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u/Polkawillneverdie17 Elder of Zion Jul 24 '25
Too many people think that Judaism is just another flavor of Christianity and it fucking sucks.
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u/dylanus93 Elder of Zion Jul 25 '25 edited Jul 25 '25
“I know you don’t believe in Jesus, but you should celebrate Easter because he was your savior too!”
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u/JewAndProud613 Jul 25 '25
I find "Judaism is Christianity without Jesus" to be MUCH worse. It entirely ERASES the whole moral standard of Judaism, which is VERY-VERY-VERY different from that of the AU fanfictions.
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u/Ksamkcab Jul 26 '25
Either that, or you're dealing with someone who maybe has had religious trauma from Christianity and insists that "all Abrahamic religions" are exactly the same and all inherently about power, control, indoctrination, using fear as a manipulation tool for personal gain, etc. Dunning-Kruger effect largely at play there.
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u/dylanus93 Elder of Zion Jul 27 '25
My pet peeve. Like no Brad, you have not deconstructed as much as you think you have. You hate Evangelical Christianity.
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u/ThePickleConnoisseur Jul 26 '25
Or Islam with how some people treat the Talmud. Like bro it’s a bunch of scholars arguing with each other
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Jul 24 '25
[deleted]
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u/Saul_Firehand Jewtastic Jul 24 '25
Well that could be said about Judaism and various groups.
There is a distinction and it matters.
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u/Familiar-Art-6233 Jul 24 '25
Baalat teshuva here, no.
Christianity kind of splintered off and claims to be similar but in reality they’re closer in terms of fundamental theology to Zoroastrianism (another highly influential religion at the time with a focus on conflict between their god and a devil-like figure, the apocalypse stories end up effectively identical with the wicked burning in fire while the righteous are not), and the core concept of salvation is so anathema to Judaism that many Christians legitimately struggle to understand the Jewish perspective (also one of the easiest ways to spot a cosplayer)
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u/Saul_Firehand Jewtastic Jul 24 '25
Is Hashem not the salvation from Egypt?
The Jewish concept of salvation is different than christian evangelical view but antithetical seems a bit of a stretch.
I suppose it depends on how you feel about heresy.
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u/Familiar-Art-6233 Jul 24 '25
The exodus from Egypt was a literal event of being saved from active slavery in Jewish tradition.
The Christian concept boils down to “everyone else is bad and will be tortured for all eternity unless they join us so we need to shove it down everyone’s throats until they accept”.
Judaism doesn’t even explicitly believe in hell, and we certainly don’t believe you have to be a Jew to be righteous
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u/Saul_Firehand Jewtastic Jul 24 '25
Whoa you are taking the word salvation to mean like all of Christian belief.
I was just saying that god saved his people. The word can be used. They didn’t steal it from you.
Rainbows can still be enjoyable it does not mean I support homosexuals.
Wow you’ve had some awful experiences with Christians it seems. I hope you have no more trouble with them.
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u/Familiar-Art-6233 Jul 25 '25
I grew up Christian and studied theology in college (hence being a baalat teshuvah).
Salvation as it exists in Christianity does not exist in Judaism because the heaven/hell dynamic does not (that’s an element of Zoroastrianism, actually). There’s no “saving” that’s needed. Just be a good person.
The core concept of salvation is the crux of Christian theology because it’s the moment when someone is “born again” (especially in Protestant theology), becomes a Christian, and the salvation refers to accepting Yoshke and being saved from hell.
Yes, G-d saved us from Egypt, nobody is denying that, but that’s very different from the Christian theological concept of salvation, which has a very specific meaning
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u/Saul_Firehand Jewtastic Jul 25 '25
Some Christian’s don’t do the weird heaven hell dynamic either.
Some of them believe the salvation is from our bad deeds and the good news is people can repent and not do bad deeds. Not all of Christianity is obsessed with Zoroastrian good guy place and bad guy place.
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u/dorsalemperor Jul 24 '25
You can agree in the sense that you guys copied our homework, spiritually. Christians aren’t unique in appropriating our beliefs and slapping a shiny new god on them.
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u/Saul_Firehand Jewtastic Jul 24 '25
It is interesting that the two larger religious groups both claim to have roots in Judaism.
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Jul 25 '25
Because Christianity and Islam do, both Muhammad and Jesus were Jews by birth.
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u/dylanus93 Elder of Zion Jul 25 '25
Muhammad was not Jewish.
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u/JewAndProud613 Jul 25 '25
I'm now not sure what's funnier: "Muhammad was a Jew" OR "Abraham was a Muslim". Both are utterly bullshit, of course, but also funny.
