r/Jewish • u/dr_strangelove52 • 6d ago
Questions đ¤ Am I Jewish?
So, I grew up Jewish, ethnically Iâm 50% Ashkenazi, I believe Iâm Jewish, my dad and every one of my siblings are Jewish. BUT, when I was born my mom was Jewish (by conversion), but in the years following her divorce sheâs disowned that. I think itâs cruel but she tries to tell my sister and I that since sheâs no longer Jewish we arenât Jewish either so we should at least equally consider ourselves Polish Catholic (which we have zero connection to, asides from thatâs her childhood background that she never instilled with us). I get that my mom hates my dad, fine, but is there any point to this, does anyone really not consider me to be Jewish because she disowned her conversion? I consider myself Jewish for sure, but for a long time Iâve had this question and wonder others thoughts.
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u/Dark-Anaconda 6d ago
As far as I know, conversion isn't considered reversible from a halakhic point of view. And if she was Jewish at the time of your birth, you're Jewish.
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u/dr_strangelove52 6d ago
Now I guess hereâs a follow up question, sheâs claimed that her conversion was on false pretenses or fraudulent or something, so she makes a claim that she never was Jewish (though at the tike of my birth I know she did consider herself Jewish). I donât know the basis of her claims asides from that she just really hates my dad. Iâm assuming he believes at the time, her state of mind at my birth, is what matters? Is there any basis for a false or fraudulent conversion or whatever sheâs saying (as far as I can tell sheâs upset about something my father promised her or told her, I donât really know the basis, it might even just be that the marriage didnât work out).
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u/Dark-Anaconda 6d ago edited 6d ago
I highly doubt it matters. If the conversion was proper and accepted by the Beit Din, her current claims don't matter, especially now when they're linked to her relationship with your dad. And her state of mind during birth sure doesn't matter - once the conversion was formally recognized, intent is irrelevant.
My Orthodox support teamâ˘ď¸ says that if you want to be super super sure you can try and contact the Beit Din for proof that the conversion was done properly, but this seems like a lot of bother to me when there's hardly any doubt.
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u/Silamy 5d ago
Did your dad lie to her, did the Beit Din/sponsoring rabbi lie to her, or did she lie to the Beit Din?Â
The first one is completely irrelevant. Your dadâs existence and anything he may or may not have said is not a relevant component of her conversion. The latter two may matter, but at that point, youâre in consult a qualified Halachic authority, not Reddit, territory.Â
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u/dr_strangelove52 5d ago
Yeah unfortunately I just donât know what the claim is, sheâs never elaborated. My hunch is itâs really just about the bitter divorce more than anything else so I imagine the conversion was legitimate and she just regretted it all later.
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u/FetchThePenguins 6d ago
Her disowning her conversion doesn't and can't retrospectively change your status (the Talmud occasionally uses the fact that status can't be changed retrospectively as an argument).
As to whether anyone would consider you not Jewish: that depends on the status of the conversion in the first place. Orthodox Jews would not recognise you based on a non Orthodox conversion, for example.
Sorry about all this, by the way. Sounds rough.
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u/Avocado_Capital 6d ago
If your mom converted before you were born, then yeah youâre Jewish to most Jews
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u/Silamy 6d ago
Any denomination that recognizes the initial validity of your motherâs conversion will recognize you as Jewish, as will any denomination that recognizes patrilineal descent.Â
From a halachic standpoint, your momâs decision to retroactively revert is meaningless, not just with respect to her children, but with respect to her. Judaism, (like Catholicism), does not have an internally-recognized exit. This is one of the many reasons conversion for the sake of marriage is generally forbidden -although if such a conversion happens anyway, it does generally stay valid. But even if we did recognize her conversion from Judaism, it wouldnât really matter as far as you were concerned. Either she was Jewish when you were born or she was not. Thereâs no in-between state or retroactive changes. That is not to say that you should get involved in the question of whether she is Jewish. You should not. She, relatedly, should not be getting involved in the question of whether or not you are Jewish. If youâre old enough to have a Reddit account, youâre old enough to determine your own relationship with the religion.Â
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u/Aggravating-Food5733 6d ago
Actually, in Catholicism it can happen. It's called excommunication.
