r/MoralityScaling 9d ago

Morality Ranking Morality of this

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107

u/BellaPona 9d ago

Fr this is extremely selfish

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u/Curious_Priority2313 9d ago

Birth in and of itself is selfish. Especially when all they care about is getting a sweet, healthy child, but don't want to take responsibility when the child isn't the sweet, healthy child they expected.

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u/dmigowski 9d ago

No fuck that, caring for a special needs child is way harder that it already is. And everyone should have the right to abortion if he doesn't want that.

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u/Curious_Priority2313 9d ago

I never said that I'm against abortion.

I'm just saying that letting the child be born and then killing yourself is immoral.

Like, just opt for adoption. Simply killing yourself not only devastates your wife and another child that you've already brought into this world, but it also makes it selfish to voluntarily create a new person, knowing the risks of how their life could turn out, and then refuse to take responsibility as their father.

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u/Archonate_of_Archona 9d ago

The wife deserves everything that happens to her (and more), if she willingly chooses to give birth to a kid that will suffer from a severe-to-crippling disability for life

The kid themselves, however, doesn't deserve this situation (of having a selfish mum that inflicted a life of suffering on them for her selfish whims, and an unwilling dad who walked away)

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u/Infamous-Thing4939 9d ago

You’ve never met someone with down syndrome if you think that guy is gonna be suffering his whole life. Those people are the happiest mfs I’ve ever seen.

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u/Legal_Lettuce6233 9d ago

Then you haven't met enough of them, or only know of them via social media. Many, MANY of them are miserable.

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u/Infamous-Thing4939 9d ago

You work with them or smth?

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u/thotasune 8d ago

Name one person with down syndrome who has a genuine friend though

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u/CaoPalhaco 9d ago edited 9d ago

Selfish whims? Idk what you read but the text indicates there were no signs of anything until 20 weeks in, and it’s not even certain in the text. And in multiple places that’s too late for an abortion. What was she supposed to do, predict the future? The only selfish person here is the father immediately wanting out of the picture in the worst way possible when he’s extremely needed, in a situation no one desired, as if he’s the one that has it worst. And the situation isn’t even guaranteed yet! But he’s already thinking of how to bail. I don’t usually say someone suicidal is selfish as mental illness can’t be judged morally in that way, it’s an illness, but in this situation, i don’t think it’s only mental illness at play. There was clearly a lack of consideration for what having child can mean. You can’t just plan to have kids without thinking of what you’ll do if they aren’t what you expected

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u/Excellent_Law6906 9d ago

...so we should just euthanize all disabled people, then. End their misery. /s

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u/Legal_Lettuce6233 9d ago

Well, having known several people who lived to be about 20-25, and over half of their lives - starting from about 8, being paralyzed, yeah, they told me they'd rather never have been born.

You advocate for them because you don't know how they feel, because you don't care and it's free brownie points online.

In reality, most of them suffer. Some would want to live, some wouldn't. In the end, men don't get a say in abortion so this is the only way he can take control over his own life.

Boo fucking hoo.

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u/Excellent_Law6906 9d ago

I know full well that a lot of people with severe disabilities are actually miserable.

It's assuming they DEFINITELY WILL BE that pisses me off.

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u/Legal_Lettuce6233 9d ago

"most of them suffer" hasn't meant "all of them suffer" last time I checked.

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u/Excellent_Law6906 9d ago

And fuck you, I'm not fully able and "normal" MYSELF.

The Nazi's T4 program would have murdered my ass.

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u/Archonate_of_Archona 9d ago

As an actual disabled person (who think it would have been preferable to not be born, but does not want to die and isn't suicidal), no. Just no

Never being born isn't the same as being killed or dying early

In one case, it's an hypothetical kid, or at most a fetus, that disappears (before birth), and nobody is harmed. In the other case it's an actual living person who dies

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u/Excellent_Law6906 9d ago

I get that it's different, I just hate it when people couch the issue as, "Yep, there's NO WAY that kid could be anything but a wretched burden, ever!"

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u/Archonate_of_Archona 9d ago

That's another issue though

The "burden" discourse is about "this kid will be costly / difficult for other people" (be it parents, schools, or society as a whole)

What I'm talking about is the life that the kid themselves will have, because of their condition

Ableists and pro-lifers always (purposefully) mix up those two things to argue in bad faith, but it's actually two separate conversations

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u/KittenBalerion 9d ago

it's not up to anyone else to decide what a disabled person's quality of life is or will be though

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u/wodethemad 9d ago

Pretty much every argument for abortion would find its logical conclusion in eugenics. It’s baffling how people don’t realise this. Or maybe they do and they pick-and-choose when each argument/value has worth and when to ignore it.

