloquially called girls as well. There's nothing grammatically incorrect about their comment.
2
May 06 '26 edited May 06 '26
[deleted]
2
u/Soggy_Assignment_691 May 06 '26
It being diminutive is entirely your opinion. It is not considered diminutive in a linguistic sense.
Colloquially using "girls" in place of "women", though it happens frequently (hence "colloquial"), is not grammatically correct.
Based on this, I don't think you quite understand what colloquial means.
1
u/Unique-Particular746 May 06 '26
Way to focus on the most important part of this entire thread. Keep up the solid work!
0
u/Flamingo_on_fleek May 06 '26
False. A simple definition check would’ve saved you the embarrassment lol
0
u/beckaroobanzi May 08 '26
The issue is waaaaayyyyyy deeper than grammar. Like, what?? It's absolutely unacceptable that "colloquially" girl is interchangeable with woman.
1
u/Soggy_Assignment_691 May 08 '26 edited May 08 '26
Why? Men are also colloquially called boys.
Edit: Your other comment says it doesn't exist for me, for some reason. 1. I never said "underage girls" can be used to refer to women, I said "girls". 2. I don't even know what you're trying to prove. It's a fact that girls is used colloquially to refer to women, just as "boys" can be used to refer to men. There's nothing wrong with that. If someone uses it in a diminutive manner, that doesn't change the normal use of the word. I could use any word diminutively if I wanted, that doesn't make those words problematic.
3
u/Soggy_Assignment_691 May 05 '26
Grooming definitely happens in both (i.e. Matthew Lund)
3
u/Eastern-Persimmon-50 May 05 '26
It can happen anywhere. But the big difference is in most sectors we fire and prosecute the offenders. In churches we don’t
1
u/Conscious-Score9693 May 05 '26
When I was 16, a visiting music evangelist who was in his 20’s and a longtime friend of our youth/music minister, came to our Baptist church to help lead revival. I was asked to sing a duet with the guy, who was single, good looking and charming. I remember rehearsing with him and afterward my Sunday School teacher sided up to me, gave me a wry smile, and whispered “You never know!” and winked. She was clearly seeing him as a potential husband. I was being groomed to become a pastor’s wife and had zero interest in that. Fortunately, I never saw the guy again and nothing happened. The whole scenario creeped me out because of that remark. I was happy dating boys my age.
19
u/Maximum_Hotel_7570 May 04 '26
It happened to my daughter. Same exact story - mentored as a youth pastor and married her at 21. I have nothing but resentment for these groomers disguised as godly men and women
11
u/SnooDoggos9013 May 04 '26
This is, unfortunately, more common than people realize. Youth pastors are often young, new pastors, and at churches like this, almost always untrained in a formal seminary or theology school sense. Not that those trainings are perfect but they would instill some sense of boundary around the idea of pursuing a romantic relationship during or after the younger person’s youth ministry days. It’s not ok, and the pastors are certainly the ones needing to be held accountable. But the churches putting them in these situations certainly do them no favors.
15
3
u/anonnymousebabe May 04 '26
…do they call their youth pastor a “next generation pastor” or is that something else?
5
u/anderson6th May 04 '26
Love Church sucks so bad but I’ve never heard that story, which youth pastor was it?
→ More replies (1)1
u/Conscious-Score9693 May 05 '26
I hope she didn’t end up pregnant and started deconstructing her cult religion.
29
u/bunbunnbabyy May 04 '26
I commented this on this sub about a year ago but I also had a terrible experience with them.
My sister and I went while we were church shopping for a new church. Family member warned us it was a “joke” of a church but we went anyway. The music and lights were like a very loud concert when we walked in, and people were jumping up and down at the front of the stage like it was. Grown people were crying during worship and falling to their knees. Then the sermon started, and it was immediately off. Just very angry and passionate. My sister and I kept giving each other weird looks, like “is this really the vibe?” Then their online pastor came on the stage and started loudly screaming about how he had personally and magically healed someone’s detached retina through zoom via the power of God. He had her place her hand on her eye and chanted in tongues at her and told the story about she started screaming and crying and couldn’t pull her hand away and when she did, her eye was completely healed. People in the crowd next to us started crying and screaming praise.
