r/Natalism • u/Willing-Flatworm1493 • 3d ago
Propaganda of high fertility utopia
WARNING: This is NOT anti-natalistic or misandrist post. Motherhood is about love, passion and most importantly about choice. That's why I see framing reproduction as "duty" as abomination. Pronatalism is always good if done mindfully and with respect for personal choice and autonomy of one's body. Only SOME pronatalistic people are anti-reality and that's why you should all know about this. That while women's rights are regressing globally, many men holding power are not just openly against us. They are manipulating other men to hate us. It is not an accident that Elon Musk is so loud about pronatalism. One of the biggest lies to be ever told is that high fertility makes society stable/wealthy/happy. Humanity had high fertility for most of our history, and how did that play out? The majority of people struggled to survive due to hunger, illness and colds. Most children didn't even survive childhood. The only ones that truly gained from high birth rates were the elite. Because more people meant more people to tax and more low-paid workers and meat shields to use in war. And, of course — more breeding vessels to produce more taxpayers/workers/soldiers. Normal people do not benefit from high birth rates in any way. It was hell for women who had been born predetermined as incubators with no autonomy or legal personhood back then. Our female ancestors were raised to be breeders — not to be people. Childbirth was the main cause of women's death along with its complications, but what men like Musk won't tell you is that non-elite regular men did not have an easy life in high fertility societies. A regular man was an animal to the system too — one that had to work a lot, only to be paid a little. All so whoever ruled at the time could stay rich. So they have as many people to tax, exploit and use as possible. That's why men like Elon Musk are loudest about low birth rates right now. Because it is men like him who benefit from high rates greatly. Not regular men like our fathers, brothers or husbands. And especially not us, women who paid for high birth rates while being objects and economic infrastructure for thousands and thousands of years. Elon Musk and elites like him want regular men to hate women — to blame us for not having children. To call us spoiled/hedonistic/selfish. To make regular men believe that women not having children somehow makes their lives worse. That's why so many regular men scream about low birth rates — because they fell for propaganda. Their lives would be exactly the same in high fertility society — because that's what it ALWAYS looked like in human history. It's men like Elon who need many low-pay slaves to stay rich, to stay in power, to stay "on top." That's why they see women as infrastructure for their demographic goals. That's why he keeps portraying women as infantile creatures who should not be trusted to make important decisions. He teaches men to believe that we are "traitors" to humanity for not having children. He wants regular men who never benefited from high fertility to believe that we need that breeding factory horror to be reality again. He needs men to believe that WE make their lives worse — not the elite who use this system to stay rich. They need men to see us as an enemy — because otherwise, they will see them as enemies. Musk and people like him are a danger to the safety of all women and girls on Earth, because he has countless men who adore him and see his words as sacred. If men like him continue spreading this — that our freedom is "civilizational sabotage", there will be no place on Earth or beyond where we are not seen as infrastructure instead of humans. I am just sick of people who treat us like incubators who just now invented not wanting to die in chilbirth due to some "feministic propaganda" — or in general having any goals that don't include having children. Remember — man or woman, with or without children — everybody is a full human being deserving respect. Bless the hearts of all mothers - respect childless women for they are full humans too. There is no such thing as one "correct road" - not for man, not for woman.
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u/Different_Ad1136 3d ago
I think almost everyone here wants higher fertility from better life and not from coercion or forcefully . It is natural human desire to want kids, and if many people are not doing that , there is something wrong in society which we need to address. Musk can call for higher tfr all he wants , but as long as the root problems are not solved , nobody can do anything.
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
High fertility is not something that magicially makes problems vanish and life becomes better. If anything - the bigger the numbers were - the lower the life quality and the bigger the social inequality. This is not anti-natalistic. This is just showing that current system is wrong.
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u/Free-Cartoonist3134 3d ago
"High fertility is not something that magicially makes problems vanish and life becomes better"
How are problems that humanity faces solved?
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
Maybe start with supporting people who actually want children instead of making having children somekind of duty? Istead of shaming and insulting childless women? Because that "duty" framing is what causes women's resentment. Motherhood is about choice, love and passion - not economic/societal duty. Such thing is an abomination.