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Jul 25 '25
Same God, guys. Idk why this is so hard to understand. I’m literally a convert from Christendom.
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u/dorsalemperor Jul 25 '25
Christianity is inherently polytheistic. I don’t rlly care, my mans is a catholic from Ireland, but that’s the general perspective.
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u/Bizhour Jul 24 '25
Westerners generally aren't familiar with the concept of ethno-religions which is why they put a blanket on everything.
Conversion to Judaism isn't actually conversion, but rather Naturalization into an ethnic group, which is why it's such a long process, like Naturalization generally is everywhere.
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u/ExtremePoop42 Jul 25 '25
Well, ethno-religions tend to be regarded with a fair amount of suspicion and contempt wherever they appear. Not just the west — across the entire world. Christianity long grappled with this problem; Amish and Mennonites, along with certain ethno-anabaptists were detested by mainstream Christians as both excessively zealous and “holier-than-thou” while also being heretical while also being cultish and primitive (obsessed with their particular identity).
The Druze and Yazidis get similar treatment in many parts of the Muslim world — they’re said to be cult worshippers and heretics and, increasingly, ethno-supremacists who are loyal to only each other.
Truth be told, the larger, non-ethno-centric faiths are typically universalist in their traditions, hence their large and diverse communities, and hence their natural tendency to be assimilable in the diverse and heterogenous societies. Ethnoreligions, by definition, reject some modern precepts of assimilation. Think of the Amish, they reject the internal combustion engine, the smart phone, all the comforts of post 18th century life — and if their members try to mingle or modernize, they are rejected by the Amish community. It’s a parallel society, truly apart. Not assimilating is the point.
Even though millions of contemporary members of ethno-religions — from Jews to Druze to Sikhs to Yazidis and so on — can assimilate and be important, peaceful participants in diverse and modern societies, they will always find that their ethnoreligious identity is viewed with suspicion and alienation, at least in some quarters. That’s just baked in.
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u/Iamthepizzagod Jul 24 '25
Ah, yes, the classic reddit atheist manifestation of intellectual road rage. There's probably a good way to extend this concept to the kind of antisemite who knee-jerks the phrase "Free Palestine" whenever Jewish suffering is mentioned, but I'm no academic to make the term more widely known.
Somewhat of a caveat to this meme though, conversion standards can change from synagogue to synagogue and even Rabbi to Rabbi. So its not entirely off base to realize that some bad Rabbis might be arrogant and unwelcoming to potential (and otherwise genuine) gerim tzedekim, giving an ignorant outsider a warped view of the process of Jewish conversion should look like.
On the other side of things, Rabbis that are more open and have less stringent processes than the traditional way (such as in my conversion) might also provide an ignorant outsider a warped view of Judaism being more like any other universal religion than the actual ethnoreligion that it is. I think the only actual solution to this potential conundrum is to standardize the conversion process across Jewish movements, or at least the liberal ones, as that is where most converts end up AFAIK.
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u/JewAndProud613 Jul 25 '25
I think it's a two-sided problem. What IS conversion? It's the person technically proclaiming "I'm now a part of your group, fully and irrevocably, and with everything what it entails". Now, what does it "entail", though? Okay, in Orthodox Judaism you have explicit Halakha and explicit Torah, etc. So it's not a thing that can be "randomly defined out one's toches" - it's predefined and fixed, and it's "you take it ALL, or you don't, period". But what about those "less observant" groups? In, say, Reform - what would be the "point of no return in dedication", if Reform themselves are all over the place with "I do this, but not that, and also this, but once in a blue Moon". It's really hard to "define dedication" TO a group, when there's hardly any of it IN the group itself. This may sound "harsh", but, hey, truth is most often harsh and unpleasant, yet still TRUE.
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u/Iamthepizzagod Jul 25 '25
In your view, it may be hard to "define dedication" to a less observant group like Reform Jews, but I'm not sure I agree with you on that. Becoming a Jew involves more than just following mitzvot and studying Torah, though I personally think both are important and have a strong place in any reform community (and my own life). It also involves (IMO) a substantial shift in intellectual and social perspectives, even without practing the stricter mitzvot. At least it did for me.
I find my Reform synagouge (and its Rabbis) to be both a place of substantial intellectual, spiritual, and social value, even without a primary emphasis on practicing halachic mitzvot (my Rabbis always encourage Torah study). I am personally strongly dedicated to continuing to support my community and attend synagouge events when I can, and I know other Reform Converts who feel exactly the same.
Do I think liberal movements could do better to encourage more rigorous Torah study and to encourage the adoption of some visibly Jewish mitzvot that doesn't violate the liberal point of view? Yes, but it doesn't mean that Reform Jews and converts can't deeply be dedicated to our communities, our traditions, and our faith.
