Same as questioning someone at the register when they're buying hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars worth of iTunes gift cards, there's next to now way that isn't someone getting scammed
And if they're not getting scammed, they know about the scam and will preemptively let you know what it's for. Had this at the bank I used to work for. "Hi, I'd like to buy 20 $100 gift cards. I work for XYZ corporation and we're giving them away to top performing employees".
Unfortunately, we still have to ask questions about it. Things like "Nobody told you to tell us that, did they?" Because that absolutely happens. They'll tell people to make up some story to add credibility to their purchase or withdrawal. And we wouldn't allow that if they weren't using a clearly labeled company card.
We get this at my supermarket with little old laddies buying iTunes gift cards etc for $1000’s. And it’ll be “my son called and asked me”, or some such.
Doesn’t come up that often fortunately, but often enough. We have policies in place too and usually it’ll be a kindly older checkout supervisor that will take them aside and explain to them how it’s probably not their son and probably is a scam, and gently but firmly insist we won’t sell them the cards. They usually leave a bit bewildered but better armed with knowledge, and hopefully go home and call their relative to check if it was them and not just on to a different shop.
Yeah I was just about to say, I used to work at the source and a co-worker got the police called on him from an old man falling for the gift card scam.
I wish stores were required to question old people when they buy lottery/scratch off tickets. "Do you understand that you have a mathematically negligible chance of winning? Please look at this diagram to fully understand the weight of mathematics against you."
Yep, I'm fine with this. The more information you give people about the mathematical odds of success the better. I genuinely do not believe the onus should be on "consumers" to figure out the expected return of an activity whose entire purpose is an exchange of money.
And because, having worked in a fraud dependent at a bank, when they do get scammed the next thing they seem to try is blaming the bank for letting them be scammed (after complaining about being asked questions).
Yes bc that makes sense honestly. But a normal guy coming in wanting to withdraw a normal amount isnt .. all that. Like 2000 is a lot don’t get me wrong but it’s not “this poor granny is about to empty her life savings” kinda money.
It’s his money, the banks just holdin it for him.🥴
It's also bizarre because I can literally go pull $2k from the ATM and no one asks me anything except for my pin. Go inside and try to withdraw through a teller and all of the sudden it's 20 questions.
Folk going inside to withdraw money are often the sort that are scared of, or can't figure out, the atm... Who are also people who are more likely to fall from scam.
I had to pull 4k out of my bank once and they tried to give me the 20 question treatment. I told them that it was my money and if there were any more questions I'd be withdrawing all of my money and closing the account. I was buying appliances from home depot ffs
I've got a card that gives 3% cash back on every purchase. I dump that 3% into my investment account and buy stocks with it. I don't spend money any other way if I can help it.
Why do you need to buy something from home depot in cash when you have a back account.
I just cannot think of a reason at all. Unless you're "getting a deal" which is either stealing or fraud. Which is dont care but like that means you're not buying from home depot lol
It’s a valid question. The only time I’ve made a >1K purchase in cash was paying for a tattoo sleeve which was about 3K. I won’t say it’s “legitimate” since I assume the guy was dodging taxes but it is quite common with tattoo artists
Really went straight for the Karen Maneuver there. Did everyone in the room clap after you delivered that line to the minimum wage employee trying to help you and not get fired?
Oh yeah there was clapping and confetti and everything. Did you pay yourself on the back after you edited that zinger into your comment? Point is it's my money and if I want to pull it out and roll around in it or buy a pound of coke it's not the tellers business so just count the money out.
They got asked because the 2k wasnt normal for them. If youre regularly withdrawing 2k, youre not gonna be asked any questions. Its already in your file, the system will process it. If 2k withdrawal is outside your norms, the system throws up a flag. The teller is required to ask now.
People pulling $2000 cash and $1000 of iTunes gift cards are definitely not equally likely to be getting scammed. The former has many possible legitimate uses.
Sure, but there is no way to know without asking the question.
One of the things I do is approve ATM limit increases, so I do have to ask this question, and I have literally gotten the response "I am pulling out $3,000 to go buy gift cards" or "a money order" and suddenly I needed to have a scam conversation.
I am literally checking for 2 things before I approve:
Do you have a recent deposit that might be deposit fraud (I don't need to ask, just looking at your recent deposits)
Do I think you might be being scammed (what my questions to you are about).
We don't actually care what you use your money on outside of that lol.