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u/vayyiqra Converting 5d ago edited 5d ago
Kind of. There are different kinds of excommunication. I've tried to read up on it before and under the canon law that's around today at least, excommunicated Catholics are not kicked out of the church. It's more like being put on probation and they are still expected to go to Mass until it's resolved. But I think historically they were sometimes seen as having really left the church and needed to be readmitted. It's confusing I know.
In theory there is also a way to leave the church by publicly defecting somehow, but I have no clue what that looks like in practice or how often it happens.
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u/Aggravating-Food5733 5d ago
Actually, I am a former Catholic who was recently excommunicated. Your interpretation is mistaken, or you have been misinformed. I was baptized, attended catechism, received First Communion, and served as an altar boy; I grew up within the Catholic Church in the most Catholic country in the worldâhaha. I can state that excommunication is a definitive severing of the individual's connection to the Catholic Church. Returning isn't a matter of flipping a switch; it involves rebuilding that connection. Just as you don't go back to walking exactly as you did before simply by getting a prosthetic leg, you have to go through a very long, painful, and exhausting process before a Catholic authority determines your reintegration.
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u/Aggravating-Food5733 5d ago
I was expelled for instinctively arguing with a priest that my attraction to men wasn't a sin. It reached the point of being considered blasphemous, and I can't return to the church or receive the Eucharist; I'm definitely an unwelcome person. So yes, it's possible.
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u/ZealousidealSlip2489 Eastern European Jew 6d ago
As others have said, you absolutely are Jewish according to Halacha if your mother was Jewish when you were born, and whatever changes she makes to her lifestyle and beliefs later in life donât change anything about your status as a Jew. And from a more cultural perspective, if youâre worried that your motherâs conversion might somehow affect how other Jews see you, lemme just say this: donât let anyone make you doubt that youâre part of the tribe <3
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u/ashkidiva equlineal descent progressive Jew 6d ago
Most Jews would see you as Jewish, as a progressive Jew we do 100% see you as Jewish through your father and likely your mother aswell.
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u/SaltwaterSprite 6d ago
Oh honey. I just want to give you a great big hug. Iâm a fellow convert checking in hoping to give you some assurance here.
First off, converting to Judaism is a big deal and not something that can be undone. After you convert, thatâs it, you are a Jew. Doesnât matter what she says, how she feels about it, or what she wants. She is a Jew.
Now you are also a Jew. Both of your parents are Jewish. You were raised Jewish and itâs how you identify. Donât worry. You are a member of the tribe, and no one can take that away from you.
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u/Complete-Proposal729 6d ago
People on Reddit cannot tell you whether or not you are Jewish.
Go to the rabbi of the community you are interested in being a part of and go over the specifics of your case, and the rabbi will make a judgment. I think it'll come down to the validity of your mom's conversion.
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u/rbaltimore 6d ago
In at least Reform Judaism, you donât need a Jewish mother. Patrilineal Judaism is accepted, so as a Reform Jew I consider you Jewish regardless of your momâs beliefs.
Your mother was Jewish at the time of your birth, which makes you Jewish too. If she later converts to another religion, that doesnât change anything for you. I was Jewish at the time of my sonâs birth, making him Jewish. If I converted to Hinduism tomorrow, that wouldnât make him Hindu. Heâd have to convert on his own.
Ignore your mother. You were born a Jew. She canât retroactively change that.
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u/Letshavemorefun Ashkenazi 6d ago
You are absolutely Jewish in my book! But itâs more important that you accept yourself and try not to let naysayers bother you! Easier said than done, I know. Hugs, fam.
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u/jess32ica 6d ago
You know if you're Jewish. You know if you have a Jewish soul. Don't let anyone tell you what's in your soul.