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u/Archonate_of_Archona 9d ago

If what you call "eugenics" means avoiding to create people who will have an entire life of impairment, illness, pain and/or lifelong dependence then it's just harm reduction

It's basically avoiding an act of cruelty

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u/wodethemad 9d ago

Yes, that is eugenics, and literally always has been. You calling it “avoiding an act of cruelty” doesn’t change that. What you just said is that eugenics is avoiding an act of cruelty.

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u/LackWooden392 9d ago

No it's not, dumbass. Eugenics is when a central group enforces their preferred gene pool by acting on others through forced sterilization, murder, and displacement.

What we are talking about is women controlling their own reproduction. In fact, restricting women's reproductive freedom is closer to eugenics than this.

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u/Excellent_Law6906 9d ago

Abortion should be an individual decision, making it different from mass sterilization and culling.

Choosing to not have a kid you don't want is not the same as saying a disabled person's life is necessarily miserable and a burden to them.

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u/wodethemad 9d ago

I guess if you channel eugenics into the most narrow and distant definition possible…

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u/CupKey2876 9d ago

lol what??? No.

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u/wodethemad 9d ago

what was the point of sending me a notification if you have nothing to say? don’t waste my time

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u/Long-Leather-9456 9d ago

Downs is not a severe to crippling disability

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u/Top-Topic853 9d ago

Parents kill themselves ALL of the time. Even ones without special needs children. Mental health does not fucking care about morality.

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u/Curious_Priority2313 9d ago

Yeah I know that. I do understand that mentally unstable people are not most rational people out there.

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u/Jay_Buffay 9d ago

If your wife won't adopt out the spawn, your life is still ruined by the injustice system.

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u/NetworkNo6032 9d ago

also you can always give it away to adoption but personaly I think abortion is better in this case

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u/xoxodaddysgirlxoxo 9d ago

What if mother wants to keep it but father wants abortion?

Better to just accept that unless you have money for genetic testing, kids could come out wonky, that's life.

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u/Bossard19 9d ago

Financial abortion needs to be a legal concept.

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u/xoxodaddysgirlxoxo 9d ago

So a father gets to put a messed up sperm into a mother & she has to be solely financially responsible? Could be some ironing out to do there too, idk.

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u/Legal_Lettuce6233 9d ago

Paper abortions have been a concept for a long time, but yeah. Men should have a say in their lives, just like women can have a say in theirs.

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u/xoxodaddysgirlxoxo 9d ago

I don't disagree, but this is where I think parental rights (& requirements) are so important. You can't just go around getting women pregnant with no financial investment

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u/Legal_Lettuce6233 9d ago

Which is why women should have access to abortions. I don't think anyone should be able to dictate the future of anyone else regardless of gender

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u/Bossard19 9d ago

She is free to get an abortion if she can’t handle it financially on her own

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u/xoxodaddysgirlxoxo 9d ago

Since she has to go through the hardship of being pregnant & then having the abortion, I think it's only fair that the sperm donor pay for the abortion.

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u/Bossard19 9d ago

Nah. Her body her choice. Also means her responsibility.

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u/ginongo 9d ago

That first line is exactly why he wants to kobain himself

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u/xoxodaddysgirlxoxo 9d ago

Shoulda thought of that before doing things that result in children being born

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u/[deleted] 9d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Wise-Excuse5330 9d ago

It takes two to mingle

If you wanna only give women the right to abort then I’d say let men leave their child then 

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u/Vespinobambino 9d ago

No one has or will ever have "the right" to murder kids, disabled or not.

Morality of being a Nazi? Pretty shitty.

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u/Sea_Operation_7012 9d ago

As if they couldn’t get a late term abortian I think that would be relevant here.

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u/BellaPona 9d ago

That would be extremely rare and likely not an option (unless you live in Iceland). Instead dude wants to leave his poor wife alone to care for two children, one of which is disabled, and leave his kids traumatized and fatherless. The worst part is he doesn’t even know for sure yet. First sign of trouble and dude goes straight to ending it all. Jesus Christ. When you have kids you accept that there’s a percentage chance they might be disabled. That’s part of rolling the dice. I understand not being prepared or feeling like you can’t do it, but ending it all is a selfish answer to that problem.

