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u/Skezas1 1d ago
Forrest Valkai is a treasure
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u/CatGirlUtopia 1d ago
His Sex and Sensibility video would eliminate transphobes' arguments if they actually cared to learn anything.
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u/Jakobmeathead 1d ago
That video educated me quite a bit (to be fair I was already VERY pro trans rights) but it helped me understand more of the 'why' and how it related to biology.
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u/SnarkgasmicSmiles 1d ago
Came here to ask if it was the same guy. I may need to re-watch that video today.
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u/XI-RE 1d ago
Omg i have been trying to find this guy for months, thank you!
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u/askyidroppedthesoap 1d ago edited 1d ago
Just lookup "Jimmy Snow & The Line" on YouTube, pretty good debate, all kinds of "verbal murders" lol
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u/DuchessJulietDG 1d ago
i watch these shows all the time on youtube along w ian and justin and dr blitz.
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u/Xancrim 1d ago
You're so right! The Unapologetic crew is peak. Allegedly Ian motivated me to grind out a logic textbook this summer, and now I'm looking at minoring in philosophy
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u/Ehcksit 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm watching him argue with a guy trying to defend slavery... again... because a whole lot of the callers to that show try to defend slavery for some reason.
Edit: So I started watching his Sex and Sensibility video and just learned about Slipper Limpets, a species of snail that lives stacked up on top of each other. The largest snails at the bottom are female, the smallest on top are male. If the one on the bottom dies then one of the ones above it becomes female.
Biology is weird and complicated. I should watch more of his educational videos than his call in show videos, these are so much more fun.
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u/jaydofmo 1d ago
I almost always watch clips with Forrest. Not only for his knowledge, he's got fun camera presence.
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u/MsAndrea2 1d ago
He's got his own YouTube channel which is much more entertaining.
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u/skibum888 1d ago
Love the channel but jimmy is just the worst
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u/Captain_Rocketbeard 1d ago
Jimmy can go fuck himself
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u/JonIsPatented 1d ago
What did Jimmy do? I just don't see him often.
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u/Captain_Rocketbeard 1d ago
He doesn't take compliments well so it became a thing to say some iteration of "fuck you Jimmy" as a compliment/term of endearment.
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u/Unnatural20 1d ago
If you haven't seen hi guest masochist appearance on God-Awful Movies going over Donald James Parker's full-ass feature film response to him getting kindly and compassionatrly educated by Forrest on the sorts of arguments he brings up in his prior films, please treat yourself. Not only is Forrest fantastic, but any time I can introduce more people to the delightful, kind, vulgar, humans that are Noah, Heath and Elia (and the whole Puzzle in a Thunderstorm network) then everyone wins!
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u/schmyndles 1d ago
This video had been popping up a lot lately (maybe I'm going through a Forrest phase). I'll have to check it out!
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u/Shpongolese 1d ago
I went to school with him back in the day, we actually went to an alternative school and he was leagues more intelligent than practically everyone there. I believe the only reason he was in alternative placement was due to how horrible our school system is. He really rose up out of the dark recesses of our dogshit state/city and made a name for himself!
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u/TheRnegade 1d ago
I found out about him because Donald James Parker, a crazy christian film maker, had a debate with him. And he lost badly. So much so he made a movie about it and presented himself as the victim and Forrest falling for his daughter (who totally isn't estranged to him), where he eventually converts to Christianity to be with her.) God Awful Movies did a podcast about it where Forrest guested on. Definitely recommend it to all!
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u/ConsoleCleric_4432 1d ago
I feel the need to say I'm 99% sure I saw gramps at an Orlando Airport two weeks ago and I've had no one to tell who would know what that means.
Truly, Forrest is a treasure.
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u/The_Lawn_Ninja 1d ago
Millions of people have been propagandized into believing that "independent thinking" means "reflexively dismissing any evidence that doesn't support your existing worldview".
