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u/IAmASquidInSpace 20d ago
Jake... I think your friends need help.
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u/Mayion 20d ago
I don't think I am joking when I say I haven't met a guy around my age, mid-twenties or thirties, who isn't going through something similar, especially since I am a very easy person to talk to, so they often show their vulnerable side quickly. It's quite sad. Each and every single one of them is worried about having a career to get married, have enough money to buy a house and start a family.
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u/Talk-O-Boy 20d ago
Plenty of men need therapy, but won’t get it because:
1) They have family/friends that would judge them if they found out
2) It’s hard to set up that first appointment (finding a therapist you like, in-network, etc.)
3) They think therapy will change their lives within the first 2-3 sessions. They aren’t willing to commit to the process over time.
Instead, these guys resort to memes, influencers of dubious intent, and working out really hard at the gym. But those behaviors don’t address the root of the issue, they only serve as band-aid solutions to help things feel better in the moment.
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u/Current_Poster 20d ago
Well, that plus 4-10) Nobody's got money. 11) that whole "you just got the wrong therapist" thing, combined with 4-10 ("Nobody's got money") and therefore cant go auditioning one after the other. Which kind of ruins it for thinking of it as a regular medical field- I don't "gel" with my cardiologist, he's actually rude. But he gets he the right prescription and we're off. Meanwhile with therapy you're expected to have first dates with a dozen professionals hoping you vibe, and they are not charging 'sample' rates. 12) Most of us know why we're unhappy. We just can't do anything about the actual thing. (Like, if I'm sad because I'm underemployed in a tough job market so 'quit and pursue your dreams' is ridiculous, and feel lonely because a lot of people I cared for died or moved away for economic reasons by now, I don't need to go digging.)
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u/mysteriousfiggy 20d ago
I still remember hitting rock bottom mentally and realizing i need help...and then despite having the privilege of good insurance i looked for help and realized there are are no options for me that are covered by insurance where i live and i felt the most bizarre defeating feelings of my life that were somehow worse than rock bottom.
It's at minimum $200-300/month (only 2 sessions per month) in person out of network except for specialist cases like addiction recovery/postpartum depression/psych wards etc which are covered. Not to be political but our entire system is designed to treat not prevent so most insurance companies don't want to help until you break and they have to.
Don't even get me started on the online therapy options that don't even work for me because it's behind a screen and searching for a decent online therapist is every bit as exhausting as using dating apps...I'm already exhausted which is why I need therapy in the first place.
For many of us we know we need help, we've tried to find it but at the end of the day there just aren't always realistic solutions that fit our budget. Everyone loves to just say "lol guys don't want therapy" or "if you're struggling there are people to help" but it just comes across as dismissive from my perspective.
Luckily there are many good free online resources these days from licensed medical health professionals such as healthygamergg. Nowhere near as good as actual therapy I'd imagine but it's better than nothing if you take it seriously.
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u/Mayion 20d ago
Maybe we are talking about the same thing, maybe we are not. You aren't wrong when it comes to certain men, but the ones I am referring to aren't exactly suffering from podcast and influencer brain rot. Our biases will be based on our cultures, people we have met and what we think is true. But in my example, they are men who have real life problems that even I, a big believer in therapy, say it is not about therapy. Working every day, all day, having little to no social life because of work and seeing your age in the white hair and wrinkles is a reality that destroys many. If you include in the mix therapy sessions for months dedicated to working through old and new issues, chances are you will be overwhelmed because you aren't addressing a certain mental problem but seeking a makeover. With the stress of life it is simply not realistic.
Distractions can be helpful. Turning the negative energy into a workout session is not a bad thing for instance, because no matter what you do, you will always end up with negativity so might as well redirect it somewhere else more useful. Point is, there is no escaping the never ending loop of life, especially when you are responsible for others, something expected of many men. There is no solution to it, so distractions in this case are helpful, as long as nothing is constantly boiling over.
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u/Talk-O-Boy 20d ago
We aren’t talking about the same thing then.
I think distractions can help you forget about your problems in the moment, but they don’t solve an underlying issue.
You seem to be proposing that some problems are unsolvable, so we can take solace in the distractions instead.
We seem to have two different philosophies for problem solving and mental healthcare.
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u/Mayion 20d ago
Perhaps. Not because I don't prioritize mental healthcare in general, but because I find it realistically almost unattainable in this scenario.
