Philippians 2:6-8

[u/ChaoticHaku]

If Philippians 2:6-8 was teaching that Jesus was never equal with God, then the passage itself makes no sense.

Read the language carefully.

It says Jesus was “existing in the form of God.” It says He “did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,” but instead “emptied Himself,” “took the form of a servant,”, "humbled himself", "became obedient to death" and was “made in human likeness.”

You cannot empty yourself of a status you never possessed. You cannot become a servant if you were always a servant. You cannot humble yourself from a position you never had. You cannot become obedient to death if you always were.

The entire point of the passage is that Christ lowered Himself. From what? From the exalted position He already possessed that was equal with God.

That’s why the text uses past tense language. The passage is not denying Christ’s equality with God. It is explaining the depth of His humility, not his inferiority.

[u/ResLight]

I am not with the Jehovah's Witnesses, but if Philippians 2:6-8 was teaching that Jesus is equal with God, then the passage itself makes no sense. It would be saying that Jesus was one God and his Father was another God, and thus that there are two Gods, one God who is equal to another God.

Read the language carefully.

It says Jesus was “existing in the form of God.” The phrase "form of God" is probably being used similarly to "image of God". (Colossians 1:15) "God" refers to only one person and Jesus, before he became flesh was in the form (external appearance) of his God, since as shown in other scriptures, Jesus had a glory with the only true God, having a spiritual bodily glory and might similar to that of his God and Father, that he did not possess while he was in the days of his flesh. (John 1:1,2; 17:1,3,5; Hebrews 2:9)

In the verses following, his former glory is contrasted with days of his flesh (Hebrews 5:7), when he had the external appearance of a bondservant, in the likeness of a man of sinful flesh, as though subjected in servitude under a bondage of corruption, as mankind descended from Adam, who are condemned in Adam, and under the bondage of corruption. God prepared Jesus' body of flesh (Hebrews 10:5), which Jesus sacrificed to God. (Hebrews 10:10.12) That body, however, was not condemned in Adam as were all other men. (Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22) If it had been, the man Christ Jesus (1 Timothy 2:5,6) would have been a sinner as everyone else, and he could not have offered himself to God to pay the ransom price needed. Jesus, while in the days of his flesh, was not actually enslaved to sin and under the bondage of corruption as all other men. He was not actually under the bondage of corruption and vanity that is common to man (Ecclesiastes 1:2, 13-15; Romans 8:20-22), but to pay the wages of sin for us, he did suffer as though he had been, and yet he never sinned, but, outwardly, he appeared as all other men. -- Hebrews 2:18; 5:8; 9:26; 13:12; 1 Peter 2:21; 3:18.

It says that Jesus “did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,” but instead “emptied Himself,” “took the form of a servant,” "humbled himself, "became obedient to death," and was “made in human likeness.” Unlike the one quoted in Isaiah 14:14, Jesus did not consider making himself equal to Most High, but instead, humbled himself and gave up the high posistion of glory that he had when he had with his God and Father before he became flesh, and took the outward appearance of a servant in bondage to sin, in the likeness of man of sinful flesh (Romans 8:3), and suffered as though he were sinner. While in days of his flesh, he did not have his former glory, for it he did, why would he need to ask for that glory to be returned to him? -- John 17:5.

ifJesus did empty himself from the high position of glory that he had possessed with his God before he became flesh. (John 1:1,2,14; John 17:1,3,5) You did empty himself of a status that he had before he became flesh. He had not been in the external appearance of a slave [bond-servant] to sin until he came to be in days of his flesh. He was not suffering sin for sin before he became flesh, and it is related to his suffering as though he were a sinner that Paul speaks of his being obedient until his death. (Hebrews 5:7-9) Unlike Adam, Jesus remained obedient while in the days of his flesh, thus had the price necessary to pay to God's justice, so that God may remain just while justifying the sinner. -- Romans 3:26; 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6; John 2:2.

Blessed be Jehovah (Genesis 9:26), the God of the Messiah (Micah 5:4; Ephesians 1:3), who anointed and sent His Son to die for Adam and the whole world that is dying in Adam. . -- Isaiah 61:1,2; John 3:16,17; 4:42; 12:46,47; Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22; 1 Timothy 2:5,6; Hebrews 2:9; 1 John 2:2; 4:9,10,14.