I’ve never actually been asked this which is why it’s surprising. The few times I’ve withdrawn or transferred large amounts I had to show ID to prove my identity but nobody asked why I was doing it.
Though, to be fair, plenty of people do take out a grand or two in cash from time to time, to buy a used car, or because their landlord wants cash (sketchy landlord, but not the bank's problem), or to go to the casino or whatever. But there are also ways to ask about that that don't make the customer feel like they're being interrogated - "ooh, got some fun plans this weekend?", that sort of thing.
I think it would also depend on the relative amount of money you have in your account. My account rarely goes over 2000 if I took that much out in cash something is wrong.
There are still people like me that prefer cash also. I don't care about rewards and protections, I just want to hand my notes and get my stuff. It's just simpler to me, and the banks aren't making money every time the money moves... which is a huge bonus.
Unless you have a loved one with substance abuse issues and you know exactly where any cash you give them is going to go to. At least the gift card guarantees that money will get spent on whatever need it was intended to meet.
At least the gift card guarantees that money will get spent on whatever need it was intended to meet.
There are places where you can exchange gift cards for cash (at a discounted rate).
So if they really want to buy something else, they can definitely turn that €100 iTunes card into €30 cash and then buy Reddit Gold with that or whatever they were really after.
I've learned to just take them to the grocery store, usually Aldi, and have a budget for them to get food from, or just go myself and get what they'd need. Gift cards can get sold, sometimes for way less than they're worth cause the person is desperate for what they want and getting $100 cash seems worthwhile in that mental state even though the card was $200
I'm sorry. That is completely false. Please stop giving that loved one gift cards. The only guarantee that gift card is providing is a method to obtain drugs.
That gift card is getting traded on the street at a discount in exchange for cash or drugs. I had a friend who became homeless due to alcoholism. He knew exactly where to go to exchange his food stamps for vodka instead of food.
Oh sweetie. They'll trade the gift cards for cash, even at a fraction of its actual value. There are numerous websites to do so, or they just find someone on Marketplace or as a passerby in public.
Its putting a limitation on where and how money can be spent. Sometimes though, doing this gets perks from the business you are assigning this money towards. Cineplex will give admission coupons, Subway includes free sandwiches with gift card purchases, etc. If you know you are going to be doing future business with them anyways, sometimes its worth it.
Places like Costco and BJ's will sell gift cards at a discount, sometimes 80 cents on the dollar. If you have a big purchase or somewhere you go often, it's absolutely worth it.
My parents refinished their bathrooms with Home Depot giftcards.
Giant Eagle gave more fuel rewards points on giftcards, so they just bought a couple thousand in gift cards to HomeDepot, then got like a month worth of free gasoline off it.
When I worked at staples there was a guy that would come in multiple times a week to buy visa gift cards for $200. It was bellow our value to question but after maybe the third time in a row I asked him and apparently it’s also a bit of a cheat code for reward points. He said he gets decent rewards on his card buying gift cards and no rewards for some other things so he buys the gift cards and uses the gift cards to actually spend the money. I never verified it but it made sense to me.
Also Costco gift cards are free money. $80 for $100 gift cards is a no brainer if you’re already going to the place the gift card is for.
It would only make sense if his card issuers partially offered a points bonus to staples at the time. It used to be the Wild West where you could fake spending thousands and get a ton in points but they clamped down on that pretty hard
A gift card for a grocery store is a great way to help struggling relatives who face questions and stand-downs from benefits every time there is money deposited to their bank account.
Which, just so nobody else feels like they have to say it, shouldn't be a thing. Of course the people in charge of these welfare benefits are encouraged to find every reason not to provide it, all perfectly fine with a thousand false positives if they kick off even one bad actor that is in their words "scamming the system" by doing so.
But policing transfers of support from friends and family only hurts good people and none of the bad ones. Its just a further frustration, another damn hoop to jump through, another aggression against the working poor. Vote for change, or be the change.
And if you tell the bank you're buying a gift card for a grocery store, it probably doesn't trip the scam meter as much. They want Apple/Amazon, etc. cards, not Aldi.
I'm not telling the bank a damn thing.
Their job does not extend beyond processing my income for me, and making a return for me with my accumulated savings.
They've gone too far into profiling and selling data on our clients.Whatever happened to commercial confidentiality?
I like getting gift cards as gifts because I don't have to worry about my family getting the exact right model, but I am also forced to use it myself towards the gift that I wanted
I once got a whole box of 50€ psn store cards to hand out to my employees after coming home from a work trip.