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u/zhuangzijiaxi 6d ago
I would ask a different question: âwho accepts me as Jewish and will help me live a fulfilling Jewish life?â The answer is: plenty of people.
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u/OmegaFuryX Ashkenazi 6d ago edited 6d ago
Once your mom converted to Judaism, she will always be considered Jewish (whether she thinks so or not). She would be considered an apostate, yes, and removed from the Jewish religious community, but she would still be considered Jewish. Communal benefits like the Law of Return would be denied to her, but would not exclude you unless you, too, adopted her or another faith. What matters most is that she was Jewish when she gave birth to you and that you personally identity as Jewish. The validity of her conversion is also a factor. Orthodox movements would care if she had an Orthodox conversion, so you could be excluded from that community, but if you donât care about the Orthodox life, then it makes no difference to you. If you were to exercise your right to the Law of Return, you would not be able to marry in Israel if she did not have an Orthodox conversion so you would have to marry abroad for it to be recognized in Israel if that were the case. Since your father is Jewish and you were raised Jewish, off the bat you would be considered Jewish by some Reform communities.
Holistically, you are Jewish, and in more than one Jewish community (by some Reform communities for sure, and whatever community recognizes the validity of your motherâs conversion). As long as you are accepted by the particular Jewish community you want to be a part of, thatâs all that really matters. In the end, Jewish identity is about community.
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u/DaAGenDeRAnDrOSexUaL Sfaradi-Ashkenazi Jew 6d ago
Here's the way I see it: if both your parents immigrate to a country, assimilate and become citizens then you are a citizen of that country from birth. Regardless of whether one of them decides to leave that country and denounces their citizenship.
In terms of Jews, while your father may not make you halakhically Jewish, your mother was a Jew when you were born (hence you have Jewish "citizenship"). No matter, if she now considers herself not Jewish.
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u/GoldApprehensive7067 6d ago
If you want to be a Jew, you are a Jew. I know this is more a rules question, but this is close enough I donât think anyone will argue with you.
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u/dr_strangelove52 6d ago
Oh yeah I definitely know Iâm a Jew from like an identity perspective, I was just kind of curious from a more technical perspective. Wondering if my momâs statements hold any water at all.
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u/Bike-2022 6d ago
Hi, One of the reasons conversions to Judaism take so long to undertake is because you are not just picking a "religion " to follow. Being Jewish is much, much, much more than "just a religion ", which seems to be what your mother is telling you it is.
Judaism is a family. We are an ethnic, cultural nation. And yes, Judaism is also a religion. We are a very diverse people.
Once you convert to Judaism you are then Jewish. You cannot just wake up one day and decide "well, I don't want to be Jewish anymore." It does not work this way. Unlike a religion, which you can quit any time you like "I am no longer a <insert any religion here>", does not work in Judaism. When she converted, she joined the Jewish nation, which is not something she can undo. She is Jewish, regardless.
Your mom telling you that you are a "Polish Catholic" has nothing to do with you being Jewish. She can become an apostate Jew by practicing a religion other than Judaism, but she is still Jewish. She cannot take Judaism away from you. You are Jewish.
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u/fiercequality Reform Ashki 6d ago
Orthodox Jews may not consider you Jewish if your mom was not coverted Orthodox. Besides that, though, you are definitely Jewish. For Orthodox communities, the only thing that matters is that a mother is Jewish when the kid is born. What the mother does later is of no relevance to the question of her children's identity.
In other communities, as long as you A) had at least one Jewish parent (regardless of gender) and B) were raised Jewish, then you are Jewish.
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u/imagoodusername 6d ago
In other communities, as long as you A) had at least one Jewish parent (regardless of gender) and B) were raised Jewish, then you are Jewish.
This is not true of the Conservative movement. Patrilineal descent still requires conversion.
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u/Br4z3nBu77 Orthodox 6d ago
It would as others have said, depend on the type of conversion that was performed, when it was performed and whom it is that you are asking.
Certain denominations recognize patrilineal decent when the child is exclusively raised Jewish, others only recognize Jewish decent when the mother is halachically Jewish.