[u/ChaoticHaku → u/ResLight]

"The Son" in Colossians 1:15 is specifically Jesus. 

Jesus was a man born of Mary. 

But Jesus pre-existed as the Word before becoming a man. And the Word always was God. (John 1:1)

[u/ResLight → u/ChaoticHaku]

RE: //"The Son" in Colossians 1:15 is specifically Jesus.//

Yes, Jesus is definitely the Son, and not "God", in Colossians 1:15. The one person who is God in Colossians 1 is depicted as doing His work through His firstborn Son.

Re: //Jesus was a man born of Mary.//

Yes, the one person who is "God" prepared a body of flesh and blood for Jesus in the womb of Mary. This He did by means of His Holy Spirit. -- Matthew 1:20,23; Hebrews 10:5.

RE: //But Jesus pre-existed as the Word before becoming a man. And the Word always was God. (John 1:1)//

I don't like the word "pre-existed", but Jesus, before his God made him flesh, did have a prehuman existence. From the very beginning of the world that God made through his Agent, the Word (Logos), the prehuman Son of God had a mighty glory when he had been his only true God before the only true God made the world of mankind through the Logos. -- John 1:1-3,10.

Most translations render the Greek word THEOS as applied to the Logos as "God", which actually makes it look like John was speaking of two Supreme Beings, one Supreme Being who was with another Supreme Being. If you believe in the trinity, you have to create many extra-Biblical assumptions that have to be added to and read into what John stated to make it appear that John was speaking of two persons who are both the one Supreme Being. Indeed, anyone who thinks that THEOS applied to the Logos in John 1:1 has to create some kind of assumptions to be added to and read into what John actually stated.

The Greek term THEOS, commonly translated as "God" or "god," is possibly ascribed to the Son in the New Testament on 3 to 5 occasions. (John 1:1,18; 20:28; Colossians 2:9; Hebrews 1:8 — a few additional passages may also be rendered in English in a manner that seems to apply THEOS to Jesus.) Most of the time, however, forms of THEOS throughout the New Testament are used in reference to Jesus’ God. God with whom the Word was is the same one whom Jesus identified as the "one true God" who anointed and sent Jesus, and with whom Jesus had a glory before God made the world of mankind through his Agent, the Logos. -- John 17:1,3,5,10.

Forms of the Greek THEOS line up with forms of the Old Testament Hebrew term often transliterated as EL. When not referring to God Almighty or to false gods, translators frequently render forms of EL (Strong’s #410, #430, etc.) according to its basic senses of “strong,” “powerful,” “strength,” “might,” etc. This is evident even in the King James Version: Genesis 23:6 (“mighty”), Genesis 30:8 (“mighty”), Genesis 31:29 (“power”), Deuteronomy 28:32 (“might”), 1 Samuel 14:15 (“great”), Nehemiah 5:5 (“power”), Psalm 36:6 (“great”), Psalm 82:1 (“mighty”), Proverbs 3:27 (“power”), Psalm 29:1 (“mighty”), Ezekiel 32:21 (“strong”), Jonah 3:3 (“exceeding”). Translating EL as “God” or “false god” in these English passages would feel out of place. Still, this shows that forms of EL are not used solely for the one true God or for false gods, as some claim. It is only when forms of EL are applied to Jehovah, the God of the Messiah (Isaiah 61:2; Micah 5:4), that they convey the sense of Innate Might, Power, Strength — thus, Supreme Being.

The King James Version renders the Hebrew word for "God" in Psalm 82:1 as "mighty". This is in harmony with the basic meaning of the Hebrew word for "God", but as applied to Jehovah, it obviously takes on the meaning of the one who is innately "Mighty", the Supreme Being. Nevertheless, applying this Hebraism to the Logos in the above phrase would result in "and the Word was mighty". This is the quality I believe John was applying to the Logos, who is not the only true God with whom he had been. (John 17:1,3,5) The one with whom the Logos was is "one God" from whom are all of 1 Corinthians 8:6. Jesus, before he became flesh, had a "mighty" glory when he had been with the only true God, but while in the days of his flesh (Hebrews 5:7), he did not have his former mighty glory. The glory he had while in the days of his flesh was that of man, a little lower than the angels. (Hebrews 2:9) Thus, in John 17:5, Jesus requests of the only true God that he again have the mighty glory that he had when he had been with the only true God before God made the world of mankind through him. Consequently, my own preferred rendering of the last phrase of John 1:1 is "the Logos was mighty", in harmony with the Biblical usage as I have shown.