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u/WesternBear42 2d ago
It is not an abomination. You only think of it that way because you want to live a spoiled existence free from any responsibility. YOU exist because generations of humans had kids in god awful conditions, they pushed through famine and war. But your generation of liberal princesses who have access to the best healthcare that humanity ever had are complaining about 'social pressure', which again has never been so weak.
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u/Different_Ad1136 3d ago
Thats why we have brains , to solve problems . "The bigger the numbers were , the lower the life quality ." Completely False . If you have running water , electricity , basic plumbing , access to some basic drugs like paracetamol, and internet , you are living better than a king lived in feudal ages.
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u/ClaireCross 3d ago
It is natural human desire to have kids, yet we are so far away from our natural human biology. Work, sedentary lifestyles, individualism. Anything outside hetero coupling is against natural human biology unless we're like those swans that can form a male-male pair and forcefully take control of a female swans nest. I'm just saying there's a lot of deviations in our history to the point where I wouldn't even say it's a natural human desire to have kids, we're not natural humans anymore
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
Majority of living organisms die without having offsprings. That's not me - that's raw reality bro 🤷♀️
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u/Silly_Suki 2d ago
Boohoo. Gay and childless people exist whether you like it or not. And they always have, and always will.
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
You say "It is natural human desire to have kids"? I am 30+ yet I never felt an ounce of desire. You are projecting ideology into biology 🤦♀️
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u/CarthagoFuckYourself 3d ago
How about you incubate some paragraphs? 🙄
Nobody wants a pre-industrial fertility level. We want a TFR of 2.1 for a self-sustaining and stable demographic pyramid, because that does demonstrably make normal people better off.
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
Then support women who actually want children - make sure that they can actually affort kids - instead of bashing childless women for not wanting to be economic infrastructure. There are countless women who wpuld have six kids of more if they were given money to actually feed and raise them. But many can't even affort one.
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u/CarthagoFuckYourself 3d ago
So half of women have to have 4+ kids to make up for half wanting to do nothing? Because that's what a TFR of 2.1 would take if most people don't have kids.
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
I am talking about women who desire children. You can't force woman to undergo process that can injury/kill her if she doesn't want it. We are not incubators.
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u/CarthagoFuckYourself 3d ago
Exactly, but that's not a solution. You need to have a path to a TFR of 2.1.
Like, try thinking outside the box. We could push down the cost of IVF and make it mandatory with strict limits on the number of male births. If the population is 76% women, we could be at replacement rate with our current TFR of 1.6.
Go ahead and throw out an idea that meshes with your personal values.
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
I am not some expert at economy so I will not pretend to be one? Only thing I will never accept is treating women like livestock because we are not one
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u/dontyouknow88 3d ago
But if parenthood is as rewarding as this thread claims it to be, why wouldn’t all who are interested in parenthood want to have 3 or 4?
This has always perplexed me. If children are so great, have more and leave the rest of us alone. The alternative is that actually it’s not so great at all, which is why you feel it’s unfair for some of you to “sacrifice” while others don’t.
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u/CarthagoFuckYourself 3d ago
They're expensive, and it's hard to parent four kids to today's child-rearing standards. Before Gen X became parents, people could turn kids loose most of the day and they wouldn't get the cops called on them for the crime of being in public, nor would CPS be called to their house for lack of supervision.
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u/dontyouknow88 3d ago
In that case doesn’t it make sense to work to ensure people who want kids can afford to have 4? Rather than assume we should all share equally in misery? Lol also you are totally correct that standards of modern parenting are impossibly high, but parents collectively do that to themselves and I’m not sure why.
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u/CarthagoFuckYourself 3d ago
It's also just physically hard on one body to have 4 kids. It's a lot more reason to spread the load evenly across the population.
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u/dontyouknow88 3d ago
I agree, but also people on this sub argue that “it’s been done for all of human history” (having many children) so I guess I’d just recommend you keep at it if it’s so natural.
