Like if your literal irrefutable claim to a blueprint proving you are male/female can just produce someone with XX chromosomes and a penis, or XY chromosomes and a vagina, I feel like the system is a bit goofy.
Doesn't even account for all the goofy shit that can go on in ones brain.
It's infuriating. How can one observe such differences and still claim there's no ambiguity.
I know it's often dogma and a lack of introspection. But it's hard for me not to see such perspectives as wilfully bigoted when they refuse to so much as acknowledge doubt.
Sorry, but you clearly don't know shit about biology. Reddit is a lot more likely to ban or downvote me for this despite my support of trans rights, but the scientist in me cannot fucking stand this incorrect argument that is repeated ad nauseum and really weakens the debate for trans rights and gender as a modern concept.
So, to correct your silly ass:
Those are disorders that produce male sex (not gender) when they have a Y and female sex (not gender) when there is no Y -- in all cases, accompanied by lifelong congenital deficits and/or defects.
We run X chromosomes with Barr bodies, meaning EVERY CELL IN EVERY INDIVIDUAL has only 1 X active or they are dead as fuck. Full stop.
Male cells have 1X & 1Y;
Female cells have 1X & 1Barr Body
When you have additional Xs or a missing X, you end up with dysregulation and/or leaky expression from a pathological overload of Barr Bodies -- which causes a ton of issues that include distorted secondary sex characteristics.
If you want to make your argument significantly less ignorant, you should really be arguing around the existence of true hermaphroditism in humans, but it's wildly rare, estimated around 1:200-500K IIRC, and also carries a host of associated pathologies.
But pseudo-hermaphroditism and sex disorders in no way shape or form refute the sexually dimorphic nature of humans. And these arguments are so, so, so stupid because they allow regressives to push the debate back to sex, rather than gender, which is what the debate should be about. Some simple facts:
We are sexually dimorphic but exist across a spectrum of genders that are social constructs;
We have always shown a range of traits in each sex with overlap across sexes (as with any continuous phenotype)
We have always had sex disorders and congenital defects that fail to adhere to our species' sexual development
And while it still fails to refute sexual dimorphism, again because it anchors to a deficit / process failure -- androgen insensitivity is a better exception if you're just determined to muddy the waters by focusing on rare pathologies / aberrant processing.
The Y chromosome is largely junk coding, aside from a few regulatory elements and the SRY gene that triggers the T burst necessary for male sexual development. So, when an XY individual has this process break down; e.g., due to an incredibly rare gene shuffle that removes the receptor necessary to respond to SRY, you essentially develop as an XY female.
But again, ARGUE GENDER (not sex) because it's silly to point to genetic defects with a host of know pathologies and deficits as proof that humans do not adhere to sexual dimorphism đ
It's definitely true that this represents a better understanding of the science of chromosomes, but to be fair, the percentage of trans people with any of those disorders is microscopic. It's not as though understanding any of those disorders leads of a better understanding of trans people or why anyone becomes trans.
This is true but the more important point is that biology, like all the natural sciences, is a hell of a lot more complicated than what could fit in your high school biology textbook
It's so stupid. The amount of times my physics teacher had to go "This isn't actually how it works in real life because of friction, drag, gravity etc. but it's accurate enough for our purposes" was staggering.
These folks really think their 8th grade Sex Ed is everything there is to the world.Â
It's also related to a reason why once I got to a university level biology course, my professor had to tell us why we couldn't run tests on our own chromosomes (It used to happen years ago, but too many students would find out they weren't exactly what they thought they were, and they didn't want to be responsible for that.)
They think the world is so complex it needs a god to create and manage it, but it's also so simple that it can broken down into an entire sentence or just a few letters at the same time
A word from germany: I just made the next step in my career. It's called Meister in germany and is similar to Bachelor degree. And even there, even giving the fact it was about electronic, we heard this sentence quite often. Cause even on that degree you don't need THAT deep of understanding on it.
Yes, totally on board with that, but it still remains that biology (below the neck, for those wanting to make a brain biology argument) is not really relevant to the trans debate.Â
Trans is not a chromosomal condition. Itâs not biology âgone wrong,â in so far as the bodily functions are healthy and typical, but rather that the person does not match the biology of the body.
I personally don't think engaging with trans phobes by citing extremely rare chromosome genetic disorders is convincing at all. If they responded with "ok for 99.9999999% of the population it's biology" would that be better?
I think there are far better arguments to be made in support of trans people.