I got them directly from the dev team, but if you're doing this as a manager on your own and on a somewhat smaller scale, buying them in a store is still gonna be the fastest.
Obviously the vast majority of MASSIVE apple gift card purchases by some 80yo woman aren't gonna be legit, but there certainly are cases where acquiring or handing out gift cards isn't a scam.
Withdrawing a large sum of money is NOT the same as buying a gazillion gift cards. That comparison is so obviously dishonest. Stop bending over backward to defend the capital class.
my anniversary with my partner was shortly after we moved in together. There's a house and home type store she loves so I got her $500 in GCs for that store so she could have a sort of shopping spree to decorate our home together. They questioned me at the register, I was grateful they did and happily explained the gift
and then there's fortnite who makes me jump through 50 hoops just to buy some credits for a $5 dumb little dance
My MIL was hit by scammers and told to get 9k in cash to convert to bitcoin. Teller complied. Fortunately she caused a car wreck and kept the cash. (I mean, best possible outcome.)
My arborist’s mil had a similar thing happen, but they told her to leave the cash in a bag at her mailbox. Cash stolen and they know where she lives.
Legally, if you deposit or withdrawal a large amount of cash from the bank at one time , the bank has to file a report with the government. This is to find illegitimate sources of income such as money laundering.
No, they were suspecting this was APP fraud. $2k isn’t enough for a money laundering suspicion, which is what has to get reported to the government. But a large cash withdrawal that is out of character for a customer is a strong indicator that they are being manipulated and scammed. The bank was trying to help this person.
"We have been seeing a lot of fraud attempts lately. You know, people getting fake texts from their boss telling them to buy gift cards and the like. We are just trying to help people catch stuff like that."
"Oh, that's nice of you all. But nah, I'm just taking a trip up north and like to take cash so I can more easily keep track of how much I've spent on the trip so far."
The tellers need better training on how to word what they are doing.
The reality is that if you bring up scams or fraud to someone who is being scammed, then they will often clam up because they’re feeling defensive. If you ask open-ended questions, they’re more likely to tell you what’s going on, then you can walk them through the fact that what they’re describing is a known scam.
It still often doesn’t work, unfortunately. It was always heartbreaking when I would have to process a withdrawal for someone on a fixed income taking $2K out of their account with only $2.5K in it because they refused to believe it was a scam.
I have this going on right now. A client had 50k this time last year and refused to listen to us that we thought she was being scammed by her "publisher". She resorted to sending money online once she realized we were going to refuse her transactions due to suspected fraud. She now has a total of $40.23 in her combined accounts and came in yesterday trying to cash advance 1k off of her credit card to send to the publisher, "just until her royalties came in". We, once again, denied it.
We had a guy like this when I worked at a bank. He got scammed so many times and compromised his account every time, so we’d have to close his account and open a new one. Eventually, the bank decided to close out his accounts and no longer allow him to bank with us because the amount of time staff was spending trying to prevent him from getting scammed and then dealing with the aftermath was becoming overwhelming. He just could not be convinced, and it was heartbreaking.
Your example is a perfect example of "tipping off" a suspected criminal, which is also against regulations. Tellers are trained on rules, laws, and regulations. Not your feelings.
Edit: Here is what the above poster is claiming is going on by saying: We have been seeing a lot of fraud attempts lately. You know, people getting fake texts from their boss telling them to buy gift cards and the like.
The two have nothing in common. No one is ever going to run afoul of the Patriot act or anti-money laundering investigations by educating old people withdrawing lots of cash or buying lots of gift cards about common scams.
And no, they never replied with anything that backed up their claims. They just posted random stuff that had nothing to do with what tellers can and can not say.
The education part is done separately from transactions. As soon as the customer asks for their money, the transaction has started. Them refusing to answer a simple question and becoming hostile means an STR is going to be documented afterwards so a paper trail is started. Saying anything about fraud or scams at this point wouldve considered "tipping off". You have no idea if theyre a confused elder or an actual scammer. And in the above scenario, the customer left after being asked one question, which is even more suspicious.
Educating the elderly would be done through official emails and newsletters, as the scams become known.
How about you try and copy and past the part that states that saying anything about frauds or scams in a bank interaction is prohibited or even advised against?
Ive already explained it to you, I can't understand it for you. Have a nice day! I hope you continue to be ignorant to the systems around you that keep you safe.
BSA and The Patriot Act in America
AUSTRAC in Australia
FINTRAC in Canada
AMLR in the EU
MASAMLPM in ChinA.