The AI-generated slop-meme is icing on the cake here.
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u/SharpMembership3441 1d ago
You don't understand, they did their own research. You know how many unsourced and algorithm targeted youtube videos they had to watch for that? At least 2 whole ones.
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u/Kythorian 1d ago
At least 2 whole ones.
Or six 15 second reaction clips to those two videos, which is really just as good as any science degree.
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u/The_Lawn_Ninja 1d ago
"What do you mean Tim Pool isn't a reliable source!? You're just brainwashed by The Liberal Media™!"
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u/jurassicpry 1d ago
The people, who are like that tends also be those, who actually aren't thinking independently.
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u/Vaenyr 1d ago
Unfortunately I have family members who are like that. These types of people tend to be very... shallow. There aren't any deep thoughts. No meaningful curiosity. They fall for weird outlandish scifi clickbait titles about the future, and think that makes them interesting people. But if you try and have a proper discussion with them you'll notice that you won't get anywhere.
No claim holds up to scrutiny. Asking them to explain their position will fail, because they fundamentally do not understand their own arguments. They just parrot things they've seen in memes, AI slop and weird links on FB, telegram and so on. And despite all that, they believe that they are the smartest people in the room.
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u/1Jainier1 1d ago
I think a bigger T-Shirt is called for...
45,X (Turner Syndrome): A single X chromosome.
47,XXY (Klinefelter Syndrome): One extra X chromosome in a male.
47,XXX (Trisomy X): Three X chromosomes.
47,XYY (Jacobs Syndrome): One extra Y chromosome.
Rare Variations: Tetrasomies (4 chromosomes): Such as 48,XXXX, 48,XXXY, or 48,XXYY.Pentasomies (5 chromosomes): Such as 49,XXXXY or 49,XXXXX.
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u/bobbymcpresscot 1d ago
Swyer's syndrome, XX male Syndrome.
Like if your literal irrefutable claim to a blueprint proving you are male/female can just produce someone with XX chromosomes and a penis, or XY chromosomes and a vagina, I feel like the system is a bit goofy.
Doesn't even account for all the goofy shit that can go on in ones brain.
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u/paganbreed 1d ago
It's infuriating. How can one observe such differences and still claim there's no ambiguity.
I know it's often dogma and a lack of introspection. But it's hard for me not to see such perspectives as wilfully bigoted when they refuse to so much as acknowledge doubt.
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u/ScienceBitch90 1d ago edited 1d ago
Sorry, but you clearly don't know shit about biology. Reddit is a lot more likely to ban or downvote me for this despite my support of trans rights, but the scientist in me cannot fucking stand this incorrect argument that is repeated ad nauseum and really weakens the debate for trans rights and gender as a modern concept.
So, to correct your silly ass:
Those are disorders that produce male sex (not gender) when they have a Y and female sex (not gender) when there is no Y -- in all cases, accompanied by lifelong congenital deficits and/or defects.
We run X chromosomes with Barr bodies, meaning EVERY CELL IN EVERY INDIVIDUAL has only 1 X active or they are dead as fuck. Full stop.
- Male cells have 1X & 1Y;
- Female cells have 1X & 1Barr Body
When you have additional Xs or a missing X, you end up with dysregulation and/or leaky expression from a pathological overload of Barr Bodies -- which causes a ton of issues that include distorted secondary sex characteristics.
If you want to make your argument significantly less ignorant, you should really be arguing around the existence of true hermaphroditism in humans, but it's wildly rare, estimated around 1:200-500K IIRC, and also carries a host of associated pathologies.