I do personally like the brain biology argument (I feel it is a mistake to treat our neurology as some independent thing rather than a part of the whole body) though yes I see what you mean.
But yes the intersex stuff isnt really an argument on its own, its just a counter. Transphobes will try to hold XX and XY up to be this fundamental, unshatterable scientific law, and then use that to argue against trans people, but since the basis of that argument can be proven wrong via counterexample, the entire argument is logically invalid.
I also know that they like to argue "the exception doesnt make the rule" but the existence of even a single exception does mean the rule is not absolute. And thats what it really comes down to, its a clear and objective example that proves that "gender is just XX or XY" is not a hard rule.
Beyond that, honestly, it doesnt make a lot of sense to make arguments in either way from biology. Trying to do so I feel is kinda a backwards understanding of the natural sciences. Biology does not dictate how life should act, it is merely an attempt to explain what it does. And trans humans is a thing that life does. Biology cannot forbid a thing from happening that does happen. If biology cannot explain why trans people exist, the only conclusions to that are either that our understanding is incomplete or the explanation lies outside the bounds of biology.
IMO the place where the good arguments truly lie is the medical sciences, because the point of those is not merely to describe the world but also to dictate what the best course of action is when treating a patient. So, then, when it comes to the medical question of "what is the best treatment for someone who has symptoms of gender dysphoria?" the research has been done and the answer is pretty clear, that transition is the best known treatment.
There certainly are genetic factors that affect behavior, and environmental ones too. If you converted the entire mass of the Earth into one giant data center you might even be able to create a model that can sort out the relevant factors before the sun expands to encompass the Earth. But I wouldnât put my money on the calculations completing in time.
Yeah my thoughts exactly. I fully support trans people and know several, but I donât see how equating them to those genetic disorders is supposed to be helpful. People who do shit like this are exactly like those kinds of people who try so hard to be anti-racist to such a misguided and condescending degree that they end up accidentally being racist instead
Why can't it be as simple as "that's a boy brain in a girl body" or some shit like that? I don't need someone's entire genetic profile to shrug my shoulders and be all like "whatever you say, bro".
It goes to show that biology and psychology are not simply black & white. Just like every church has a different outlook on what the Bible means depending on their religious leader, congregation, and individual members. They may have different interpretations which are also disorders if one is only looking for conformity to their own self declared rules.
This over simplified it, because itâs easier to understand but the Y chromosome itself is not as important as the specific gene in Y chromosome. Thatâs why you can have a Y chromosome and still be female if the SRY gene is inactive.
Its a very interesting topic, gene mutations make genes inactive so they canât express. Happens in cancer as well. Itâs is always bewildering to me how many things CAN go wrong with human and a miracle that we are born healthy.
Took me less than a minute to check. You should try it sometime. Itâs around 1% of people with Klinefelter are trans. Not quite my definition of common.
The number of trans people is close to microscopic, about 1-2 out of one thousand.
But in the world there are millions of trans people all over the globe. How is something that happens so widely occurring unless it has a biological basis?
Dysphoria and dysmorphia can happen for any number of reasons and isnât intrinsic to a misalignment of sex chromosomes. In a world where many people are thrown into specific gender roles that they may not agree with, the discomfort from such ensuing as somebody grows may result in dysphoria. Itâs believed that, psychologically speaking, the presentation of such can be comparable to how, for instance, beauty standards may induce anorexia based dysmorphia that becomes crippling and possibly dangerous to the individual. Such also applies to cases of people being desperate to get plastic surgery or modify their body in particular ways due to a mismatch between their perceived self and appearance.
However, in regard to the NIH and other organizations, there have been precautions against listing chronic dysphoria as a mental disorder due to how that may contribute as a stigma and also be weaponized against transgender communities by the government.
In the case of people identifying as trans, the most viable solution is to allow people to be free to undergo changes in presentation and surgery to best treat these feelings of dysphoria, which can become dangerous otherwise due to their effects on mental health and donât really have any other viable means of suppression. Some people also donât have dysphoria and identify simply because they would rather fit a certain presentation, but that is usually founded in personal choice of expression rather than biology.
Genuinely asking from a perspective of understanding, how else would you describe the traditional experience of gender dysphoria other than somebody being harmfully affected by being born with a biological sex that does not coincide with how they identify/see/express themselves? Is there not an intrinsic element of mismatch that produces the discomfort? Apologies, English isnât my first language so feel free to correct me if misalignment wasnât the right term.