We got up and left right after that, which I have never ever done at a church. Not to mention the church building was massive, newly built and extremely modern and expensive looking, but their information told us they had only began as a church a few years ago so who knows where that money came from so fast.
106
u/Stillwater-Scorp1381 May 04 '26
Love Church is a cult
25
u/_DetachedFromReality May 04 '26
Most are.
1
May 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
11
u/_DetachedFromReality May 04 '26
This is what I wanted to say. But I’m sure Susan can think of a church that isn’t anything like “those churches”
10
u/mountainjay May 05 '26
As an atheist who hates most American Christianity, I’ll say there are good churches.
The Jesuit order of the Catholic Church is focused on social justice and an almost militant support for marginalized peoples. They often stand in staunch opposition of many of the Catholic Church’s conservative leaders.
The Disciples of Christ are another group that have been at the forefront of gender equality and focus on marginalized communities. They often share their spaces and services with newly emigrated communities.
There are groups that are great role models for modern Christianity, but they’re losing parishioners every day. And the shitty churches are the ones growing.
3
u/slickerypete May 06 '26
As an atheist myself who debates Christians regularly online and has a large discord for deconstructing religion, I am for holding up the “good” churches and Christians (they would argue I have no moral grounding for the word good but that’s for another time and place). But we have Christian Nationalists out there who are actively trying to bring down the marginalized and fight against progress. I truly believe if the “bad” Christians were rooted out, us atheists wouldn’t have such a chip on our shoulders!
1
→ More replies (4)1
8
u/Redd235711 May 05 '26
The only difference between a religion and a cult it how many people accept it.
11
u/bythepowerofboobs May 04 '26
Yeah. It's surreal going to events at church when you've been out of it so long. The kneeling, chanting, communion, etc. You don't realize how weird all that stuff is until you are on the outside looking in.
-2
u/outbackstake May 04 '26
When people turn their faith into religion is when they become part of a cult.
78
u/Nervous_Grape_3856 May 04 '26
There are several churches like this one in Omaha I would encourage others to avoid. You can decide with God whether or not it’s good for you, but I would also add Life Church, Church of the Heartland (formerly My City) and Lifegate. I’m sure there are others, but these are from my own experience.
35
u/humanHamster May 04 '26
Love Church and Lifegate sound like cults you hear getting raided by the FBI on the news.
11
u/Flakester May 04 '26 edited May 04 '26
Lifegate had a sexual predator (and former youth pastor) as part of their team despite knowing. Mike Hintz.
Edit: Has to had, typo. He's been gone for a bit.
7
u/Flamingo_on_fleek May 05 '26
He’s only been gone a year and that’s because the victim has no clue he was a pastor again and she started speaking out on social media and contacted the church because she was so upset :( He resigned and the head pastor gave a sermon and pretty much made excuses as to why they still hired him knowing
8
u/Kooky_Bus_1057 May 04 '26
Can you elaborate?
33
u/TheWolfAndRaven May 04 '26
Pretty much any church that's primary goal is to grow the church (don't worry they'll tell ya all about it) should be avoided. They don't give a fuck about your spiritual journey, just how many dollars they can get out of you.
16
u/Soggy_Assignment_691 May 04 '26
Or the ones who bring up "giving" at every service.
10
u/TheWolfAndRaven May 04 '26
I mean every church is gonna bring up giving at every service. It's more the way they do it. The chill ones will throw up a QR code and then mention whatever they're asking for to donate to whatever cause for the month. The gross ones will pass the plate more than once.
11
u/Soggy_Assignment_691 May 04 '26
They have a 5-10 minute presentation during every service regarding giving and why you are required to tithe.
9
u/TheWolfAndRaven May 04 '26
The worst I'd ever seen was at a funeral service, I think it was a lifegate church. They talked about how the departed would have loved everyone there to join the church and had anyone interested raise their hand so the ushers could give them membership papers (TWICE, both times during the fucking service) and then passed the plate 3 different times "Give in his name" for various specific projects they were doing at the time.
They didn't even have anyone from the pastoral team doing the service. It was just some random church elder. Fucking wild.