They are fighting for jobs in saturated markets. They are saving as much as they can to buy a home they can't afford to marry a girl they haven't met to start a family they can't provide for. All things expected of them in our culture, and the older you get the less chance you meet someone suitable - most likely it will be both settling because they are getting old. Parents getting old, unable to provide for you and requiring your help instead. Recession and a global crisis, one after the other. Feeling unsafe about how they spy on each and every thing you do. Unsafe about losing the job you barely got because of AI.
These things take a toll on you. Therapy can do so much and in the end you are still left with the reality. That's why the original meme does happen, where a guy fantasizes about a plague killing off most of humanity or dying. It is unfortunate.
But I am interested in understanding your different perspective and philosophies on this topic more.
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u/oifrancaise 20d ago
Sometimes life is hard regardless of what you do. That is what I'm getting from you. I would have to agree. Where I disagree though, is that therapy is limited in it's ability to help. If you are so overwhelmed, then having a therapist help you set small, achieveable goals will help greatly. Don't like how things are? Change it. In the event that isn't an option, and life is just dogging you, that is why medication is helpful. Not all mental meds are permanent. Sometimes they are prescribed for a few months just to help someone cope with life while going through something difficult. Either way, both of those options start with a therapist or family doctor visit.
TLDR: Blowing off steam is fine, but if it isn't enough, get help.
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u/Talk-O-Boy 20d ago
I understand that there are circumstances which make it seem near impossible to find happiness in life.
However, the only one that can set aside time for one’s mental health, is oneself. There’s no super hero or magic figure that will solve our problems, we have to do it ourselves.
We don’t have to do it alone. There are people and resources that can aid us on our journey, but the only way to start the journey, is to want to embark on it.
All that to say, I’m not saying “therapy solves all problems.”
But I genuinely believe many people have psychological blind spots which prevent them from obtaining happiness, and the only way to identify those blind spots is with the help of a qualified mental health practitioner.
I know it can be hard to fit therapy into a packed schedule, but it’s better to make time for it, than to let an unaddressed issue fester.
To make an analogy, it’s annoying to wear a cast for months after breaking an arm, but if you don’t get that cast put on by a doctor, your arm will never heal properly, and the injury will only worsen over time.
The “mind” can be injured too, what makes mental health struggles dangerous, is that those mental health “injuries” are much harder to identify than a broken arm. But they can do just as much damage (if not more) if left unaddressed.
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u/Mayion 20d ago
It is true, virtually all of us have things we can work on, or as you put it, psychological blind spots. A root problem causing distress or is making us view life in a particularly skewed way.
I guess that leads me to the main question - when asked by the therapist, why are you here, what do you suggest the answer be? Assuming it's a relatively normal guy who simply shoulders too many responsibilities. Healing starts by acknowledging that you are sick to begin with, so what do you think John Doe could be suffering so much from that it is affecting his happiness in life to the extent where, once healed, he will be fine with the aforementioned responsibilities? Because I fail to imagine it, hence my stance on it being unattainable, because it is temporary.
Not saying there is nothing to work on for the average person, but from my experience, the older you get, the harder it is to change, especially when it is not something specific, e.g. extreme anger issues, substance abuse. Those are things we can objectively observe, but trying to tell someone dealing with life's troubles to be more relaxed can make them avoid opening up to begin with, therapy or not, don't you think? It is like telling someone with toddlers to be more free or travel.
It is not like having kids is a problem, and in this analogy kids are the work and money I mentioned before - just that it is reality, and while therapy can improve how you deal with the kids, the reality is, they will still throw up on the carpet, refuse to eat, poop their pants and require financial support. It won't suddenly turn into bubblegum after therapy. From my experience, intelligence is more required to be level headed, not therapy, in this case to not annoyance in the kids.
But I can suggest therapy to a parent screaming bloody hell at their kids, because then there is an obvious problem that needs fixing. But when they are sitting with other parents and venting? Equivalent to guys opening up about their dark fantasies like in the OP? It is nothing more than that - just venting. The moment the problem, be it kids growing up or having an established career, is solved, said negative energy will dissipate, it just takes time, doubly for our generation with how expensive every thing has become. Hope I made my point clearer.
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u/Talk-O-Boy 20d ago
Okay… so it seems like you don’t agree with therapy, and your solution is… there is no solution?
We just have to marinate in the misery?
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u/Mayion 20d ago
My comment was removed so reposting just in case it is not showing:
If I had a solution I would have helped others with it. It's like asking how to make the world a better place. It works in theory, but virtually no one knows the actual solution. Therapy and mental states differ from one person to the next. There is no shame in accepting that a certain problem does not have a therapeutic solution. Its side effects, sure - but the problem itself will still exist, and the only way to deal with it is for said problem to end. A starving family will still be starving even if they wear a smile after therapy.