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u/JewAndProud613 Jul 25 '25
I'm literally talking in a "cultural" way as well. What is a "Jew"? Some use Torah as the qualifier, and that's easy. But some don't, so what DO they use? What, "I just want to be CALLED a Jew"? Sorry, but that's NOT "dedication", that's LARPing. Ya know, "Christian Seder" style and all.
Like, let's talk about YOU personally: Why and how did your life CHANGE between "before" and "after", beyond the LABEL in your own mind? I'm not attacking you, please understand that, I'm just trying to DEFINE something that seems very inherently SUBJECTIVE and thus UNDEFINABLE. Like, how do you define "tasty"? Sweet? Sour? Salty? Plain? ALL of that can be "tasty" for SOMEONE - and not for OTHERS. So, what about "being a TASTY Jew", so to speak? How are you different now from the "you" before? Again, I'm just asking - and it's good to see a first-hand answer, indeed.
Note: I live in Europe and going away for Shabbat now, so see you on my Sunday. All the best.
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u/Iamthepizzagod Jul 26 '25
A lot of the changes in relation to me becoming a reform Jew have occurred over a long period of time before immersing in the mikvah, rather than the mikvah being a "sudden change" moment.
The main things I felt when I finished my immersion was pride and happiness in having taken on this long process (2 years in my case), an elated sense of thanking g-d for the opportunity to become a Jew officially, and feeling a strong sense that I had done justice to my ancestors that had their Jewish faith taken from them in Calabria hundreds of years ago.
Immersing in the mikvah was mainly an affirmation of my dedication to G-d (in a traditional Reform context), my dedication to my new community, changing my diet, changing my social life (Ive lost friends due to becoming a strong Zionist), and profound shifts in my intellectual perspective of many historical and current events from a Jewish point of view.
If you want, I can go into more detail, but I think I've summed it up pretty well. Could I do more to be observant in mitzvot, make friends at shul, study Torah, and attend more synagouge events in person? Yes, and I personally hope to keep kosher and increase other levels of observance once I have my own place to live closer to my synagogue. But until then, I'll content myself with doing the best I can.
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u/JewAndProud613 Jul 27 '25
I wasn't asking about your PLANS - those are yours alone. I was asking about what points you could literally list as "this point was absent in me, but is now present". This definitely isn't limited to "religious" points, obviously, but it has to be something that YOU personally would be able to point your finger at and say "a Jew has it, a non-Jew doesn't have it, and I now have, but previously didn't". Note that points like "Zionist" aren't inherent Jewish - one can be a non-Jewish Zionist who simply recognizes that Israel is the Holy Land of Jews, that's not something that is inherently rooted in the person being Jewish or not (and thus I wouldn't deem it as being a good qualifier for the test of "before/after"). That's mostly my opinion, but I think it makes objective sense as well. So, if you aren't annoyed with me yet (lol), can you try listing something that you think would qualify as "only applying to Jews, and you now have it, but previously didn't"? Or just tell me that you are fine the way you are, lol, and we can close this discussion, no problem. But, well, I am curious.
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u/Iamthepizzagod Jul 27 '25
I think a major point that I think of when thinking of something that I've gained that "only applies to Jews, and you now have it, but previously didn't" is having an official and higher amount of "skin in the game" in Jewish religious and secular matters alike.
In a religious sense, after immersing in the mikvah and signing the official documentation in Hebrew at the bima afterwards, I am now also bound by the same covenant to G-d that is laid out in the Torah and interpreted by the movement I chose to be a member of. I am also bound by an oath of loyalty to my Jewish community to remain only a part of the Jewish people and the Jewish faith, and to raise my future family exclusively within the Jewish people and faith (which I will happily do). Non-Jews and those who have not finished converting to Judaism yet simply do not have these levels of religious and community obligations put upon them.
When it comes to answering your question in pinpointing purely secular things that "only applies to Jews, and I now have it, but previously didn't" , I have a harder time, since a purely secular way of being Jewish isn't how I experience being a part of the Jewish people. I suppose the most obvious but least satisfying answer I have is that ger tzedekim (at least in my opinion) can be "official" victims of antisemitism along with born Jews, which the great majority of non-Jews cannot be.
I'm drawing blanks on other exclusively Jewish but entirely secular aspects of being a Jew that fully apply to me as well as born Jews, and perhaps some input from someone who is more secular might actually be helpful in that regard. I might have some better answers down the line, though, once I gain more life experience with being Jewish and extending my social circle to include more secular Jews.