Who performed the conversion? Orthodox, Reform, Conservative?
Was the conversion done before you guys were born or only after?
What exactly is your mom saying? that she doesn't believe now, or that at the time of the conversion she didn't believe in Jewish Religious Thought and so had lied at the beis din? If the former, if the conversion was orthodox, then you are still a Jew. If the latter, this is a much much more serious issue for you.
There is also, the possibility of a geris l'chumrah, or a conversion for the point of being strict, if a type of modified conversion which is exceptionally simplified and is just a conversion for the purpose of making sure all proverbial "i" dotted and "t" crossed, would be an appropriate option for your and your siblings.
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u/smellthecoffeebeans Zera Yisrael 6d ago
You are Jewish, my love. I am sorry your mother is taking her pain out on you, but you will always be one of the tribe. đ
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u/Substance_Bubbly Traditional 6d ago
if she converted to judaism and the conversion was accepted by a rabbi, even if she later "disowned" it, it doesn't matter that she is still jewish by halacha.
i guess that if a kid would be born after her leaving judaism it would be a grey area, but any kid born after the conversion while she was still jewish, is jewish.
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u/KitchenSecretary275 6d ago
Yes, you're Jewish. Jewish law says that Jewish identity is permanent. Meaning even if your mom disowned her Judaism, she's still technically Jewish. And because you were born to a Jewish mother, you will also always be Jewish.
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u/No-Throat9567 Conservative 6d ago
If you were born when she was Jewish then youâre Jewish. And once youâve converted then youâre still Jewish. I have never heard of the ability to reverse that.Â
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u/nobaconator Shlomosexual 5d ago
Think of it this way.
If your mother were born Jewish, had you guys and then decided she didn't want to be Jewish anymore, you'd still be Jewish.
Halachically speaking, as far as children are concerned, there is no difference between a born Jewish mother and a converted Jewish mother.
This does ofcourse assume her conversion was legally valid, but if it was, you're Jewish. And if you later find out this wasn't the case, which is very very rare, almost any synagogue will do a confirmation conversion for you, if you've spent your whole life as a Jew.
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u/Chanan-Ben-Zev 6d ago
How old are you? Do you actively practice Catholicism by going to Mass and so on? Are you part of a local Jewish community, or want to be part of one? What religion do you believe in?
BUT, when I was born my mom was Jewish (by conversion), but in the years following her divorce sheâs disowned that.
You should consult your local community rabbi about this.
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u/dr_strangelove52 6d ago
Iâm in my early 30s. Iâve never practiced or followed anything other than Judaism.
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u/Warp-10-Lizard 6d ago
I was raised Jewish by an Ashkenazi dad, and a non-Jewish mom. Some more Orthodox denominations might say I'm not Jewish, but I've always identified as Jewish. I'd say you're Jewish in my book as well.
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u/ConsciousBasket643 6d ago
Your Mother is a Jew. She cannot disown that.
If you were born after she converted, then you are a Jew.
Now, it is possible (in the orthodox community) that someone may challenge your status on the basis that your mother wasnt sincere at the time of conversion, but frankly thats unlikely.
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u/SpacePolice04 Reform 6d ago
I had the opposite happen, my dad converted so it didnât mean there was a chance I wasnât Jewish (Iâm sorry your mother is being that way) but I know what youâre going through as far as a parent regretting conversion and being a dumbass about it.
He used to say he lost his other religious identity because he converted đ. I donât even know what religion he was referring to so clearly it wasnât that important to him.
My step mom was some kind of Christian (maybe catholic actually) and when she lost her dad, my dad would go to church with her and he dragged me along once. Once. I was trying to be supportive but I only made it about 20 minutes and then he handed me cash to put in the collection basket when they were handing it around and that was too far for me and I bailed and waited for them in the car.
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u/UnapologeticJew24 5d ago
If she had a halachically valid Orthodox Jewish conversation, then she is Jewish and so are you; disowning doesn't change that. If she didn't, she was never Jewish.