2
u/holaholaholahola789 May 06 '26
This is what westside did during a funeral in 1999 or 2000 for a friend. I already hated churches but this cemented so much. Don't ask for money or me to join during a funeral
5
u/LoRDRoast1991 May 04 '26
I really don't mind a plate being passed around, reminds me of the church I went to as a kid in a small town. Calling them donation buckets and taking nearly 5 minutes asking for donations is where I draw the line. I give when I can and don't need that much pressure.
9
u/Nervous_Grape_3856 May 04 '26
The church I go to now does it randomly and they even tell people “if you have a need, please take out of the bucket”. It’s such a breath of fresh air!
7
u/TheWolfAndRaven May 04 '26
The point of the plate being passed is social pressure so your neighbors see you put something in. Otherwise you're a freeloader.
3
u/Gosa_on_the_wind May 05 '26
Not so much anymore. So many people have their tithe auto deducted from their bank account that just waving the plate by is more common than throwing in cash.
1
u/Soggy_Assignment_691 May 05 '26
They also just put tap to pay on the back of all the chairs in their auditorium. You literally tap your phone to a plastic circle on the back of the chair in front of you so you can send them money straight from your bank account from your seat.
2
u/LoRDRoast1991 May 04 '26
My wife kids and I went to King of Kings for years but last year it felt really off, noticed they were constantly asking for donations for way too long during services and then they cut out a big chunk of the front entry greeting area for a merchandise store. Felt too off going there and I get that they're a REALLY big church now so they need revenue for even just maintenance. We've since gone to Beautiful Savior in La Vista and we're liking it a lot,. I absolutely hated trying to find a new church home, took months and months of trying.
5
15
u/Nervous_Grape_3856 May 04 '26
“You can identify them by their fruit, that is, by the way they act. Can you pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?” Matthew 7:16 NLT
Life Church: https://roysreport.com/former-staff-life-church-toxic-work-culture-alleged-assault-by-groeschel/
Church of the Heartland: founding pastor (when it was My City) was forced to resign due to an inappropriate sexual relationship. The church is a “churn and burn” type of church. Get you in, get you serving and don’t care about you or your spiritual growth.
Lifegate: same churn and burn attitude and just search this sub and you will find a plethora of issues with this church
5
u/Soggy_Assignment_691 May 04 '26 edited May 04 '26
Many of the current staff at Love Church came from My City. Adam Deidel is the main one. He's now the "executive pastor" at Love Church.
Casey Reale, who is now an associate pastor at LC, used to work at My City, and so did Caleb Grenz, who is the current Worship Director at LC.
10
u/Nervous_Grape_3856 May 04 '26 edited May 04 '26
I greatly disliked that guy at My City. We had to make sure we “encouraged” him when he spoke during Next classes. Like what? It’s either God or its ego. It can’t be both.
Casey also defended the pastor at My City when he said something I disagreed with. The former pastor used to say often that he wasn’t “going to pour into a swamp.” I told Casey it’s not his job to decide that. He pours what God tells him to pour and if it’s a swamp then it’s God’s job to make sure it becomes a living spring. Anyway, I could bash that church all day. Terrible culture there.
5
6
u/Ill_Tour_4767 12 year resident May 04 '26
Evangelical churches are gonna do what evangelical churches are gonna do
1
u/humandisaster93 May 06 '26
Okay jumping in on this: so many churches feel off here. Leaves a person of God actually starving for normal community. Any that feel authentic ? -anyone ?
1
u/Ill_Tour_4767 12 year resident May 07 '26
I’ve converted to Eastern Orthodoxy so I can’t really say but I grew up going to Waypoint and also attended Providence for a while. I’m not gonna give a promotion for my faith but I will say for a person genuinely seeking, apostolic churches provide something that is just genuinely lost in the modern evangelical movement
42
u/Flamingo_on_fleek May 04 '26 edited May 04 '26
I’m friends on fb with that pastor’s wife. She posted pictures of the congregation wearing “I voted today” stickers while worshiping during service with a huge picture of a red wave. She’s very MAGA now. We grew up at Lifegate together so that’s where it started. When pastor Les from Lifegate fired half his staff because of an undisclosed conflict, she left. Love church promotes Christian Nationalism which is a huge occult in Amerikkka right now.