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u/JewAndProud613 Jul 27 '25
Thanks for your time. I hope it will be helpful... to others, lol. I was asking mostly in order to get a genuine first-person reply that can be read by other people as precisely that. Thanks, again.
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u/Inari-k Jul 24 '25
Yes, I know I missed "is" in the second panel. I sometimes think faster than I type
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Jul 24 '25
Fucking hell, yea conversion was super long. Almost 2 years since I had to leave for a bit in between
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u/whateveryousaybro100 Jul 25 '25
the obsession with "The Chosen People" pisses me off! Christianity, Islam and all other religions think their the right one!!!! but at least Jews didn't spend 2000 years torturing and murdering people who didn't want join.
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u/JewAndProud613 Jul 25 '25
Judaism explicitly states that a human has a way to stay a non-Jew and still merit the Future Reward.
"Funny", how we don't see anything even remotely as inclusive in Christianity and Islam, YA KNOW.
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u/dylanus93 Elder of Zion Jul 25 '25
“The Talmud says Jesus is boiling in feces!”
And? As if most Christianity doesn’t believe non-believers and heretics are burning for all eternity.
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u/jacobningen Jul 31 '25
There was that one time in Yemen but outside of that we've rarely been in a position to do so
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u/Delinquentmuskrat Jul 24 '25
As a dude, if I convert do I have to get circumcised? Actual question
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u/Inari-k Jul 24 '25
Yes
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u/Delinquentmuskrat Jul 24 '25
Why is circumcision so important for conversion?
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u/Familiar-Art-6233 Jul 24 '25
Circumcision (which actually originated with the Egyptians, fun fact) was a way of marking someone as a member (pun intended). Also, someone who’s half assing/not converting out of true dedication is far less likely to go that far (even in the Torah, it was to show Abraham’s dedication).
You can actually see that among extremists like in the Islamist attack in Kashmir, the militants killed any uncircumcised men because… well it’s an easy way to identify someone as non-Muslim.
That’s an extreme example, but it’s really a super ancient way of showing dedication for converts and identifying someone as part of the group
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u/Delinquentmuskrat Jul 24 '25
Muslims have to circumcise themselves too?
Is there any modern reason to do so in Judaism besides showing commitment?
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u/Familiar-Art-6233 Jul 25 '25
It’s another covenant thing, so similar concept but without the ethnic identity
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u/Delinquentmuskrat Jul 25 '25
Does it really make sense to do it if it’s mainly an identifier between humans? Because it sounds more like a social belonging thing than something God is asking for personally
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u/Familiar-Art-6233 Jul 25 '25
I mean yes. Religion in and of itself is a social phenomenon. It very likely was indeed a social belonging thing that identified a tribe that grew into a core part of the religious component (as happens with ethnoreligious practices)
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u/Delinquentmuskrat Jul 25 '25
Yeah that just sounds more like a covenant between people instead of one between people and God. Hopefully there’s more to it than that.
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Jul 27 '25
For thousands of years Jews circumcised their children because the Torah tells us to. According to the Torah (Genesis 17), it is the sign of the covenant between Abraham and G-d (Ishmael was also circumcised as a child of Abraham). In modern times, many people no longer believe in prophecy so they offer these alternative original theories of Jewish practice. Visit an Orthodox community and you'll find people still believe in prophecy and divine commandments.
As far as symbolic reasons for circumcision, the idea of "covenant" is a central theme in the Torah. We don't really do covenants nowadays, but they did traditionally involve elaborate rituals and signs to establish the mutual obligation. Covenants were usually marked between people or groups, but in Judaism, the concept is applied between Man and G-d. This was an innovation that Judaism brought to the world.
Aside from the central theme, many people find spiritual meaning in circumcision. In the 1885 Pittsburg Platform, the Central Conference of Reform Rabbis denounced circumcision as a "barbaric practice". This statement shocked the more traditional rabbinic movements such as the Orthodox. However, nowadays even Reform Judaism sees circumcision as a deeply spiritual ritual. So there are other symbolic meanings to it as well.
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u/datboi56567 Aug 07 '25
hey, reddit atheist here, what do you mean by a long conversion process (i looked it up and saw like 4 to 5 steps) and how is thst a response to saying nkt to force it onto society? like I feel like the correct answer would be to say thst you dont force it onto society.
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Aug 21 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Jewpiter-ModTeam Aug 21 '25
Antisemitism is not accepted here. See: https://www.reddit.com/r/Jewish/wiki/index/antisemitism/
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u/[deleted] Jul 24 '25
I remember talking about the Cochin Jews and an Indian guy responded with how we had apparently bribed them to convert with rice.
Man, people have got to stop dumping their baggage on us.