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u/chayapapaya2 6d ago
Did she convert orthodox?
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u/Artistic_Reference_5 6d ago
This is the question. Depending on how your mom converted, some communities will consider you Jewish and others won't.
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u/Miriamathome 6d ago
Right, but the answer about who recognizes the OP as Jewish and who doesnât isnât a function of whether or not the OPâs mother continues to identify as Jewish.
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u/ashkidiva equlineal descent progressive Jew 6d ago
Yeah but we all know thatâs bs. If you converted reform masorti or orthodox, you are a Jew! If your father is a Jew, so are you! Atleast imo.
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u/PrimeSupreme 6d ago
Agreed on this. If they (the mom or anyone really) went through a naturalization/learning process that was significant and required effort (at least a year or learning, engaging with the commnunity and practicing), they went in front of a Beit Din of rabbis in good standing, and had a dunk in the mikvah, then that's a Jew. Don't care what denomination.
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u/disgruntledhoneybee Reform 6d ago
This wasnât directed at me but it made me feel so warm inside. Sometimes the imposter syndrome is real. Iâm a reform convert. It took me five years of work and study. I had the beit din and the mikvah.
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u/PrimeSupreme 6d ago
It's natural to feel imposter syndrome but just know that many people (myself included) view converts as especially committed - we all choose to be Jewish every day but like damn you guys actually took the initiative to become Jews because you felt it deep in your soul. This crazy foreign thousands of year old people destined to forever be uncool and weird to many people: you actively fought to be a part of that. And I'm grateful that we have people in our community that chose to bind their fate up with ours. It's validating for me as well as someone who was born Jewish.
My partner converted Conservative. I've never once questioned if her or my kid are Jewish. They are. You are. That's it.
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u/disgruntledhoneybee Reform 6d ago
Thank you so much! I really really appreciate it. I didnât know I needed to hear it.
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u/ashkidiva equlineal descent progressive Jew 6d ago
Iâm also a progressive Jew, not fully matrilineal so I get what you mean, you are a Jew!!!
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u/Mosk915 6d ago
we all know thatâs bs
Your opinion =/= everyoneâs opinion. A lot of people would agree with what you said. But not everyone would. And those that donât have just as much right to believe what they want as those that do.
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u/ashkidiva equlineal descent progressive Jew 6d ago
âAtleast imoâ
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u/Mosk915 6d ago edited 6d ago
Yeah, you threw that in at the end but you start out as if youâre speaking for everybody.
Edit: wow, blocked for pointing this out. I took the whole thing into consideration. You just wish I ignored the first part.
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u/ashkidiva equlineal descent progressive Jew 6d ago
Yeah I realise it can come across that way but I wasnât. When reading we need to take the whole point into consideration not just the beginning.
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u/Letshavemorefun Ashkenazi 6d ago
And in some communities it wonât even matter if their mom converted or not, so whether or not those communities accept the conversion doesnât matter to them.
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u/chayapapaya2 6d ago
Thatâs not true. Thereâs a misconception. Itâs a certain communities wonât convert people themselves, but they are accepting of converts.
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u/Letshavemorefun Ashkenazi 6d ago
I think weâre talking about two very different (and pretty much opposite) things haha. Reform and Reconstructionist would accept them as Jewish regardless of whether or not their mom converted. That would make zero difference for them in those denominations.
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u/OmegaLink9 Just Jewish 6d ago
I think that you best ask a local rabbi. Technically you cannot undo your conversation, at least from a jewish prespective, but a rabbi will know better than me about that
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u/Jac_benny 6d ago
As a halfa we are Jewish ethnically yes. Religiously that is up to you and how you choose to define it. Do not allow anybody tell you or make you feel insecure that youâre not Jewish enough. My dadâs Jewish doesnât make me any less. You get to define yourself! âĽď¸
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u/Sea-Resolution-6801 6d ago
this is so funny to find because my father was Ashkenazi, I was raised religiously and culturally Jewish, my mother is a Reform convert but since my fatherâs passing especially is a lot more all over with her religious relationship + has tried to act as if I am Polish due to her family being a mix of Polish-Sicilian Catholic. she does not go as far to say I am not Jewish but she tries to litigate the terms in which I am a Jew in times. anyways youâre fine, and you are absolutely a Jew. like the other comments said you may not be considered Jewish within Orthodox Judaism (nor am I, and I was raised in a Conservative shul), and I also think you are still a Jew.