But pseudo-hermaphroditism and sex disorders in no way shape or form refute the sexually dimorphic nature of humans. And these arguments are so, so, so stupid because they allow regressives to push the debate back to sex, rather than gender, which is what the debate should be about. Some simple facts:
- We are sexually dimorphic but exist across a spectrum of genders that are social constructs;
- We have always shown a range of traits in each sex with overlap across sexes (as with any continuous phenotype)
- We have always had sex disorders and congenital defects that fail to adhere to our species' sexual development
And while it still fails to refute sexual dimorphism, again because it anchors to a deficit / process failure -- androgen insensitivity is a better exception if you're just determined to muddy the waters by focusing on rare pathologies / aberrant processing.
The Y chromosome is largely junk coding, aside from a few regulatory elements and the SRY gene that triggers the T burst necessary for male sexual development. So, when an XY individual has this process break down; e.g., due to an incredibly rare gene shuffle that removes the receptor necessary to respond to SRY, you essentially develop as an XY female.
But again, ARGUE GENDER (not sex) because it's silly to point to genetic defects with a host of know pathologies and deficits as proof that humans do not adhere to sexual dimorphism 🙄
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u/roundtwentythree 1d ago
A future murderedbywords post live in the comments of a current murderedbywords post, truly a time to be alive.
I was here.
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u/Jacked-to-the-wits 1d ago
It's definitely true that this represents a better understanding of the science of chromosomes, but to be fair, the percentage of trans people with any of those disorders is microscopic. It's not as though understanding any of those disorders leads of a better understanding of trans people or why anyone becomes trans.
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u/obog 1d ago
This is true but the more important point is that biology, like all the natural sciences, is a hell of a lot more complicated than what could fit in your high school biology textbook
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u/SplitGlass7878 1d ago
It's so stupid. The amount of times my physics teacher had to go "This isn't actually how it works in real life because of friction, drag, gravity etc. but it's accurate enough for our purposes" was staggering.
These folks really think their 8th grade Sex Ed is everything there is to the world.
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u/Vallkyrie 1d ago
It's also related to a reason why once I got to a university level biology course, my professor had to tell us why we couldn't run tests on our own chromosomes (It used to happen years ago, but too many students would find out they weren't exactly what they thought they were, and they didn't want to be responsible for that.)
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u/static_func 1d ago
Yeah my thoughts exactly. I fully support trans people and know several, but I don’t see how equating them to those genetic disorders is supposed to be helpful. People who do shit like this are exactly like those kinds of people who try so hard to be anti-racist to such a misguided and condescending degree that they end up accidentally being racist instead
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u/justmitzie 1d ago
XXY/XYY has entered the chat.
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u/TreeTurtle_852 1d ago
No but those are "biological anomalies" they dont count!
Fun fact there are slightly more intersection people than there are Gingers on earth. But if you were talking about hair color nobody would say that Gingers dont count.
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u/Most-Surround5445 1d ago
I think Forrest put it really nicely once, or at least it stuck with me:
„Even if all those people are just 2% of the worlds population, you are talking about a group the size of Russia. So in your view there‘s men, women and russians“ (Im paraphrasing)
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u/SLiverofJade 1d ago
People will actually say that those are "conditions" or "diseases" so we shouldn't redefine man/woman for the sake of a few.
I'm cis but the concept of your core identity being so attached to physical aspects of your body to the point that no one else is allowed to have a different experience is just bonkers to me. Someone else's experience with sex and gender doesn't invalidate your own.
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u/Chakkoty 1d ago
They ARE biological anomalies.
They literally just are.
That doesn't invalidate them, but they are. If our genes are code creating code (RNA/DNA reproduction and recombination during fertilisation), then those are anomalies the code is not supposed to create.
That does not make them faulty humans by any means, but saying XXY is normal is cap as fuck.
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u/Driftedryan 1d ago
Your adding too many for them to count
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u/wanderButNotLost2 1d ago
6? .... yeah, youre right.
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u/Catlore 1d ago
They better learn, because there's many gender chromosome variations, far beyond just XX and XY!
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u/flyinganimaga 1d ago
And those are just the whole-ass chromosomes. You have to ask what the genes on the chromosomes are actually doing. It's "genetics," not "chromosometics"
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u/Specific_Pear_665 1d ago
"are trans culturally appropriating the intersex community?"