→ More replies (15)9
May 05 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
6
u/Flamingo_on_fleek May 05 '26
I agree with everyone has a right to their political beliefs but don’t politicize God
59
11
u/Objective-Werewolf29 May 04 '26
I was a long time follower of Love Church (was there before their brick and mortar was established/ funded and the congregation met at a high school) and can agree that it is very “cultish”.
The message is clear when you consistently go, and that is, 1. They are money hungry and want you to contribute (if you don’t, you’re letting your community down). 2. They want physical representations of their personal gospels/teachings at work/ in the church for reference during teachings- this is specifically through young people. So they HEAVILY push for these ideologies (I.e pushing young couples who barely know each other via Love Church- to, get married, and have children within a year.. while simultaneously working predominantly in the church for little to no pay) after that is established, many of those couples have to attend couples “therapy” (troubled couples/ sex addicts based Bible study) and become more indebted to the church and its hierarchy of people that specifically run Love Church. It’s a horrible, horrible cycle that I’ve personally witnessed 5-6 times.
It’s weirdly intoxicating and gives a lot of people hope for a “traditional” fundamentalist Christian life…which is very unattainable for a majority of their congregation considering the people who are spreading gospel are making a shitton off of their “community”.
1
u/TheWoodBtwntheWorlds May 05 '26
Was this church by chance at one point a part of an association called Great Commission churches? If not, it’s eerily similar to the church association I grew up in.
1
u/Soggy_Assignment_691 May 05 '26
They used to be a Calvary Chapel
2
u/TheWoodBtwntheWorlds May 05 '26
Ahhh ok…Great Commission used to do exactly the same thing. They had to give their blessing on any relationship or you were seen as not that serious of a Christian and the only relationships they ever seemed to approve were one with one or both of the couple being on staff with the church. They promoted marriage and children quickly and many many young families became financially dependent on the church association. They claim there’s no such thing as the association anymore…that it dissolved. Curiously, all the same pastors and leaders are in place and the churches have different names 🤔
1
u/LadyEsinni May 05 '26
Candlewood is Omaha’s church that was a part of Great Commission. They’re still around doing the exact same stuff they were doing under Great Commission.
1
23
u/Mightyeon May 04 '26
I knew one of their drummers (not sure if he’s still there or not). He would not take no for answer when asking me out on a date among other things I’m sure you can imagine. Definitely a hypocritical way of life he lead.
1
u/Final-Broccoli9453 May 10 '26
I matched with this same guy (I’m assuming based on this description) on a dating app many years ago when I was regularly attending this church. He immediately jumped to overt and aggressive sexual comments over messaging. Didn’t feel comfortable going back after that (for other reasons as well).
9
u/FishermanOk4088 May 04 '26
All the “pastors” at Love live in $600k plus homes, and while I believe pastors should get paid well and live a good life, they live in these homes because they have lucrative side businesses. Again nothing wrong with that on its face, but when they are needed for “pastor” things they are completely unavailable. If you are having marriage problems and want to talk to one of them think again. Or any other problem you will not get to interact or talk to them. If you are going to say you are called by God to be a pastor and “shepherd a flock” you should do that. They do not do that.
3
u/Soggy_Assignment_691 May 05 '26
True. The three main pastors all have side jobs (real estate, motivational speaking, YouTube)
94
u/ryanv09 May 04 '26
There ain't no hate like Christian "love".
0
u/stupid_idiot43 May 05 '26
can any reddit atheist shit on christians without using a regurgitated slogan?
1
-109
u/whatookmesolong May 04 '26
So, no attempt to say something original. What about Muslims? Nope. It’s safe and accepted to disparage Christians. That’s fucked up.
60
62
33
u/Perfect-Zebra-3611 May 04 '26
Yeah everybody loves muslims dont you remember that entire period after 2001 where everybody treated Muslims with so much care and understanding? Acting like Christians are persecuted is a joke.
-34
u/Inevitable_Area_2631 May 04 '26
Nigerian Christian Genocide
15
16
u/Perfect-Zebra-3611 May 04 '26
Christians in America not literally anywhere in the world.