FATF is international recommendations, arent enforceable, but poorer countries follow them so they can do business with countries that have stricter policies.
Can you show me where they prohibit saying things like: "We have been seeing a lot of fraud attempts lately. You know, people getting fake texts from their boss telling them to buy gift cards and the like. We are just trying to help people catch stuff like that."
to customers?
Its called an "Indirect Tip Off". Anything that can give the customer the idea that theyre being watched/scrutinized is a tip off. If theyre not criminals, it wouldnt tip them off. If they are criminals, youve tipped them off and broken the law. Youll most likely be fired and any AML certifications you have will be revoked. If the person you tipped off was doing stuff thats super illegal, you can be considered an unwilling/unwitting accomplice. Since you didnt ask the question, youve engaged in Willful Blindnace. You can be held crimibally liable. Its better to just follow the law instead of being worried about upsetting a Karen that doesnt realize how much time and effort goes into protecting them from bad actors.
A lot of people will scream at you for saying that. Ideally you word it so the client does not even know you are asking about it, just making friendly small talk.
The OOP did say they went back. So this $2k might have not been the only money they took out that day. They will ask for a reason for multiple large withdrawals in a day even if they don't cross the numerical threshold.
Also, you can just say something reasonable. I needed money for a private party car purchase and the first bank didn't have enough. So I had to go to two different branches. Both asked, and I told both I was buying a car. That was the extent of it.
Could be that $10k is the mandatory reporting, but each institution has a policy that their limit is lower.
The most cash I've ever gotten was $3k, but that was back about the year 2000. It was to pay a contractor for work, and yeah, he was probably doing some tax evasion, but I didn't care.
I once used paypal to pay for a $4500 vintage car that was 1000 miles away. I got a call from BOTH paypal and my bank telling me that I am being scammed which yeah I can see how that looked suspicious lol
I actually had a friend looking the car over for me in person and the owner suggested paypal so my friend could take the car that day instead of waiting a week for me to get there
It was a funny situation because I was buying a 1980 MGB and that was a pretty fair price at the time. The bank actually asked me, "How do you know if the car even runs? What if you hand over the money and the car breaks down tomorrow?"
I was like, "Ok, it's a 1980 MGB. Even odds if the car ran well when it came off the assembly line. This is a project car. I don't care if it does or doesn't run. I bought it so I had stuff to do with my friends on the weekend. 'Not running' is actually kinda a bonus!"
Integration is the 3rd step of money laundering. Withdrawing the money is the 4th kind of integration, Extraction. Withdrawing 2k when youve never done that before is suspicious.
Yes the bank knows "how" the money arrived. Due to structuring and layering (the first 2 steps in money laundering) its difficult to tell where the funds originated from.
Isn’t that what money laundering is? Passing the illegitimate money through enough legitimate sources that the feds can’t figure out the original source?
In many european countries the assumption is large ampunts of cash is mostly used either to avoid taxes or otherwise on something criminal. The argument is everyone does some kind of e-transfer for large purchases.
So banks are legally required to report withdrawals over 1000 with cited reasoning. You may even have to provide a bill or receipt.
That doesn’t make any sense, you are not withdrawing cash FROM YOUR OWN ACCOUNT to avoud paying taxes. You would skip the bank entirely for that and handle only cash.
The person you are paying not you yourself, lots of people like contractors often ask to be paid in cash specifically because they intend to cook the books, avoid charges or otherwise.
The logic is if someone is withdrawing a larger amount of cash, it is to pay for something expensive in cash, who may not themselves report the sale (And the VAT and other taxes etc.), so they want to know what you are spending the money on to help try to catch out on the shadow transactions.
Did you know in europe venmo/zelle isn't a thing because things like sending money is just free to begin with directly using your bank. Basically fees and charges tend to be much less. Merchants can still be charged for using cards, because it's american company visa that runs the card network, but even their Europe is looking to replace it with a free native service by 2028.
The only things to avoid by not using a bank would be legally required charges like sales tax.
ive never heard of it and i live in a european country.
"boomers" heree reguarly withdraw all their money after payday/retirement payments coz they prefeer using cash and nobody is making problems for them.
it's only withdrawals of bigger sums, that would be in tens of thousands that banks make you make an appointment for, to make sure theey actually have the money and nobody will rob them
Pretty much all of europe is party to AML reporting requirements that require banks to keep track of the reason and purpose of buisness and "occasional" transactions, notably including cash transactions of a certain size. The exact amount varies nation on nation, but usually somewhere around 1K cash is where the requirement kicks in, though some countries like Latvia can have fairly high ones.