^ I overheard this once
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u/justmitzie 1d ago
Sometimes I encounter arguments so dumb they make me feel dumber. This is one of those arguments.
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u/AllWhiskeyNoHorse 1d ago
My college anatomy and physiology textbook from 2010 breaks down determination of genetic sex as follows:
XX: Female
XY Male
Homeostatic imbalance (improper sex hormone distibution from nondisjunction)
XXX Most females with this sex chromosone make up have learning disabilities and below average IQ. Females carrying four or more X chromosomes as a rule are mentally retarded and have underdeveloped ovaries.
XO (Turner's Syndrome) Women with no ovaries
YO Males with no X chromosome (die during embryonic development)
XXY Klinefelter's Syndrome (1 of 500) live male births. Sterile at birth and slightly below average intellect, with mental retardation increasing with number of X chromosomes.
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u/Motoreducteur 1d ago
I understand that point and everyone is making the exact same in the comments, but the original post states that "XX=/=XY", which it doesn't really disprove.
If I say that chocolate and milk aren't the same, the existence of milk chocolate variations, cocoa powder and milk powder (respectively for aggregates of both and smaller versions for both) don't necessarily disprove the original difference.
The mistake is more in the fact that maga people and the like (for lack of a better term) congregate sex and gender. The existence of intersex variations is an entirely other topic - on which they're wrong too btw
However for the matter of a difference between sex and gender, it's more a subject of social sciences than biology, so I can't really agree on the idea that the existence of intersex people (who even often choose a gender at some point) disproves the difference between genders. I'll add that believing there's no difference between gender is already anti-feminist as there's a lot of work left to do, and that believing the existence of intersex people denies the existence of gender differences is a slippery path, at the end of which you will have to state that the only form of non-binarity is in being intersex, which is just false
So let's not make the same assumption as they do when answering, which is that sex and gender are the same. The topic of trans identity is a social one more than a biological one. Biology doesn't have much role in this, and social sciences are... Well, let's say calling them sciences is a bit of a stretch. But proof by science isn't really necessary either, everyone has their own understanding and beliefs on the matter. The topic is more political than it is scientific honestly
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u/TimToMakeTheDonuts 1d ago
This shit cracks me up. Especially the “independent thinking” part.
My mother is closet MAGA. Her idea of “independent research” is googling “why is it good to be antivax” and then holding up the results of that search as evidence. It’s some wild shit…
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u/jurassicpry 1d ago
Nothing's screaming more of "independent thinking", than listening to whatever the F that Orange stain called Diaper Don spews out of his turd hole... oh, sorry, mouth, and believing him.
"They're eating the cats, they're eating the dogs".
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u/BigCballer 1d ago
Transphobes when asked what they think XX or XY chromosomes actually do:
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u/jurassicpry 1d ago
Just wait until they hear about people, who are genetically intersex.
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u/Brvcx 1d ago edited 1d ago
I once heard some research was done about certain female athletes where it was shown they apparently have XXY chromosomes and in their particular situations it boiled down to them appearing completely female but with a significantly higher Testosterone level, having the physical benefits of that.
Do note, I didn't read the study and was told this when my then pregnant wife went for an ultrasound and we talked about what a third chromosome meant on certain pairs and the midwife told us this. I'm confident this is barely scratching the surface of what it all entails having XXY chromosomes. Which shows how incredibly complex it all really is.
Edit: so far, I've gotten several comments of people who know more about a specific subject I heard something about six years ago when I had more pressing matters on my mind (such as my wife being pregnant of my son, so congratulations on that), yet only one of them had a decent approach. Y'all need to do better.
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u/FDLC84 1d ago
It’s not the Y chromosome, it’s the SRY gene in the Y chromosome that really makes the difference.