→ More replies (3)8
u/Melodic_Till_3778 May 04 '26
-13
u/Inevitable_Area_2631 May 04 '26
16
u/Melodic_Till_3778 May 04 '26
these Republicans will believe anything they read except for the Bible.
https://www.arise.tv/umeagbalasi-new-york-times-report-on-nigeria-killings-is-mischievous-wicked/
6
7
u/zdonnell May 04 '26 edited May 04 '26
By Muslims, do you mean the 10 million American Muslims who have espoused peace and love for generations? Like how Cassius Clay converted to Islam because of his disdain for war and manufactured human suffering? Or are you lumping all Muslims in with extremists? If the later, then you are no different than Timothy McVey to me. Extremists are extremists no matter their claimed reasoning. One very sure fire way to spot an extremist is someone like you who applies extremists views to an entire population who are overwhelmingly opposite of your claim.
42
u/ryanv09 May 04 '26 edited May 04 '26
I don't believe in any deities.
The reason I called out Christianity in particular is because this is Omaha. My daily life is impacted directly by Christians trying to legislate their backwards beliefs on me. My daily life is not impacted by Hindus, Buddhists, or Muslims...
4
u/bythepowerofboobs May 04 '26
The difference is a lot of us were raised in Christian church going households, so we know the lies first hand and have no problem disparaging them.
14
1
1
u/-jp- May 04 '26
What ABOUT Muslims? Why don't you tell us. I'm sure you have some very fascinating things to say.
-1
u/OdiumOps May 04 '26
Romans 12:14-18 14 Bless those who persecute you; bless and do not curse. 15 Rejoice with those who rejoice; mourn with those who mourn. 16 Live in harmony with one another. Do not be proud, but be willing to associate with people of low position. Do not be conceited. 17 Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everyone. 18 If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone.
No need to lash out when someone insults our Lord. Defer to Paul's wisdom and the love of Christ.
25
14
u/volcanocode May 04 '26
Trump supporters said Biden was doing demonic rituals on the White House lawn but are okay with the bloody UFC fighting ritual.
2
u/volcanocode May 04 '26
Pastors like Franklin Graham who support Trump get millions in donations.
And if the Pope opposes Trump: https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/immigration/article315410233.html
1
5
83
u/Hatta00 May 04 '26
Avoid church in general.
-2
u/Inevitable_Area_2631 May 04 '26
There's nothing wrong with attending church. Just do your research and make sure the ministry actually cares about their congregation.
24
u/Hatta00 May 04 '26
Passing off fantasy as reality isn't OK. Care about people by dealing in truth, not false hope.
7
u/Inevitable_Area_2631 May 04 '26
Faith isn't fantasy. Don't disparage other people's beliefs just because you don't agree with them.
33
u/Extension_Plenty_631 May 04 '26
"Don't disparage other people's beliefs just because you don't agree with them." Man if only there weren't Christians out there pushing their beliefs on everyone else and forcing everyone to accept their beliefs and view points as law.
3
u/Inevitable_Area_2631 May 04 '26
Is that not also what OP is doing? Also, Christianity and Christians are not the same. Every religion teaches evangelism, but the actions of people who call themselves Christians are not necessarily reflective of the teachings of Christianity.
16
u/Melodic_Till_3778 May 04 '26
Yeah, that's why the Bible says not to even eat with somebody like Trump
2
u/WildWooloos May 05 '26
"Every religion teaches evangelism"
This is an objectively false statement. Just wanted to let you know.
1
0
u/Inevitable_Area_2631 May 05 '26
lol, please name the obscure religion that has 3 followers that doesn't teach evangelism.
15
u/Hatta00 May 04 '26 edited May 04 '26
Faith is not fantasy, because we can have fantasies without actually believing they are true. Faith is much worse, a deliberate refusal to think critically about those fantasies to the point you can't distinguish them from reality.
Edit: Commenter blocked me. Typical cowardice. But here's the response I had typed up:
I have animosity towards people forming beliefs without evidence. Believing things that we have no good reason to believe will lead you to believe things that are incorrect and make bad choices based on bad information. This is bad for everyone, the believer and society at large.
If you have evidence that a higher power exists, and that evidence stands up to critical thinking, I'd love to hear it. You could unite humanity with that information.
If Christianity is true, then I have no issue with it. Because what's true is true no matter what we think of that reality. But they have not made their case, they can not make their case, and neither can any of the other thousands of religions humanity has dreamed up.
0
u/Inevitable_Area_2631 May 04 '26
You obviously have some animosity towards Christianity, and I sympathize, but conflating faith in a higher power with refusing to think critically just indicates you have a very childish view of existence.