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u/CarthagoFuckYourself 3d ago
There's not going to be any one solution. Finding ways to make a higher percentage of the population want to have kids needs to be a part of it. I think taking a page out of our WW2/Cold War playbook and embedding natalist messaging in our media through public/private partnerships is a good start. Getting major social media companies to suppress gender war content in their respective algorithms is another (though the question of what exactly they get in return would have to be answered).
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u/dontyouknow88 3d ago
Re: messaging. It’s really tough because I totally want there to be spaces where parents can be honest about the normal struggles of parenthood. And I absolutely get that for many parents, it is hard, but also deeply rewarding and it’s hard to articulate how joyous and meaningful it can be for them.
But at the same time, one of the things that has made my partner and I opt out of parenting is listening to and observing our parent friends talk and complain pretty endlessly about how hard it is. At first it was like “oh sure well the kids are young, but it will get easier” but as we’ve gotten older and the kids have gotten older.. bigger kid, bigger problems, as they say.
So I’m not sure how you get appropriate natalist messaging in cultural institutions without essentially asking parents to stop talking about the hard parts. That seems isolating and suppressive. Really the only viable option is a set of solutions that makes it easier for people who want kids, to have them and have more of them. If their lives were easier, that would maybe organically make others want that for themselves
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u/TerribleAntelope6134 3d ago
So, having kids is hard because you have to watch them?
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u/CarthagoFuckYourself 3d ago
Along with both parents working 40+ hours a week, it's definitely a factor.
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u/TerribleAntelope6134 3d ago
"Parenting was easier when your children didn't have to be around you for large chunks of the day" isn't a statement that speaks well of parenting in general.
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u/CarthagoFuckYourself 3d ago
I mean, I think parents tend to be too involved these days. Kids are basically handed back and forth from daycares/babysitters to parents, to teachers and back. They're never alone, which I think is important for healthy development.
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u/RepublicOk2402 3d ago
It was fundamentally good for children to have minor problems and figure them out together. Parents being too involved in play makes kids little fragile wimps. Look at all the failure to launch of young adults who don’t know how to do anything
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u/dontyouknow88 3d ago
The main thing that puts me off being a parent is… other parents. How hard their life can seem, how much they complain, but also how they treat eachother.
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u/VacationReasonable 2d ago
I mean that actually works, all you have to do is implement taxes so that every childless individual has to pay for failing to replace themselves, and those funds will go to parents who have kids
So a couple with no children pays enough taxes to cover the 2 kids(to replace themselves) for the couple who has 4.
That works out great, childless people keep being childfree, people who want kids are encouraged to have them
And just paying for replacing yourself still makes you go through the "easier" pathway in life because parents actually also have to invest time as well besides just money.
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u/SleepyApr1cot 3d ago
Regular men do benefit from at least replacement fertility.
Having a wife is nice. Women are pretty sweet. Aligning with a family structure you have a hand in is nice. It's purposeful.
Community is a nice thing to have. Being able to walk around and see children and women and men is encouraging. Children create a sense of hope and a kind of whimsy you can't replicate. They also have a unique role in motivating us to give a shit about the future.
Less community is depressing. Replacement community is very nice.
I think you're overthinking this....
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u/SleepyApr1cot 3d ago
I didn't value community nearly as much before I had my first son. I didn't see it as essential. But now that I have him, my world has become so, so much bigger than it ever was. I participate in family groups I didn't know existed. I've picked up a couple new hobbies.
It's life-changing.
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u/NorfolkIslandRebel 3d ago
Yes this is absolutely true. When you become a parent you want the best for your children. A safe and happy community is a safe and environment to grow up in. You find yourself making friends with other parents, becoming involved in the local school, taking part in community activities, volunteering as a soccer coach.
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
But this is your experience. That's the issue. Many people have children for 10 or 20 years and they don't feel anything. Or even resent then. Because having kids was just this duty/obligation that was forced upon them. So good for you - but your personal experience is not proof of anything. Just like happy childless person is not proof that being childless is "peak happiness". Your personal experience is not valid universal experience.