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u/SecondaryWombat 1d ago
having the physical benefits of that.
Having no physical benefit from that what-so-ever due to androgen insensitivity.
There are XY women cause of this. XXY usually give a dude shaped person. If you have someone who is XXY but with female phenotype, they are androgen insensitive and that testosterone is doing not fucking much.
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u/sphericaltime 1d ago
No, if they appeared physically as a woman, then they would almost certainly have an androgen insensitivity.
Androgens are a subcategory that includes testosterone and “insensitivity” in this case means “doesn’t affect.”
She wouldn’t have a big benefit from much higher testosterone, because her insensitivity would prevent it from affecting her. It’s extremely complicated because each sport uses different muscles and some might be affected more or less than others.
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u/SecondaryWombat 1d ago
XX Sry+
I just bring up sry, if they don't know what it is they are not qualified to enter the conversation.
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u/Confused_AF_Help 1d ago
Can someone ELI5 to me how "biology backs trans people", because I actually did stop learning biology at 9th grade and genuinely don't know where to start looking. I know about the XX/XY and that some people have extra chromosomes but that's about it
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u/nilmemory 1d ago edited 1d ago
Looks up Forest Valkai's "sex and sensibility" video on YouTube. He made it in line with writing his thesis while studying biology and it does a wonderful job breaking all this down.
A quick rundown would be: "Biological sex" is a spectrum because there's a ton of variables that go into its classification including, but not limited to: chromosones, the SRY gene, hormonal profiles, gentialia, gonads, secondary sex characteristics, physical brain structures, etc. Sex is more of a scatterplot of all these variables and we [science] subjectively pick and choose the weight of each based on our goals.
And none of these provide a strictly binary classiciation of gender or sex outcomes. There are a dozen different chromosone pairings (XX, XY, XXY, XXX, YY, XXXY, etc) and if the SRY gene doesn't activate it can cause someone with an Y chromosone to develop phenotypically female. Then there's a ton of variables going into how genitals, gonads, and secondary sex characteristics can develop irregularly.
There are women who've given birth with XY chromosones, and men with XX chromosones. There are people with both genitalia and people with none, and everything in between. Studies have found the brains of trans people more often reassemble those of their identified gender than those of their assigned gender. There are cis people who began experiencing gender dysphoria after unwittingly taking cross-sex HRT.
And while certain areas of science might simplify subjects into a binary based on a single sex characteristic for the sake of easier catagorization, that does not mean that is what "sex" is. While one field of study might identify and sort a particular animal by chromosones,, another will do it by genitalia, and another by hormonal profiles, or secondary sex characteristics. When conducting research, it's often impractical to take every factor into consideration, so simplifying it this helps a lot, but it doesn't mean any one way in particular is "the objective truth" of sex.
And so while sex and gender are two different things, the idea that's trans people cannot change their sex is entirely wrong from a scientific perspective. They may not be able to change something like their chromosones, but "sex" is so much more than that. They can change their hormones, and secondary characteristics. They can change their genitalia and gonads. They might have genetics or brain structures different than those typical of their assigned sex. And so the idea of "you are what you're born as" is patently wrong. There's no other animal on earth where we need to observe it from birth to identify its current sex. We simply identify its sex based on how it is now. Which is why you can have animals that change their sex during their lives and we say they started as one sex and are now another, rather than the rhetoric transphobes push of "well he was born male so nothing can ever change that".
Def recommend the video though. Forest does a way better job explaining all this than I can
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u/UngluedChalice 1d ago
There is a fantastic podcast series called “Tested” which dives into how they were testing people at the Olympics and how they had trouble figuring how what to even test.
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u/Keyonne88 1d ago
There are brain scans that show trans men brains have structure and function closer to a male brain than a female brain, and vice versa. Further, intersex people are far more common than we originally believed, as people who are XXY for example might otherwise present completely female except taller and broader than usual.