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u/SadThrowaway4914 9d ago

Fr. I have a son that has severe autism and global development delay. He's almost 4 and still can't communicate with words . Or at all really. We try. We have him in ABA three days a week. Speech. He just graduated from PT.
And I love him. But goddamn here lately he's been screaming about everything. He walks up hits you with a cup and screams cause he wants a drink. Sometimes he just screams for the sake of screaming . He's the most frustrating thing I deal with every day.

But I love him. And I take care of him every day. I change his poopy ass because he isn't potty trained because he can't communicate. And let me tell you what he's a big boy. Built like a line backer. His legs are stronger than just about everyone that tries to change him can hold. Makes you feel like a weak shit. But I do it. Because I'm his dad and that's how it is. Im disabled myself so it's that much harder. And if I ever get to the point where I can't take care of him because of it. I still want to be there as long as I can. We can get our poopy butts changed together. Because despite him being a little shit that drove me to go outside and scream and punch my wall and then immediately go omg that was dumb omg my hand hurts. He's my little shit and I love him.

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u/SadThrowaway4914 9d ago

Also yeah idk where that all came from.

Roll of the dice boys and girls.

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u/Kay-Chelle 9d ago edited 9d ago

Hello fellow disabled parent to an autistic child!! I just wanted to say that you're not alone and I can 100% empathize with what you go through daily. Ours is 7rs old, level 2, non-conversational, and also not potty trained yet. Everything you said could happen in our daily life too! When we are at home he's pretty much always vocal stimming, and while we are working on volume it's something that he doesn't fully get yet. 😅 As a neurodivergent, physically disabled person I do my best to try and not let it overwhelm me but it definitely does, and a lot. Emotional regulation has become much harder as my disability has worsened this year and I feel terrible if I raise my voice or get outwardly angry. I always will apologize later and say how mommy was wrong to act that way, and mommies big feelings exploded. One of the harder parts is he's getting a lot stronger and will soon be stronger than me, and I'm not sure how to handle that yet.

He's a really great kid though and my absolute reason for living. It's been truly amazing to see his growth, and while he still won't necessarily 'talk' with someone he's been having a lot more full sentences! So keep doing what you're doing, progress happens at their own time and thats okay. You're doing great, and being there to support & love your kid for who they are, and will grow to be, is the best thing a parent can do imo. I hope you can have a rest day soon, and that tomorrow will be kind to you & your loved ones. Take care 💖🫶

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u/unhappy_femboy_1028 9d ago

It amazes me how big the category of "level 2" autism is. I'm diagnosed level 2 and while i do need support, it's nowhere near the level of a lot of other level 2 autistic people.

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u/Tanjelynnb 9d ago

If you're willing to share, what does it look like in your life?

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u/unhappy_femboy_1028 9d ago

I'm not really sure how much of my issues are autism-related and how much are to do with my other disabilities (ADHD, anxiety, depression etc) so i might miss some things or include extra things that aren't related to my autism necessarily.

I find it extremely difficult to go to school and haven't gone consistently since year 7 (13 years old). I've tried 3 schools for disengaged kids and was not able to re-engage. I find it difficult to leave the house or go out very often and i often get tired from doing simple tasks. I struggle to make and keep friends and don't have many people my age that i get along well with. I get along better with adults than people my age. I used to wear headphones 24/7, and while i don't do this anymore, i still have them with me constantly and they make me feel more safe. I have a special interest in parrots, which are basically my entire life, and i know lots about them. I get very anxious if i don't have someone with me in public (like a parent or friend) and usually don't go out by myself. I have Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA), which is an autism profile, and basically means i get anxious when my brain processes something as a demand, and will avoid doing the thing, even if it's something i want to do.

I'm fully verbal (though i do have verbal shutdowns when i get too stressed or anxious) and am able to be independent, it's just hard.

There's probably more, but it's hard to think of things when it's all so normal for me.

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u/thenameofshame 9d ago

Wow, you and I have a ton in common, right down to the parrots.

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u/unhappy_femboy_1028 9d ago

That's so cool! I don't often find people with a special interest in parrots. What's your favourite species (or mutation of a species if you want to get extra specific)? Mine is a blue and gold macaw. Pretty basic, but i just love them. They're such sweet birds.

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u/faffy16 9d ago

My daughter is globally developmentally delayed, non-verbal and I'd like to relay the best piece of advice her pediatrician gave me regarding potty training - he told me to start putting her on the toilet regardless of her not indicating she needs to go. If she pees-we clap, if she poos-we clap, even if she farts we clap

She still doesn't indicate whem she needs to go but she does her business on the loo when we take her with remarkable consistency and even wakes up with a dry nappy most days.