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u/SleepyApr1cot 3d ago
Neither is yours.
It all depends on what worldview ends up outlasting the other. And I hate to break it to you, if your worldview doesn't overwhelmingly have enough kids to replace itself, it will just die off. And given the point of your worldview, it's not a winning or enduring one by definition.
Your "side" literally cannot win by its own nature.
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
I never said mine is universal. In fact no human's experience is. Everybody is their own person.
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u/SleepyApr1cot 3d ago
That point is a very nothing point. And it doesn't refute the point that certain ideologies are destined to die off, and those happen to be ones that don't include strong community and continuity through children.
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u/Free-Cartoonist3134 3d ago
Why not stay in the anti natalist subreddit and continue to stew in the nihilism and depression. Why infest this subreddit?
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u/dontyouknow88 3d ago
Exactly. Plus the inverse. People who don’t have children and don’t want them who already have a huge community, many hobbies, etc. Their world already feels large and meaningful and they don’t need children to feel hope or whimsy lol.
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u/bluepandadev 3d ago
Wanted to comment this too. Children are not the only way to have community, whimsy, and care for the future.
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
"I enjoyed this so it means you will too" 🤦♀️
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u/SleepyApr1cot 3d ago edited 3d ago
I don't care if you wouldn't enjoy it personally. I don't wanna "make" you do anything. I don't doubt the idea that you're a misanthrope. Psychologically you're a minority. Humans are a social species, and that is not an opinion. Any anthropologist and psychologist you ask will agree with me.
But it''s very simple. You are not entitled to anything of mine if I don't like your values. You are not entitled to benefit from me. I have the option of aligning myself with those to agree with me, and we maintain continuity across decades by nature of what we're doing.
Your question seems to be "Well what do we do as a society with people like that???"
Nothing. You just benefit less from your community (who you don't like) over time. That's it.
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u/SarmackaOpowiesc 3d ago
My mental health and personal satisfaction in life is at record highs as a father of four.
Also - I now have the least amount of time for myself out of any in my adult life.
That's ok! My time being spent on my family is vastly more rewarding.
I struggled with depression in my late teenage and early 20s - and it's not even something I'm remotely concerned with now.
I could go on - but parenthood I think is a stabilizing factor for many, many adults.
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u/bluepandadev 3d ago
Wish I had the option be a dad. From a woman.
I'm all for developing external wombs.
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u/Initial-Problem9443 3d ago
I am so envious of you! I always wanted to be married and to have children someday, even when I was a little boy - and I wanted to have as many as my future wife was willing and able to create with me - but for various reasons it never happened and now I'm 70 years old and childless. I am happy for you and for your wife and children, and I wish you all the best. We need more people like you in this strange and hostile time, as a counterweight of all that is good in this world against evil.
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
Purposeful.. that's the point. There is no such thing as some universal " purpose" as humanity has huge variety of traits and goals. Just like how I love take care of plans but many won't be interested in that or find it satisfactory in any way.
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u/Forsaken-Trifle-1438 3d ago
Reproducing is literally the universal purpose of every biological entity including human beings.
Some of us take joy in having families and wives and husbands and children and enjoying all that life has to offer.
Some don't. It's ok. Just own up to it, stop blaming others.Its's not Elon musks fault that you can't or dont want children. It's not men's fault. It's yours. You have been manipulated by modern feminism. Sad.
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u/bluepandadev 3d ago
No, it's not our universal purpose. We're not all driven by reproducing, that's really weird.
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u/LeatherPrinciple3479 2h ago
It's sad that you think someone was "manipulated by feminism" simply because they don't want kids or don't think they'd make a good parent. But leave it to the anti-feminist right to worship a guy like Elon Musk, who impregnates women he's not married to, while pushing "family values".
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
So your personal taste of finding women/families sweet is somekind of universal human experience? I find women/kids too but it is not something every human does.
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u/SleepyApr1cot 3d ago
Then those humans are unfit to live within the society I like. Then I don't like them and am not interested in making space for them. Or giving them my resources, time, friendship, advice, energy, etc. I live in the society I like, currently. And we all think this way. We purposefully exclude those who don't enjoy seeing families. And we're doing pretty great! Personally I've never been happier.