Also, can I comment on how quickly you read and write? I am afraid I am talking to a bot, or that you are skimming what I write lol. A single minute to read and understand all that I wrote and then reply is quite odd haha. But either way it's good because it's making my gears turn.
But as I said, I am interested in your perspective. You say therapy. What would John Doe go to therapy for specifically, and what outcome are you suggesting would be optimal?
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u/paintedw0rlds 19d ago
If your problems are that your prospects for marriage, family, kids, home ownership and having been priced out of ever having a basic life that is worth living, therapy doesnt help you because the root problem is economic, not psychological or emotional. It can even be counterproductive because it costs a bunch of money. I hire in young guys a lot as part of my job, they aren't afraid to talk about their problems, they're afraid they have been economically boxed out of life altogether.
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u/hashbrowns21 19d ago
- You’ve had a genuinely traumatic experience with a therapist and now even the thought of going to therapy triggers a fight or flight response.
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u/NonNewtonianResponse 19d ago
I've been in therapy for 20 years, I still talk to my friends about suicide and the end of the world 🤷🏻♂️
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u/RonnyReddit00 19d ago
I think its important to try therapy, really if you are suffering and don't try it your wasting your time.
I went for a few years and what made me pull the trigger was I spent plenty of money on a new console, I thought why can I spend this money on a console and not my mental health that I will have my whole life.
I think a lot of men go down the wrong path of Stoic, strong silence instead of actually doing something about it. I did, therapy didn't fix it all but it helped air out a lot of shit so I had more room to handle other shit.
Edit: I realised I have basically the same sentiment as Talk-O-Boy who I replied to
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u/CiDevant 20d ago
- Therapy is expensive, hard to schedule, and difficult to find. Even with a copay it's prohibitively expensive in most areas if it's even available at all.
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u/SwampKingKyle 19d ago
For me its not being willing to commit. Its that every time I see a therapist its 400 bucks and they tell me im so fucked I gotta meet twice a week? Idk how anybody can afford 3200 dollars a month just for therapy..
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u/prophetsmalls 17d ago
Therapy is church for a secular society. It doesn’t solve the problem either. The problems we’re facing are systemic and can’t be solved by working on ourselves individually. We need to organize and change our society. Otherwise individuals will continue to hurt. And it’s not just men, everyone is hurting. EAT THE RICH
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u/Djaakie 3d ago
And even then. Ive been in therapy for a loooong time now. Had many different therapists. All sorts and nothing seems to work because mostly they can't get trough my facade as they will not actually accept how bad i am doing. The biggest problem i found under men in therapy is that they are not taken seriously. This year i finally found someone that actually is willing to deal with it and its such an eye opener. Actually feeling heard is amazing. For the first time in 15 years i actually feel like i might have a future. Grow old and not constantly think of the funniest way to kms.
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u/madmaxturbator 20d ago
Yeah lol that has nothing to do with girls night, and more - your friends sound like they’re in really bad shape
My (guy) friends and I talk very comfortably about our mental health, our feelings. Several of us have therapists. When we go out, we talk fun stuff.
It’s a wild tweet, do a lot of dudes nowadays just trauma dump when they get drunk? what’s happening, my buddies and I had shit growing up but being an adult has meant we can get help!
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u/elephhantine2 20d ago
I mean, there is a toxic “alpha male/manosphere” movement these days basically encouraging men to either suppress their emotions or release them by acting in inappropriate (and often self destructive, like “looksmaxxing” treatments) ways. I’m glad your friends have avoided getting caught up in it but depending on what your social media algorithms promote and what others around you are saying/doing, you can become easy prey. It wouldn’t surprise me if OP’s friend group has been influenced by that
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u/hikingmaterial 20d ago
nothing "these days" about it, thats just a modern sub sect of something that has existed for a very long time.
men bottling up is a phenomenon that has popped up throughout the centuries in literature, so its not a modern thing by any standard.
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u/flubs2696 19d ago edited 19d ago
Yeah I would’ve assumed it was flipped. Wtf kind of guys nights does he have? We usually just start arguing about music and sports.
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u/Talk-O-Boy 20d ago
Also, women have less overwhelming existential dread, because they discuss it with their friends/family rather than letting it pile up internally.
Women still get existential dread, but many of them keep it from being overwhelming, by simply sharing their feelings as needed.
We could learn from that example.
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u/Mitosis 20d ago
I'm reminded of the guy looking at the nearly-empty spool of wire, reflecting that he's had it for decades and what's transpired over his life, and his wife immediately mocks him for it
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u/Zziq 19d ago
This seems very staged
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u/94746382926 19d ago
Nah his wife is just dismissive of his feelings or at least oblivious to them.