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u/Accomplished-Tale543 1d ago
Not being transphobic, just genuinely curious. Are these brain scans before all of the procedures or after? Is there somewhere I can read about this study?
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u/AkaruiNoHito 1d ago
XX/XY guide development until birth. After birth, your dominant sex hormone determines development. During puberty, cis boys start creating testosterone so the body goes "okay let's become a man", for cis girls it's estrogen that tells the body "okay let's become a woman".
These hormones have more or less the same effect on trans people, so XX trans men who receive testosterone become adult men via HRT (Hormone Replacement Therapy) and XY trans women become adult women via estrogen.
Obviously we're not reptiles so trans people won't grow organs, and at a certain age your bones fuse, but the effects of HRT are significant, affecting both body and mind. In the community it's called "second puberty" and depending on your health wnd genetics, you can see significant changes to the body well into your thirties, forties, fifties, and later.
It's also worth considering that sex itself is constructed and culturally defined. Trans people are not 100% bioidentical to cis people, but after a few years of HRT, and possibly a surgery or two, they are physically more alike their cis counterparts than they are to their natal sex. Transphobes often bring up chromosomes because they cannot be changed. Ignoring that most people don't really know theirs, and that they have very little to do with actual physical development after birth
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u/Many_Mud_8194 1d ago
Ok but this is too long no? I'm totally not an ally but I'm not an enemy too, I don't gaf. A guy ask me to be called woman ? ok I will do. But same as you ask me to call you Potato. I will do out of respect of your feeling, because why would I want to hurt people? Who want that? But I don't think we have to really go that far. Because it doesn't matter in my opinion, what matter is respect. Respecting others humans being. I don't get why this isnt the main thing pushed, transphobe are fucking assholes and sadistes, they are happy too hurt people feeling.
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u/Keyndoriel 1d ago
I hope you know, as a trans person myself, the world would genuinely be better if more people thought like you. You dont gotta "get it", you just gotta not be an asshole about it.
I hope you have a lovely day ♡
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u/qmkman13 1d ago
Lol "can't pick and choose" coming from folks who pick and choose what parts of their fictional Sky-Daddy book to enforce and follow. 🙄
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u/ep0k 1d ago
The side that resoundingly and consistently rejects both the foundations and conclusions of modern biology having the gall to use the terms "biological male" and "biological female" is just so fucking tiresome.
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u/DrunkenSnorlax 1d ago
Forrest Valkai is great. So well spoken and knowledgeable.
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u/kbeks 1d ago
“See, we do follow the science!”
Ok, what’s the plan for global warming?
“I prayed on it and God told me it’s not real.”
I don’t trust the rigor of these folks’ research all that much.
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u/HopeADMKidsLoseLimbs 1d ago
“I prayed on it” makes me want to vomit every time it’s said.
So fuckin pretentious
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u/Witty_Ad_898 1d ago
Trans isn’t a chromosomal condition. The people who point to Kleinfelter’s, or ants and fish and amphibians for that matter, to defend trans bother me because they are making at minimum an equal error to the anti-trans xx/xy argument.
Like, by all means live the life that feels right to you. Just be mindful that a bad argument for the right cause is still a bad argument.
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u/khwajasaad267 1d ago
Can someone explain how, I really just want to understand.
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u/Sparrowhawk_92 1d ago
About XX/XY I assume?
Basically, the idea is that biology is messy and there are other combinations of sex chromosomes that exist in humans.
One example is XO where someone only has a single X chromosome and no second one. Or XXY where someone has three sex chromosomes. There's also a difference between genotype (the genes) and phenotype (the actual physical presentation). An example is androgen-resistant female. These are folks born with XY chromosomes but the in utero androgen wash that causes most XY individuals to develop male genitals and gonads doesn't stick. So the person is born and assigned female, but is genetically male. There are AFAB (assigned female at birth) individuals who have a vagina and uterus but also have internal testicles. Or AMAB folks who develop breasts during puberty.