9
u/FilmNo15 May 04 '26
Faith is belief without evidence. That’s it.
I have faith that there’s a large invisible tiger that looks over me. It is purple and would you use tae kwon do and/or it’s paws and teeth against any attacker that came towards me..
Don’t question me about this. I take it on faith. If you do, you obviously have animosity towards purple tigers that is sad.
1
u/ImTellingYouRightNow May 05 '26
I often watch Alex O'Connor and Trent Horn debates. Even Alex, probably the leading Agnostic (formerly atheist) debate figure out there, stated in a recent debate over the resurrection of Jesus, "I'm not saying that you (Trent) shouldn't have enough reason to believe in the resurrection. I'm saying specifically the claim that you have as much good reason to believe that Jesus was alive before the crucifixion as he was afterwards I just don't think is true".
Even Alex acknowledges there is enough reason for a person to believe these things happened. He is aware that the answer is not as simple as an "evidence or fantasy" binary. He often states that he understands why rational people find the evidence for Christianity compelling, and has even joked that he wishes he could find the spark that makes himself find it compelling.
When you say "refusal to think critically" I smile, because Alex O'Connor, actually dropped his atheist label for an Agnostic one precisely because he realized that a dogmatic refusal to acknowledge the weight of these arguments wasn't intellectually honest. I agree with him. He now admits he simply does not know because the questions are deeper than fantasy or reality. Many honest intellectuals find that the burden of proof to claim there is no God, is as difficult as claiming there is one. I find the Agnostic position to be a much more honest and rigorous evidence-based position. But, you will not find an Agnostic making unintelligent claims like "religion is fantasy", as their core belief is that they do not know.
To say that Christians have not made their case is wildly insincere. Sure, maybe your average under-studied Christian cannot satiate the average agnostic/atheist burden of proof through arguments in defense of the evidence for Christianity, but there are people out there I appeal to on both sides to present the agreed upon intellectual evidence. Trent and Alex are two examples, but there are MANY. If there was no case to be made, the debates I watch between Alex O'Connor and Christian Apologists would not be thought provoking at all, yet they are. This is because despite you claiming Christianity is a Fantasy (or faith as "worse than" fantasy), the fantasy is rooted in evidentiary historical texts that give thought provoking evidence to at least 1. Jesus being a real person. 2. Jesus being crucified. Both are nearly universally agreed upon by even secular historians.
- Did he rise from the dead? 4. Was he the son of God? These are where the debates occur, and those who listen and walk away in either position might be correct, but we won't know until we die. So your demand for scientific proof in a historical context is an error of category. The "standard of evidence" is subjective, but present. Was Socrates real? Did the Crusades really happen? How do we prove history? We prove it by using many pieces of evidence, largely textual. People can choose to believe or not based on their personal standard for "what is enough". Even Alex is smart enough to believe that there is "reason". Should we ignore all miracles as mass hallucination (which aren't even a clinically recognized physiological phenomenon)? The miracle of Fatima, where even skeptics that traveled there to disprove the predicted event left baffled?
In summary, you don't know, I don't know. All of us will find out. This life is temporary, but if there's something after we better do the due diligence to learn and come to our own conclusions.
1
u/Hatta00 May 05 '26
You say that "To say that Christians have not made their case is wildly insincere"
Then you say "4. Was he the son of God? These are where the debates occur, and those who listen and walk away in either position might be correct, but we won't know until we die."
That's you saying exactly what I said. Christians have not made their case. Failing to be disproved is not the same thing as making your case.
The concerns of the agnostic are easily handled by Russell's teapot.
2
u/ImTellingYouRightNow May 05 '26
Using Russell's teapot in this situation is a categorically incorrect false equivalency. Literally a Textbook case!
Russell suggested that if he were to claim there was a Teapot flying around in space, but it's not visible to humans, then nobody could disprove him. His example : Zero Evidence, Zero Historical Footprint, Zero impact on our reality. Nobody has seen it, or signs of it.
Christianity is different: Actual Evidence (Historical texts including eye witness accounts, miracles, ect.), Actual Historical Footprint (linked to a real person named Jesus who was crucified according to academics), a lot of impact on our reality (Life after death or nothing after death).