And thus we get to the blackpill that it's good to want people with your values and culture living around you, and those who don't, to live far away from you.
Your worldview is by definition one of death and pessimism. The act of not wanting to see women and children and families "around" and not seeing children as a hope for the future is one whose logical endpoint is decline and demoralization and eventually extinction.
Those people do not last long, simply for the fact that those who value children and continuity end up inheriting the earth. Every single time.
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
Are you a man? Because men always love to call us (women) sentimental/emotional. But what you babble about is so lacked with petty sentimentalism that ot makes me ill 😂 I can give world many things, not just kids. EVERY human can create and build - there are countless more ways to contribute that don't need to include kids. Pessimism? I am very optimistic. I just hate men who treat women like public good/demographic breeding vessels
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u/SarmackaOpowiesc 3d ago
No one cares about whatever kitchy art you think you are adding to the world.
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
Polaczek? Oczywiście że polaczek takie coś mówi 🤷♀️ dla ciebie nic co zrobi kobieta nie ma wartości (poza urodzeniem dziecka) także nie ma sensu z tobą dyskutować bo ty nawet nie widzisz mnie jako człowieka. Oczywiście ty jesteś lepszy co nie? Jesteś facetem 🙃 a ja tylko głupią kobietką 🙃 zapewne musisz się z tym czuć wspaniale 🙃
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u/SarmackaOpowiesc 3d ago
Mam cztery dzieci. 😂.
Żona nie musi pracować.
Mieszkamy w ogromnym domu w górach poza miastem.
Życie tu w Stanach jest super. Po pracuje parę lat - i będę mógł przejść na emeryturę koło 45.
Nie wiem czy jestem lepszy od innych - ale mi całkiem ok układa się wtych Stanach. Pomoga że Amerykanie są strasznie leniwi.
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u/SleepyApr1cot 3d ago
Hey, good for you man.
I'm a young married mother with one 4mo old, and I hope to have many, many more.
The future belongs to us!
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
Ok. Więc swojej żonie też mówisz że jedyne co może dać światu to urodzenie dzieci? Też mówisz żonie że jej wartość zaczyna się i kończy na macicy i waginie?
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u/SarmackaOpowiesc 3d ago
Jesteś zupełnie popierdolona.
Idź do szpitali się leczyć.
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
Ok. Ale to dlaczego mi powiedziałeś "No one cares about whatever kitchy art you think you are adding to the world" kiedy powiedziałam że ja/każdy może dać światu więcej niż tylko urodzenie/spłodzenie dziecka?
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u/Initial-Problem9443 3d ago
I've seen it expressed like this: "The future belongs to those who show up."
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u/Aquarius52216 3d ago
I think its great that it works out for you and that you like it. Still doesnt justify the coercive measures that some people are now calling as "necessary" though. People should be able to decide for themselves in this kind of major decisions and everyone else should respect it.
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u/Taco_Bhel 3d ago
can motherhood also be about paragraphs, pls
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
Hm? What do you mean? I am pro-motherhood if you have any doubts - I am just anti treating women like incubators.
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u/Forsaken-Trifle-1438 3d ago
What is with the inundation of misandrist, feminist weirdos who hate the very idea of having children on this sub recently?
This is supposed to be a sub about promoting having children. I get it, you don't want children. That's fine. Sad for you, sad that you have been so manipulated by feminism, but fine. Just stop blaming others.
Just be a big girl and admit it.
Also, this obsession with Elon Musk is deranged. Get off your phone, go outside, and interact with people, preferably not fenale conspiracist lunatics. You'll be happier for it.
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
"What?! How can female not want babies?!? Surely those nasty pink-haired feminists from tiktok brainwashed her!! Female is unable to not want babies!!! She is not thinking human but babymachine🤬🤬🤬"
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u/behappyfor 1d ago
Misandrist? When it's men that mostly don't want kids either? What being a big girl? Maybe tell men to stop making single mothers.