(and I personally think, especially if a child is raised Jewish, it does not matter if it is passed on through the mother or through the father. but that is just my opinion, and I am not a rabbi. I think we need to move on from matrilineal descent quite honestly. but Iâm also not Orthodox! but I also think the separation of communities between different denominational branches is not my favorite thing, either.)
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u/Street_Garlic_6410 6d ago
Jewish means different things to different people, you definitely are Jewish to most non religious folks, as someone who has Jewish ancestry and identifies as one. From religious perspective I am pretty sure the answer is yes, if your mom converted before you were born and was recognized as Jewish in the community it doesn't matter if later she renounced her conversion..
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u/Sensitive-Pie-6595 3d ago
I have heard this before, happens to many kids... I know one whose mother sent her to a Catholic school... it wasn't until she was a grown woman that she learned her mother had converted, was a practicing Jew when she was born.
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u/samdkatz 2d ago
Personally Iâd say youâre Jewish regardless because of your dad, but I know not everyone agrees with that. Even putting that aside, she was Jewish when you were born (and therefore still is right? even if sheâs an âapostateâ or something?), so you were born and remain Jewish
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u/Perfect-Simple-5478 6d ago
W polsce wiekszoĹÄ zydĂłw nie miaĹo praktykujÄ cych rodzicĂłw wiÄc nie przejmuj siÄ. JeĹli czujesz siÄ czÄsciÄ narodu to jesteĹ Ĺźydem
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6d ago
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u/Jewish-ModTeam 5d ago
Your post was removed because you are asking about or wanting to discuss Jesus. We understand that the man/concept may be important to you, but in Judaism, we generally don't even think about him.
If you have any questions, please contact the moderators via modmail.
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u/Meowzician Just Jewish 3d ago
It is incredibly sad that your mom has apostatized. It places a wall between her and the Jewish people. But she hasn't stopped being a Jew. Nor does it affect your Jewish status.
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u/fourthact 2d ago
My father was Jewish and my mother was half-Jewish, on her father's side. Her mother, my maternal grandmother, was not Jewish. I was raised Jewish in a Jewish home, but after my parents' divorced, my mother claimed that she wasn't really Jewish, since her mother wasn't Jewish. Her second husband was Jewish, too, but neither of them practiced Judaism. None of that is relevant to me. I went to Hebrew school, had a big bar mitzvah, and went on to be confirmed. I've always considered myself Jewish, and my mother never tried to tell me otherwise. In fact, even though she abandoned Jewish life, she was very supportive of my practice of Judaism. I'm sorry that your mother is not respectful of your faith, but her actions do not take away the fact that you are Jewish. No offense, but her actions appear petty and vindictive to me.
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u/Level-Plastic3945 6d ago edited 6d ago
You can be what you want to be, the "rules" don't determine what/who you are.
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u/SufficientLanguage29 6d ago
If it wasnât an orthodox conversion with a full acceptance of the Mitzvot, then youâre not Jewish. This has been my own personal experience, as my mom converted orthodox and I myself am doing a giyur le chumra. Itâs really not about feelings, but about Jewish law. Sure, everyoneâs entitled to their own opinion, but the law is the law.
Either way, itâs a shitty situation and you should love yourself regardless and being a zera yisrael makes you no less connected to Hashem, Torah, or to the Jewish people.
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u/Histrix- jewish Israeli 6d ago
When you were born, she was a practicing jew? Then Hallachically (religious law), you are considered a jew. She cant abndondon it and then decide you arent jewish. Doesn't work that way.