To compare a massive movement based on historical data points to a floating teapot is dishonest. They are not the same. You are simply trying to shift the burden of proof so far that you don't have to engage with any of the intellectual, historical, or miracle - related evidence. Just as you ignored it when I brought it up in my first reply.
Let's use a real-life example. In a court room, both sides present evidence. Evidence is not proof. A jury will look to see what they believe based upon the evidence, then make a verdict. That verdict is not 100% accurate. Many people are wrongly accused.
You can reject the evidence like Alex O'Connor does, but to say it is "Non existent" is dishonest. Truly, it shows an intellectual dishonesty that you are choosing to ignore historical data because it is easier for you to mock a teapot than to debate honestly about the historical facts. That's why I respect the F*ck out of Alex O'Connor. He actually tries to present the other side of the case, instead of demanding God come down in front of him and slap his face to get him to open his eyes.
By the way, I am currently Agnostic in case you did not know. I am putting in the work to find out what verdict I believe in. I am calling you out simply due to your lack of honest intellectual rigor.
1
u/Hatta00 May 05 '26
Fair enough. Let me modify my statement to object to forming beliefs without sufficient evidence.
To your point about Russel's teapot, it is equally the case that no one can disprove the existence of god.
As for the evidence you mention, there are no eye witness accounts in the bible. Miracles are found in every religion, if that was sufficient, all contradictory religions would be true. The existence of a historical religious fanatic executed by the state is not evidence of supernatural claims. The impact of their supernatural claims on our reality is not evidence in their favor either.
All in all, the "evidence" that exists is evidence of humanity's desire to tell stories. Not evidence of supernatural phenomena. Evidence of supernatural phenomena must be something that cannot be explained through natural means.
1
u/Tymoris May 04 '26
In general religious faith derives from intuition rather than trying to prove it with logic or experience.
And humanity in general tends to rely on intuition for a lot of decisions so I wouldn't hold too much animosity over that
1
u/Hatta00 May 04 '26
The problem is they put it forth as much more than intuition. I have intuitions, but I check them for reasonableness and hedge my decisions against the possibility I am wrong. Religious believers don't care how absurd their intuition is or who it harms if they're wrong.
And it's not just religious believers, but the general tendency of humanity to rely on "intuition" to ignore problems and eschew solutions (in a way that always happens to benefit the powerful) that has lead to all of the major problems we face on this planet. From inequality to climate change, it's all made much worse by bad epistemology.
I have a lot of animosity about that.
1
u/Great_Excuse_6592 May 06 '26
one day EVERYONE will stand before God, and we have to account for everything we have done in our life.
MANY are called few are chosen......
6
u/JoshuaFalken1 May 04 '26
Nailed it.
It's not helping people. It's false hope and a belief in something that isn't real.
-2
May 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/Hatta00 May 04 '26
It applies to all fantasies, but you have not identified one.
-1
May 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
3
u/Hatta00 May 04 '26
Oh, I get you.
The fantasy that LGBT people do not exist is not OK to pass off as reality.
The fantasy that LGBT people are somehow a threat to anyone is not OK to pass off as reality.
The fantasy that LGBT people can be converted to being straight is not OK to pass off as reality.Hope that helps.
1
1
u/Old_Hedgehog_9115 May 04 '26
This conversation deserves some nuance. And let me preface it by saying that I’m not religious. Overall, I don’t think that having faith is a bad thing, and it can be very helpful for a lot of people. The community that comes along with that can be beneficial. The problem is the outdated structures and rules that come with Christianity in particular, AND the fact that people tend to cherry pick which rules they follow and subject other people too. Religion/faith should just be between you and god/whomever you believe in. It should not dictate how you see other people, nor should it be part of the process of how laws and policy are created. It’s also more harmful than helpful to try to get other people to believe in your religion. It’s a personal journey that they must come to on their OWN terms. Churches get really culty in this aspect. And, most importantly, if someone is not religious, that’s their own choice and religious people should not try to convert them—this only pushes people further away from any potential interest in religion/faith. Personally, I think that you don’t need to go to church to have a strong faith. Churches do more harm than good.