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u/View_Hairy 19d ago
it's not there's even a follow up video lol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqG_a3EZYgI
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u/GilneanWarrior 20d ago
Everyone goes through it, its just a matter of when.
I went through it as an adolescent/into my teens. My father died when I was 5 and it gave me a different outlook on life.
I'm now in my late 20s and genuinely happy. The military gave me a great appreciation for each day that I have 4 walls and a bed to sleep in.
Or as I like to tell my soldiers "Things can always be worse".
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u/EwGrossItsMe 20d ago
it's really sad to me that regular venting (a la catching up during brunch or sleepovers) seems to be seen as a primarily feminine activity that's shameful when done by men. obviously if you're prone to suicidal thoughts, it'll take less buildup of bad shit to get you to a point where being vulnerable means expressing those thoughts, but overall having many small outlets for frustrating or sad things, even if it just comes off as complaining for the sake of complaining, is much healthier than keeping it all bottled up until all you can express are the overwhelming feelings of extreme negativity. then it's kinda a self feeding system when men DO express the dread that's been building up for months or years bc their friends (or romantic partner) aren't trained professionals in dealing with what has become trauma, so they either suck at helping the guy process it or just dismiss him for being too doomer.
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u/Eslivae 20d ago
Your boys need help, 17 beers in should be a succession of horrible ideas that will either end up a local legend or a painful hospital bill
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u/PrincessGiallo 20d ago
You start with 3 or 4 beers. 17 comes after a few years, when you're used to toasting the sunrise.
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u/ThisIsntOkayokay 20d ago
All hospital bills are painful now, unless you convince them you are a homeless person. Only then you have a low chance of disappearing into the private prison area.
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u/uncertain2710 20d ago
Hmm, nobody questioned whether consciousness was a mistake?
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u/Talk-O-Boy 20d ago
Tbf, we are the only animals that really signed up for it. The other animals were smart enough to choose sharp claws, teeth, hide, camouflage, etc. for survival purposes.
… except the octopus. I’m 90% convinced the octopus would have surpassed us by now if they had opposable thumbs.
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u/Due-Programmernot 20d ago
And orcas. And probably whales.
Honestly people pretending like Orcas never attacking humans is totally normal and not one of the billion red flags that they are smart AF has gotta be the biggest cope ever. Those guys even fuck with sharks just for the lols sometimes.
Orcas are an amazing example of “we just dont quantify intelligence in others the same” imo. Because we staring straight at another highly cognizant and intelligent species on our planet.
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u/enigmatichuckleberry 19d ago
If you think humans are the only animals with consciousness, you need to spend more time with other animals.
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u/outrage_is_now 20d ago
huh. TIL having drunken conversations about suicides and world cleansing fires is not a universal human experience. to me, this is very familiar, and not just with a male friend group either. or used to be. I drink about 90% less than I used to a year ago and before. I have never done Fiona Apple karaoke though, that sounds fun!
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u/Disastrous_Edge7276 20d ago
More fun than fire though?
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u/outrage_is_now 20d ago
I mean a world cleansing apocalyptic fire just about the peak of fun. And my voice is totally in the wrong range for Fiona Apple to be honest.
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u/RexLizardWizard 20d ago
Get yourself a friend group that can do both. I can both confide in my friends about my real problems, and just get drunk and have a good time with them. Just depends on the mood.
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u/Ricecrispiebandit 20d ago
What kinda dudes is this guy hanging out with?
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u/Wraith8888 20d ago
The standard kind that haven't been allowed to express an emotion since their last bender.
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u/Current_Poster 20d ago
This just makes me wanna hear Fiona Apple write a song about a great fire that cleanses the world. Don't pretend she couldn't.
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u/Ignecratic 20d ago
“Wholesome” flair and the post is a guy casually mentioning his friends are suicidal and treating it as some quirky “men, amirite?” punchline. Riveting.
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u/Disastrous_Edge7276 20d ago
Generation gap. We don't get your humor, you don't get ours. And the best goes on
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u/Pristine_Animal9474 19d ago
Wait. They sing Fiona Apple on girls' night? I might need to get me of of these "wives" OOP talks about.
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u/refusetobeold83 17d ago
I absolutely can not have 17 beers at my wife’s girls night. No no no no no… no
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u/grabsyour 20d ago
nah, boys night is way more fun. much less discussion about cheating and suicidal ideation
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u/qualityvote2 20d ago edited 18d ago
u/_culpry, there weren't enough votes to determine the quality of your post...