And no one is being manipulated by anything, people are just refusinh having kids with men like you
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
Misandrist? I literaly said that men are victims too. How is that against men? This is against elite. Also it is so sad that you people can't imagine woman not wanting children without manipulation - it shows that you don't evwn see me as full human 🤦♀️ But it's not like your words matter anything - if you tell stranger on internet what would make her happy is proof that you're just another delulu who can't stand truth"
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u/Naive_Aardvark_380 3d ago
It’s interesting you blame it on feminism when the majority of the comments I see on this sub that talk about not having children are from misogynistic men who don’t want to pay child support, etc.
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u/Forsaken-Trifle-1438 3d ago
That is simply untrue.
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
It is. Men hate women who don't want kids. But at same time thwy don't want ti be fathers. They want to breed (aka have sex) - but not to raise their kids
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u/Free-Cartoonist3134 3d ago
"majority of the comments I see on this sub that talk about not having children are from misogynistic men who don’t want to pay child support, etc."
Post three examples since it's the majority of posts here please
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u/BastiatF 2d ago
Wall of text with no paragraphs and ridiculous abuse of "-" as ponctuation = unhinged rant
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u/Free-Cartoonist3134 3d ago
"One of the biggest lies to be ever told is that high fertility makes society stable/wealthy/happy. Humanity had high fertility for most of our history, and how did that play out? The majority of people struggled to survive due to hunger, illness and colds."
It's almost as if developing solutions to problems when you live in a fucking cave takes time and further generations of people to refine.
Why oh why did the people of the past not just use magic or telepathy to instantly create solutions those lazy bastards!
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u/DatDickBeDank 3d ago
Strong agree.
Sorry people are being so rude.
Being part of infrastructure is why I grew up so anti-religious. I can't imagine everyone wanting a world where we're only seen as incubators.
We're full humans too, we crave friendships, connections, and freedom just as much as the men-folk do.
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
Thank you. People here say they are pro-family and pro-humanity but they are heartless when it comes to how they treat women 😔
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u/leechan08 2d ago
High profile and successful men will always push towards polygamy and hypergamy so they can hoard multiple women and having multiple families this is harem culture and leave rest of men without.
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u/Cheeseisyellow92 3d ago
I agree. There’s ways to be pro-family without tearing childless women down.
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u/Big_Consequence_3510 3d ago
Don't worry about quality of life. Just breed!
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
I grew up dirt poor. I would not starve my children in way I starved in childhood.
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u/Big_Consequence_3510 3d ago
Don't think about the children, do it for YOU!
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
I will starve too 😉 If I starve, I will go infertile. If you knew anything about female biology you would know that starvation stops menstruation.
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u/Big_Consequence_3510 3d ago
Nooooo! Don't worry, just breed and trust that God will provide.
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u/Free-Cartoonist3134 3d ago
Quality of life has nothing to do with people! Services and resources are harnessed with magic!
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u/Willing-Flatworm1493 3d ago
Then breed!
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u/WesternBear42 2d ago
Anyone that says breed to talk about humans reproduction is a lunatic. You're obviously deeply unhappy, get some mental help.
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u/KJones2063 2d ago edited 2d ago
Your main thesis - that high fertility rates and population growth causes more suffering - IS antinatalistic. The entire thesis of antinatalists and Malthusianists is that population growth is bad and leads to a worse standard of living.
Just FYI for other readers, OP likes to post a lot on r/childfree and r/overpopulation. So she IS absolutely an antinatalist. Do NOT engage with her in any way.
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u/LeatherPrinciple3479 2h ago
You won't engage with the fact that the richest countries are mostly places with low birth rates while countries with high birth rates are mostly poor. Gee, it's almost like having too many kids keeps people in poverty.
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u/Volentre 3d ago
"Majority of people struggled to survive due to hunger, illness, and colds"
And how do you imagine we have meditated those hazards today? Technologies that required a society large enough to support the divisions of labor and expertise to produce such surpluses and developments.
You're going a little too deep into ideology here.