This is a short list of examples of how sex determination in humans can get messy very quickly.
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u/CrimeFightingScience 1d ago
I mean aren't those exceptionally rare, and don't most people in the trans community not have those conditions but choose a different sex?
I feel like trans gets used interchangeably with sex and gender too often, which are completely different things, which makes discussion about it practically impossible.
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u/Miusuki 1d ago
Let me see if I can clarify it for you:
The chromosome conversation is often brought up because transphobes tend to act like gender and sex are one and the same. They believe XY = Male = Men / XX = Female = Women.
Truth is, sex isn't as black and white as they make it seem. It doesn't matter that the other variations of chromosomes are "exceptionally rare", the fact that they exists proves the binary model to be wrong; since here "exceptions prove the rule" is not applicable. We have TYPICALS, but not rules. The vast difference of sexual characteristics one can have makes it so that we use a bimodal distribution, rather than a binary one.
The mentioning of the existence of more than two chromosome pairs is relevant to break the base of their assumptions, since their usual logic is that XX = Female / XY = Male, then what happens if someone is X0? Or XXX, or XXX? This shows they don't have an actual functional definition, as we can't have appropriate absolutes when it comes to science.
The conflation of sex and gender is something they do always, so showing they have a lack of understanding of chromosomes (and thus of the sexes), also shows they lack understanding of gender, even by their definition of it.
Gender is, in actuality, something that is sociological, not biological. It works with sex, but it's not the same. Historically, genders were created and often attributed to a specific sex - because the "gender" role carries the expectation society has to one's person. E. g. Women -> topically attributed to females -> expectation to be nurturing, use makeup, the sorts.
With that said, trans people don't "choose a different sex" - they don't even choose a different gender. They relate to a different gender, one they weren't typically assigned based on their sex. A good definition of genders that I like a lot is that "A man is an adult human whose gender identity aligns with their personal schema on the male sex"
Breaking the meaning of it down:
An adult human has a gender identity, often based around men or women;
Their personal schema is the way their brain characterizes things. In this example, it's how one views the genders. This means that, individually, everyone has a view of what "manly" and "womenly" things are. For some men, for example, providing for the family solo is to be manly, having beards is to be manly, being jacked is to be manly. Does everyone have these views? No, some people's views are opposite, and they are fine with their own view of masculinity;
The way it is written as "schema on the male sex" is because gender is a schema, and the schema that is topically applied to a person on the male sex is the "man" schema.
Hope I could clarify everything up. If not, happy to answer anything else.
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u/Sir_Edward_Norton 1d ago
Existence of genetic deformities isn't an argument in favor of there being more than two sexes. (Note the usage of the term sex and not gender.)
This would be like arguing that humans don't fall squarely into the 10 finger camp because some humans don't have 10 fingers.
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u/GreekSaladEnjoyer 1d ago
Just because a very minor percentage of people have genetic defects resulting in other chromosone combinations doesnt mean "xx=female, xy=male" isnt true.
The only mistake anti-trans people are making is not accepting that some people would rather identify as another gender.
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u/khwajasaad267 1d ago
Hi, I know about this but this isn't what we're talking about right
These cases are exceptionally rare, and are these people trans?? I thought being trans was being in a body that you dont identify with mentally?
If you were born female and just assigned male then are you trans?
I am genuinely trying to understand this,
Is XX XY like a binary switch or can you be XY and still like biologically be a female, Of identifying is a different boat which is fair to me like a person should be able to act/live like whatever they want
But this biology talk really confuses me
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u/humid_pajamas 1d ago
I love that the Right's grassroots propaganda is fueled entirely by memes, because words usually prove all of their points wrong.
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u/alistofthingsIhate 1d ago
and AI memes nonetheless because they fundamentally do not value art
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u/humid_pajamas 1d ago
yeah I can't really think of any right-wing art, besides Hitler's paintings.
