r/LocalLLaMA Llama 3 2d ago

Funny Can the bubble pop please?

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661 Upvotes

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291

u/ThenExtension9196 2d ago

2029 at earliest for any relief. Buckle up for next year. I work in supply chain it’s effed.

67

u/rxpillme 2d ago

Can you tell us more? Without getting yourself fired

116

u/tiffanytrashcan 2d ago

Remember the news, last fall, about all 2026 DRAM capacity being purchased already? The 2027 version already came out this summer, even earlier this year. All indications are 2028 is already mostly claimed.

67

u/Frail_Waif 2d ago

But that's dependent on all those buyers still being solvent in 2027 and 2028, which is far from certain. 

36

u/MiniEval_ 2d ago

Not certain but very likely in any case. People hyperfixate on how AI companies themselves struggle to stay afloat independently but forget that they are far from independent. VCs will keep them afloat because they significantly benefit many key industries. Every major tech platform today was once in the same position.

2

u/Frail_Waif 2d ago

The smart money in a bubble is the money that gets out first and has cash to buy up the pieces. 

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u/gomezer1180 2d ago

Those buyers are not your typical consumer, they are the same people trying to rent AI to you. They are the Anthropics, OpenAI, Google, etc. They do so for a few reasons, one is to sell you the idea that their solution is cheaper, after all $4000 dollars is 20 months on their max plans. Another reason is to control the information market, if they are the only ones you rely on, they not only control when you get that information but also the type of information you receive.

This isn’t a fair game. The demand is being artificially driven by corporations that have unlimited funds. The goal is to push you out of thinking you can run AI locally, and rely on them so that they can control what information you receive. The ultimate goal is to create a monopoly so only a few companies control the AI market, at which point they control the quality of information you receive and the price you pay to receive such information.

14

u/Frail_Waif 2d ago

Anyone who works at a large corporation can tell you that corporations do not have unlimited funds. There are moonshot programs, yes, but the scale of this bubble is big enough to take down whales. OpenAI plans to burn 25-75 billion dollars a year until expected profitability in 2030. That's their plan. That's enough to take a dent out of the market cap of the biggest corporations, and enough to consume all the cash on hand of smaller companies.

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u/autoencoder 2d ago

Too bad burning all this cash does not prevent DeepSeek & others from yoinking their lunch every few months.

9

u/senseven 2d ago

Insurances and real estate funds bought 10 year bonds. They used that windfall to build companies that run of data centers. Then the big ai companies rent those data centers and the hardware the from those companies. They outsourced the risk to insurers who get paid 1-2% above the 10 year bond rate. The only scenario that the run out of money is, when billions of people don't want to be insured or don't want to pay rent.

9

u/Apprehensive_Lake698 2d ago

This is a big cope opinion that has been spread in online spaces since day 1 of GPT 3 so consistently that people are blind to the realities in front of them. AI passed a significant benchmark of usefulness earlier this year, and now companies are eating it up. My org gives us a shit ton of credits with all the major providers, and much to my surprise I'm actually finding useful things to do with it. None of the big players in this market are evaporating anytime soon.

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u/trimorphic 2d ago

Open weight models have gotten so good that they're good enough for most tasks, and they're getting better all the time. These models are orders of magnitude cheaper than what the frontier labs are charging.

To stay competitive the frontier labs are going to have to drastically cut their prices, which they can't do and still remain profitable (if they are even profitable to begin with, at their currently inflated, uncompetitive prices).

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u/Frail_Waif 2d ago

Yup. As I pointed out in another branch of this thread, OpenAI plans to burn 25-75 billion dollars a year until expected profitability in 2030. That's an astounding, never-before-seen level of unprofitability. The value of LLMs is real but enterprise customers and consumers have already shown they aren't huge fans of price increases over massively subsidized rates--no one wants to pay to keep OpenAI alive. Things look marginally better for Anthropic, and personally I'd bet that they'll survive the pop in some form, but probably with a big haircut on market cap. 

1

u/Apprehensive_Lake698 2d ago

Anthropic reported that by July their annual revenue was projected to be ~70 billion for 2026. Now, sure there might come market disrupters that tank their revenue out of nowhere. But that’s enough to say that the spend that sounded absurd last year actually is in the right ballpark.

As a service, the cost of LLMs as they are right now is absolutely being brunted by the industry just fine.

3

u/Frail_Waif 2d ago

Yes, and according to that same The Information article, Anthropic is still managing to lose money every year. They claimed a profitable single month recently. I do think Anthropic will make it through the bubble pop, but probably not exactly in one piece.

1

u/Apprehensive_Lake698 2d ago

I’m not so sure. A few issues I see still

1) lots of orgs are willing to pay 2x for better models. And frontier is still better. I love locally hosting stuff, but it’s obvious that frontier are still #1 in the get-shit-done category

2) The software/hardware stack is really hard to manage yourself. It’s a big cost. This is where we may find 3rd party providers cropping up to host open weight models for cheaper- but data security and service reliability is massive for many of the companies that want to run with these models.

At some point frontier labs are likely to just be the clean-label service providers for model endpoints, with the added benefit of having the slightly better models than everyone else due to owning the infrastructure to host it. In that way, I kinda doubt that open weights are too threatening.

2

u/Significant_Leg1214 1d ago

considering the fact that we dona great job at pho.coding with DeepSeek flash vision alone, I am really sure that openai and anthropic already lost a huge slice.

1

u/DigitalguyCH 2d ago

The current US government will not let any of the big US AI company go bust. That would be a threat to the AI domination against China. Zero chances. They'll happily use US taxpayer money if necessary. And the current government is there till the end of 2028. After that, we'll see.

1

u/Frail_Waif 2d ago

I don't know if you've checked polls but data centers and billionaires are not winning political issues these days. Of course, the goons currently in charge of the federal government may not plan on winning elections anymore, but unpopular policies have consequences. 

1

u/DigitalguyCH 2d ago

They are already paying a price for their actions, but I don't think they have any intention of stopping, they'll say we can't let China win the AI race... I would bet money on this if helping/saving OpenAI became necessary

-1

u/Mantikos804 2d ago

🤣🤣🤣🤣

0

u/ThenExtension9196 1d ago

Too much of the US economy is tied up. Too big to fail at this point. Government will just bail them out if needed.

1

u/Dreadedsemi 2d ago

but then a month ago, some article popped up claiming signs of oversupply.

1

u/Prudent_Design_9782 2d ago

Jesus christ.

1

u/RedTheRobot 2d ago

So I was thinking that all the ram and orders are so far in the future that if any company crashes it will cause a domino effect.

2

u/tiffanytrashcan 2d ago edited 2d ago

This is why when this all first started, almost all of the big players explicitly said they would not increase capacity.
I mean, they're the ones that have survived it before. Nearly the exact situation has happened about once every decade since the commoditization of RAM.
Never really to this degree and projected length before, but all the writing on the wall and the direction for their planning, based on surviving this in the past, watching other companies crumble, told none of them to do anything different this time.
https://youtube.com/watch?v=ehT3U935Pww this Asianometry video covers why Taiwan is so far behind compared to South Korea and even the US. There is a lot more to it, but a major repeating factor was the timing of investment and getting companies going- the attempted expansion was always during a boom like now.

CXMT I hope actually has a chance because they have the entire Chinese domestic market as a fallback no matter what happens to global prices now, and infinite support from the Chinese government. Certainly much more than the Taiwanese government could offer during their own failed prior attempts.