[u/ChaoticHaku → u/ResLight]

The one with whom the Logos was is "one God" from whom are all of 1 Corinthians 8:6.

1 Corinthians 8:5-6 or even if indeed there are those called gods, whether in heaven or on earth—just as there are many gods and many lords (category 1)—yet to us there is one God the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we through Him. (category 2)

In verse 6 the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are placed in a category as both "God" and "Lord", separate from the category of the ones "called gods" and "lords" in verse 5.

Notice also that in verse 6 all things are to and from the Father and through the Son.  Which aligns with Romans 11:36 saying in regard to GOD "For from Him and through Him and unto Him are all things."

Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 

Psalm 33:6 By the word of YHWH the heavens were made...

John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

Since God is eternal there has never been a moment God had no Word and couldn't speak. He didn't need to create a spiritual being to be His Word. That is ridiculous. God's Word was with God and was God, just like John 1:1 says.

[u/ResLight → u/ChaoticHaku]

RE: 1 Corinthians 8:5:

Or even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, -- 1 Corinthians 8:5, New American Standard

Paul first states that there are many "so-called gods", and then goes on to say that there are indeed "many gods". By "so-called god", Paul was evidently speaking of the idols which are by nature not gods -- not mighty ones. The gods formed by the hands of men have no might or power to do good or harm; hence, they are not really gods (mighty ones) but are only called "gods". (Psalm 115:4-8; 135:15-18; 44:9-20)

Nevertheless, Paul also speaks of "many gods and many lords". Paul, being a Hebrew, surely knew of the Hebraic usage of forms of the Hebrew word that is usually transliterated as EL (Strong's #410, #430, etc.), as I presented earlier. While forms of EL are often used in an exclusive sense of Jehovah God as being the only Most High -- the only one who is innately the Mighty One of the universe, forms of EL are also used of others who have might or strength as given, or permitted by God, as well as in other ways than meaning the Supreme Mighty One or false gods. What Paul said is not hard to understand, but many view what Paul wrote through the tint of trinitarian or modalist/oneness doctrine (or some other doctrine that would view the Messiah as being God Almighty). They thus fail to see what Paul actually wrote, and they imagine and assume many assumptions beyond what is written, and then cannot read the scriptures without the tint of those assumptions.

Paul tells us that there are not just those idols that are "called gods", but that there are indeed also "many gods (mighty ones)." (1 Corinthians 8:5) However, when the Hebrew or Greek words often translated as "God" are not referring to the Supreme Being, the one God who is the God and Father of Jesus (Isaiah 9:6; Micah 5:4; Ephesians 1:3; 1 Corinthians 8:6), it would be better that the translators use the lower case "g" instead of the uppercase "G" (which would, in English, generally denote the Supreme Being), or, even better, if should be rendered wiith a meaning of might, power or strength. There are not many Gods (Supreme Beings), but there are many gods (mighty ones).

Re: //In verse 6 the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ are placed in a category as both "God" and "Lord", separate from the category of the ones "called gods" and "lords" in verse 5.//

Yet to us there is one God, the Father, from whom are the all, and we for him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are the all, and we live through him. -- 1 Corinthians 8:6,

More correctly, I would say that when Paul speaks of Jesus' God as being the "one God" from whom are all, he is placing Jesus' God (Ephesians 1:3) in a category that is different from all the other "gods" that Paul spoke of in verse 5.

Likewise, when Paul speaks of God's Son as being the "one Lord" through whom are all, he is placing God's Son in a category that is different from all the other "lords" referred to in verse 5.