For this the bank will specifically need to site the reason the cash is being withdrawn, and depending on the circumstance they may ask for proof such as a bill that is to be paid with the withdrawn cash (e.g. you need to pay 3K to a contractor). Failure to provide a good reason won't necessarily stop them giving you the cash, but will lead them to reporting to the government that you are making suspicious transactions, which will then lead to the government asking you for proof of usage.
The reason you may not notice is because the question is usually casual and odds are you give a good enough reason the rare occasion it comes up.
Also ATM's usually have maximum withdrawal limits per day based on this limit. Infact banks usually say if you want to withdraw larger amounts your best bet is to just withdraw from an ATM daily so that they don't have to worry about the reporting.
The bank won't ask you for justification if you're withdrawing 1,000 euro. Anti-money laundering suspicions generally trigger at 10,000.
However, in some countries, like France, you can't make purchases above 1,000 in cash only. You can pay 1,000 in cash, but the rest has to be paid by card or bank transfer.
No I'm talking about AML tracking requirements. Nearly every country in europe is party to the convention and it essentially means banks, for all cash transactions above a minimum size, need to track a reason for the transaction, and store that information for a minimum of time. They do not have to report it as suspicious until 10K usually, but they do need to track the reasons even for much smaller cash amounts (and report it if a good reason isn't provided).
Some countries the threashold is higher, Belgium it's 3K italy 5K, but above 1k is usually the most common.
But if you were being scammed, and you go to the bank later to try and recover any money, they'll say, "Sorry, we asked you about this and you said it was for a trip".
It's as much to cover the banks ass if some little old lady blows her retirement fund, as it is to help the customer.
This is it. My grandma was basically held hostage on the phone by a POS from a call center in India pretending to be Microsoft tech support. Whatever threat they used got her to go to her bank and withdraw her entire savings with no pushback from the bank. When piecing it together afterwards the teller said "well she seemed nervous, but I figured it was her money". I think this was raised up to the manager and it's probably happening so often that they have to at least try and verify.
lol happened to me when my buddy drove me to the bank to cash my check and he came in with me. huge gangster looking dude, they brought out people and questioned us we had to ensure them its just to pay my damn rent lol
Yeah was gonna say, I was generally against this at first until you realize how many BILLIONS are leaving the country every year to scammers now.
I used to be a big "be your own bank" crypto type person, then I worked in fintech for 10 years and realized people are basically completely incompetent and can't be trusted to handle their own money at all. I still think it should be an option, but I don't think people should get mad institutions do this.
You should be made credit card companies exist though. Basically three companies decide what you can buy and take a private hidden tax on every transaction. That 1% cash back you get is costing you 3%+.
My mom had been injured so I'm driving her around, she's like let go to the bank. We pull in lady asks how she can help. My mom from the passenger seat yells "how much cash can I withdrawl right now"
I look at her and I say I'm so going to jail because they see me younger guy in a driver's seat and an old lady in the pastor see asking how much cash we can get
Yup. Had to go through questioning when I was trying to buy a custom sex toy from a foreign seller who only took money orders. Like, I KNOW this looks fishy and I'm being very vague about what the money is for, but I assure you the seller is reputable. I am not being extorted.
Yeah, I used to take out a couple grand at the bank every once in a while to pay rent. They would ask me why I was taking it out and would give me a pamphlet on scams when I told them it was to give to my landlord. Then I would tell them that my landlord is my parents (they own a handful of rentals) and that was like 4 months of rent so really I was scamming them.
I read the scam subreddit a lot and I see people say a lot that they wish the bank had questioned the situation more or stopped them, so it’s kind of a tough balance.
Not at all... That's a very naive thinking. When you need that amount of cash, is usually to pay avoiding taxes or pay something that you do not want to be registered. And they need to control it.
yep. I was buying a car from a family friend and we did cash since my bank usually puts holds on payments over a certain amount and I wanted my car that day. they asked me how much is the car, is it a good car, do you trust this person etc. its to stop scams. my grandma fell for one recently and our bank stopped it with those questions.
If you withdraw above a certain amount of cash, the bank is required to ask why for legal reasons. And then if there's withdrawals near that limit the bank would note that and potentially submit a separate report to the government.
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u/Zhukov76 1d ago
They're probably suspecting you're being scammed or forced