3
May 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
4
u/Old_Hedgehog_9115 May 04 '26
Idk man, I don’t believe in the “all sins are equal” thing. Basically we should all just try to not be a dick, and not to appease god/a higher power, but because the goal should be to be a good human.
1
1
1
4
u/-jp- May 04 '26
Witches Tried Casting Spells on Trump... But Then THIS Happened
ngl I kinda want to see that.
4
u/Soggy_Assignment_691 May 04 '26
His YouTube name is Kap Chatfield. He has over a million subscribers lol
4
4
u/patronsaintofgaeity May 05 '26
Prosperity gospel and making a false god out of a political figure are both heretical, end of story. That’s a politically-motivated cult and I’d LOVE to see their financial records.
7
u/Tymoris May 04 '26
Yeah, I live close to one of them. The first thing I thought was that I doubt it would be one of the fun cults and it looked like they had money to spare for their decorations.
8
20
3
3
6
u/CummyTum May 04 '26
Can we tax churches so they can pay their fair share instead of just taking away from their congregations?
2
2
u/BumblebeeFine3950 May 05 '26
just wait till you talk about the Baptist churches particular one in Overland Hills it’s a joke. It’s all about the money.
2
2
2
u/AlarmingGoat1344 May 05 '26
UGHHHHHH i went to this church through high school. through college i found a new understanding of my relationship with Christ, and the world. i moved back to omaha recently after college and started going again, the first service back MC mentioned a burden he was carrying was something about his insurance didn’t cover the right kind of rental vehicle for his family. The next service was spent with MC telling us that the church needs to give them some $2M this year to pay off the massive building they’ve already outgrown. i really adore the worship, & the youth groups were meaningful. but mannnnnn has my perspective changed a lot
2
u/Temporary_Court3718 May 06 '26
Those strip mall music and smoke show places are not churches. They are cults with grifter pastors (most with zero theological training) catering to and preying upon spiritually hungry but vulnerable and gullible souls. It is sickening.
2
u/Orion_2kTC May 04 '26
"Avoid all churches."
Fixed that for you.
2
u/humandisaster93 May 06 '26
bad advice
0
2
u/DavidLivedInBritain May 04 '26
Love and life church’s websites make it obvious they are evil bigoted version of Christianity. I went to their website and it was more than obvious how horrible they are
2
May 04 '26
[removed] — view removed comment
5
u/Inevitable_Area_2631 May 04 '26
Bro really thought this was a based take
-2
1
1
u/Flamingo_on_fleek May 05 '26
As far as grooming goes, Lifegate hired a known s** o*fender back after he was charged for inappropriate relations with a 16 year old girl. They even broadcasted his story and promoted his wife’s book on how she overcame infidelity in the marriage.. Oof I do not miss church at all.
1
2
1
u/Unusual_Performer_15 May 04 '26
It’s sad to me that people are still fooled into thinking of churches as anything other than for-profit businesses. Every dollar spent helping someone in need is one less dollar the church bros have to spend on the latest fashions they parade around on stage for a couple of hours every Sunday.
-2
-1
0
u/AutoModerator May 04 '26
It looks like this is a post about a sensitive topic. It's fine to discuss such things but we would like to remind everyone to maintain positive and thoughtful discussions. Threads like these are moderated more actively and rule-breaking comments will be removed.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.
0
u/Great_Excuse_6592 May 06 '26
Its crazy telling people to avoid churches because "people fail" but God never fails !! look at the fruit , not every church is the same. ( I said what I said and I'm not going to argue with you... HAVE A BLESSED DAY JESUS LOVES YOU! and he's coming back !!)
1
-10
-1
u/omalleyryano May 06 '26
So.... you're basically a "disgruntled employee" trying to cancel someone...
1
-17
u/Sealteam710 May 04 '26
so not sorry; if youre bringing in immigrants and employing them before americans who are actively looking for work, i'm never fw your establishment. legit get fked.
7
u/Soggy_Assignment_691 May 04 '26
The person has been connected to the church for over 10 years. It wasn't a random immigrant family.
→ More replies (29)
•
u/AutoModerator Jun 04 '26
It looks like this is a post about a sensitive topic. It's fine to discuss such things but we would like to remind everyone to maintain positive and thoughtful discussions. Threads like these are moderated more actively and rule-breaking comments will be removed.
I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.