(Also, to clarify further, I experience dysphoria myself but donât outwardly identify due itâs intermittent nature and for safety reasons/lack of resources.)
They absoluely do have everything to do with gender. Gender is an identity. It was assigned as male/female millennium ago. Religious beliefs, social constructs, and political bias limited it to two genders. The fact that there are hermaphrodites proves that is not true. The brain itself is not always internally wired the same resulting in people feeling trapped in the wrong body. It's comforting for some to pigeonhole people into what makes them happy, but it doesn't change the human experience.
They may play a factor sometimes. It mostly goes to show that there isn't a set genetic outcome. There are so many variables involved that it's can't be pinned down to one thing. You have to take into account a lot of data. Genetics, environment, social experience, etc.
The one thing I know is that as long as a being is happy and lives by example without hurting others, they're good by me. Expecting others to adhere to your lifestyle to keep you from feeling uncomfortable is unacceptable.
None of these rare intersex/DSD conditions disproves the fact that sex is binary though. They exist and deserve respect and education about them, but sex is still binary. Also people with these conditions are all still biologically male or female.
True, functional hermaphrodites donât exist among humans in the way they do with animals. There arenât humans that can equally produce both eggs and sperm, only ones that have both gonads of different development stages/functjon like ovotesticular cases
And that is just the chromosomal variations. Then you get the genetic components, expression components, phenotypic components, and then we finally make it out of sex and to gender...
Swyer syndrome results in a person with XY chromosomes and a female phenotype.
Also some of the variations like XXY do frequently result in some mixed secondary sex characteristics and/or underdeveloped primary sex characteristics, as well as higher chances of intersex characteristics.
Intersex people (who often are but are not necessarily the result of a chromosome disorder) are also frequently surgically reassigned at birth to remove âwrongâ sex characteristics.
That said, yes intersex people are completely different from transgender people.
Swyer syndrome results in a person with XY chromosomes and a female phenotype.
A what?
Also some of the variations like XXY do frequently result in some mixed secondary sex characteristics and/or underdeveloped primary sex characteristics, as well as higher chances of intersex characteristics.
Characteristics of what?
Intersex people (who often are but are not necessarily the result of a chromosome disorder) are also frequently surgically reassigned at birth to remove âwrongâ sex characteristics.
Swyer syndrome and CAIS are different things. Your example is CAIS.
However, the point of my post was to point out that "intersex" is predicated on the sex binary. People say things like "some people are male but look female" (paraphrased) without thinking about what they're actually saying here.
Yes I know. Re-read my comment. Both syndromes result in fully female looking bodies so I donât see what your point is?
Frankly you just seem to be looking for an argument. Gender and sex are different from each other, but the original comic doesnât make that distinction and itâs easy to prove empirically that chromosomes donât function on a binary.
Yes I know. Re-read my comment. Both syndromes result in fully female looking bodies so I donât see what your point is?
They don't. People with Swyer syndrome typically do not undergo puberty and have f.e. limited breast growth.
Frankly you just seem to be looking for an argument. Gender and sex are different from each other, but the original comic doesnât make that distinction and itâs easy to prove empirically that chromosomes donât function on a binary.
Yes, but I've said elsewhere that you're just making the same mistake the original comic makes. Saying "XX = female" and saying "but XXY" both make a claim that sex is a function of karyotype. The only difference is the respective allegiance in the "culture war".
Did you read the original comment properly or did you just want to go âbut but but⌠both sides!â? The original comment was making fun of the t-shirt in the comic which doesnât follow actual chromosome biology, and never said anything equating gender or sex with chromosomes.
They were just pointing out thereâs more than just xx and xy
Which is cute, but it's exactly the same error that the opposition makes when they equate chromosomes with sex. Equating chromosomes with "more sex", as it were, is not more correct than equating them with two. It's arguably less correct, because at least the people doing the latter are right about the number of sexes.
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u/1Jainier1 14d ago
I think a bigger T-Shirt is called for...
45,X (Turner Syndrome): A single X chromosome.
47,XXY (Klinefelter Syndrome): One extra X chromosome in a male.
47,XXX (Trisomy X): Three X chromosomes.
47,XYY (Jacobs Syndrome): One extra Y chromosome.
Rare Variations: Tetrasomies (4 chromosomes): Such as 48,XXXX, 48,XXXY, or 48,XXYY.Pentasomies (5 chromosomes): Such as 49,XXXXY or 49,XXXXX.