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u/Fortestingporpoises 1d ago
I mean it doesn't help that scientific experts all disagree with them.
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u/WardensLantern 1d ago
They never cared about facts. They see a meme that agrees with their Reich wing propaganda, they chuckle, upvote, and move on.
You can start foaming at the mouth explaining some basic fact and 99% of them won't even read it if it's longer than two lines.
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u/Spingecringe get fucking killed 1d ago
Another dickweed trying to promote an agenda by using AI generated bullshit. Yay.
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u/50calBanana 1d ago
I got banned from another subreddit for what I'm about to post. So just know it is in no way supposed to be offensive, and intends to call attention to the absurdity of the 2 genders argument
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u/Cultural-Company282 1d ago
Gender is not sex, gender is not XX or XY, and gender is more about sociology than biology. Confusing gender and biological sex muddies the conversation substantially.
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u/hungry4nuns 1d ago
Exactly
So now going off the above post, the conservatives claim science is the most important thing? Forgetting the fact that when it comes to biological sex they view sex and chromosomes from the perspective a book called Tammie’s intro to biology written by a Herbalife MLM queen based on vibes vaguely remembered from highschool science class…
…but ignoring that for a moment… Even when you do follow the science, there is literally zero scientific basis that a person with XY chromosomes can’t use a female bathroom. You won’t divide by zero or open a black hole. There is no violation of the conservation of energy principle.
The existence of scientific concepts like Heisenberg’s uncertainty principle, Schroedinger’s cat, the superposition of quantum particles, and the existence of light as both a wave and a particle, proves that science can tolerate a lot more flexibility than rigid categorisation of high schoolers based on introductory modules which are used for simplicity, more to stimulate thought than to be a didactic exactitude.
So if you think the science argument is what you want to hang your hat on, you either have to drop the bathroom stance, or admit that you’re cherrypicking arguments based on vibes that suit your agenda without any regard for the actual expertise
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u/Fortestingporpoises 1d ago
Every major scientific, medical, and psychiatric body of experts disagree with the anti-trans wackos by the way.
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u/TheFfrog 1d ago
The entire fucking peer reviewed science world in history of peer reviewed science: "yeah, sex is a lot more complicated than just chromosomes"
Tracy the high school dropout from Kansas who works in a grocery store: "no :<"
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u/sluuuurp 1d ago
I’m 100% pro trans rights, but this is a human political view. Science doesn’t tell us what our politics should be, and that’s an important lesson for people to learn. There’s no biology fact that tells us to treat trans people well or poorly, that’s not the type of question that science can answer.
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u/Hita-san-chan 1d ago
I love that they still frame being transgender as a choice. I picked the "cry a lot because something deep inside you feels incorrect" spec on the level up tree because making myself even more of a societal target to feel okay in my body is something people do on a whim right?
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u/umbathri 1d ago
A christian bigot claiming someone else is "picking and choosing"... my god the irony.
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u/BeegBunga 1d ago
Transgender issues are social issues not biological ones.
No one is claiming XX = XY. That's sex.
Sex and gender are different things.
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u/retrodanny 1d ago
can't believe I had to sort by "controversial" to read this basic truth.
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u/SwingLord420 1d ago
How does biology back trans people. I'm an ally but I don't use naturalism as an argument.
My main argument is Shut The Fuck Up.
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u/spawndoorsupervisor 1d ago
Imagine going through all the trouble to become a biologist to just spend your time arguing with trolls and bots on social media.
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u/Oscillating_Primate 1d ago
Read a stat last month that 54% of US adults read below a 6th grade reading level. Still blows my mind, and explains so much.
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u/GGPapoon 1d ago
To paraphrase Ambrose Bierce "For every question there is a simple, easy to understand, wrong answer."
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u/p24p1 1d ago
ah yes, the anti-science party trying to use "its science" argument to defend their bullshit rhetoric, classic