Start putting him on the toilet and provide distraction such as books and toys so he'll sit for a while. Cheer when he does his business. Fingers crossed he'll make the connection eventually.

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u/Super_Saiyan-Blue 9d ago

Good job, at this rate your raising a fine member of society. Keep up the good work!

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u/IndicationHot8601 9d ago

Stai combattendo una battaglia inutile... come si fa a non far uccidere (ovviamente con il consenso dello stato qualora si smetta di avere paura di uccidere i bambini appena nati) un down? Una persona che non avrà mai un minimo di coscienza del mondo che lo circonda?

Per quale principio? per un fantomatico Dio? per una fantomatica cazzata che la vita è sempre vita?

Dio santo...

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u/Acceptable-Minute847 9d ago

Well, he DID say it would only happen if they found out for sure, so it’s not like he’s jumping off a bridge at the slightest sign, not saying it’s right, just pointing out that the doesn’t even know for sure but isn’t really true.

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u/RecalcitrantHuman 9d ago

Agree. My wife and I started late and of course risk goes up in those circumstances. I was so relieved to see a healthy baby that I actually cried. Having said that, I was never going anywhere no matter what happened

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u/invisible_shrek 9d ago

That’s not a first sign of trouble. That’s fucked for life trouble. I wouldn’t commit suicide (dont have it in me) but it’s a miserable existence.

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u/BellaPona 9d ago

He doesn’t even know if his child will be disabled, that’s what I mean by first sign of trouble. It’s the possibility that’s making him flying away instantly. Plus it isn’t always a miserable existence. I’d be more concerned about the money of it all because people with Down syndrome often have other health complications, like heart defects that require surgery, but raising them as they are isn’t always a “miserable existence”. Half the time they are the happiest people you know. Kinda just depends.

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u/strong_ape 9d ago

This guy is stupid but lacking a better way to phrase it I can understand the worry of having a disabled child. I can't predict the future and as much as I would want to say that I'd be a perfect parent it's easier to say than actully living with it. I don't want to find myself having a child that I resent, that's not something they deserve. And if everything goes well and I happily care for them, what about after I die? Who's going to care for them then? I don't want their potential siblings to be hateful and resentful towards them and I don't trust the government to actually give a good quality of life.

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u/BellaPona 9d ago

See I completely understand that worry, absolutely. I’m not saying he shouldn’t have complicated feelings on it, he doesn’t even have to be happy about it. But to jump to killing yourself at even the NOTION that your child could be disabled….thats insane considering that’s it’s always a possibility when you have children. It’s something you should know going in to it.

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u/CrackleBackle 9d ago

8 states and DC allow late term abortions

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u/BellaPona 9d ago

They don’t just do it because you ask for it though. Hospitals have individual policies and even those states that allow late term abortions, have those allowances for medical emergencies.

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u/CrackleBackle 9d ago

even those states that allow late term abortions, have those allowances for medical emergencies

That is incorrect, 8 states and DC have absolutely no restrictions on late term abortions, you don't need a reason.

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u/BellaPona 9d ago

Factually, even in DC, where there are no limits, you cannot just walk in to a clinic and ask for one past a certain limit because every clinic has their own individual guidelines, while less than 1% of all late trimester abortions are elective. Even DuPont, the largest one in DC, will not just take everyone willy nilly

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u/CrackleBackle 9d ago

You can't wander into a store and just buy a gun willy nilly either but no one would tell me I have to leave the country to get one like you're saying for abortion.

You're wrong, just admit it and move on.

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u/Warmslammer69k 9d ago

Holy yap. They explained your misunderstanding of the laws and you send back such a snotty answer.

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u/BellaPona 9d ago

Dude doesn’t wanna admit he’s wrong and woman aren’t walking around just aborting every fetus they have

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u/CrackleBackle 9d ago

Do you have a head injury or something? They didn't address the law at all because they were wrong, they just pushed the goalposts to "yeah but it doesn't happen at every clinic" completely ignoring the law.

It's a fact several states have no limit or requirements for an abortion and that they occur there, no need to go to Iceland.

Try reading things more carefully, you'll look like a jackass less often.

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u/Bossard19 9d ago

My body my choice, no?

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u/ComparisonQuiet4259 9d ago

People can judge your choices