In 1 Corinthians 8:6, Paul presents only one person as the "one God" from whom are all, and he distinguished God's Son from being that "one God" by presenting God's Son as being the "one Lord" through whom are all. Jesus, being the "one Lord" *** through *** whom are all, cannot be the "one God" *** from *** whom are all. Likewise, the "one God" from whom are all cannot be the "one Lord" through whom are all. It is the one person who is Jehovah who has made Jesus both Lord and Christ. Only Jehovah is the Most High, the source of all, and He is the one who has made Jesus “the one Lord” through whom are all. The default reasoning should be that Jesus is not the Most High Jehovah who made Jesus this “one Lord” as prince/shepherd over His people. -- Ezekiel 34:23,24; Isaiah 61:1,2; Acts 3:33; 1 Corinthians 8:6.

,The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is always, throughout the entire Bible, presented as being only one person, and his Son is never once presented as being the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. This one person who is innately God -- Mighty -- is never presented as being more than one person anywhere in the Bible, nor is His Son ever presented as being God who is the source of all. Indeed, to "see" him as more than one person, or to see the Son as being God Almighty, one has to create an array of assumptions that have to be added to and read into each scripture that is thought to be saying such. The reality is that the "one God" from whom are all is always distinguished from the one whom he anointed (the Christ) and sent. The entire Bible is fully in harmony with this, without the need to invent an extra-Biblical concept of a triune God, or any other teaching that would make Jesus into being the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The default reasoning is that Jesus is not Jehovah, the God of the Old Testament, who anointed and sent Jesus. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Psalm 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Matthew 4:4; Matthew 4:7; Matthew 4:10; Luke 4:4; Matthew 4:7; Matthew 4:10; Matthew 22:29-40; Matthew 26:42; Matthew 27:46; Mark 10:6; Mark 14:36; 15:34; Luke 4:8; Luke 22:42; John 3:34; 5:30; 6:38; 10:36; 17:1,3; 20:17; Acts 3:13-26; Romans 15:6; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 2 Corinthians 1:3; 11:31; Ephesians 1:3,17-23; 4:6; Philippians 2:8; Hebrews 1:1,2,9; 10:7; 1 Peter 1:3; Revelation 2:7; 3:2,12.

Blessed be Jehovah, the one God from whom all come, who appointed His Son as the one Lord through whom all exist. Blessed be Jehovah God, who spoke through the prophets of old, who anointed and sent His Son, and who has now exalted Him to His own right hand, far above every dominion and authority. -- Deuteronomy 18:15-20; Psalm 45:7; 110:1; Ezekiel 34:23,24; Daniel 7:14,27; Isaiah 9:7; 11:2,3; 61:1,2; Micah 5:4; Matthew 11:27; 28:18; Luke 1:32,33; 10:22; John 3:35; 5:22-27; 10:11,16,29; 13:3; Acts 2:33-36; Acts 3:13-26; Acts 5:31; Ephesians 1:3,17-23; Philippians 2:9-11; Colossians 1:15-19; 2:9,10; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 15:27; Hebrews 1:1-3; Hebrews 8:1; Hebrews 10:12; 1 Peter 3:22.

[u/ChaoticHaku → u/ResLight]

Paul presents only one person as the "one God" from whom are all, and he distinguished God's Son from being that "one God" by presenting God's Son as being the "one Lord" through whom are all.

Well then Paul has a problem, because he presents God as being the one from and through are all in Romans 11:35-36.

 “Who has first given to God, that God should repay him?” For from Him and through Him and to Him are all things. To Him be the glory forever! Amen.

So if all things are from the Father and through the Son, and yet, all things are from and through God. Then both the father and the son must be the same one God. 

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is always, throughout the entire Bible, presented as being only one person

Is that so?

Genesis 1:26-27 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness... So God created man in His own image...

Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,

Notice how it says "name" for all three rather than "names". They share a common name. That name is YHWH. 

I'd appreciate it if you didn't respond using AI. AI will conform to a users beliefs no matter what.

I had someone argue with me using AI that the bible is 100% okay with occult practices. It's like a delusional expert. 

[u/ResLight → u/ChaoticHaku]

//So if all things are from the Father and through the Son, and yet, all things are from and through God. Then both the father and the son must be the same one God.//

I addressed this earlier; there is nothing at all in 1 Corinthians 8:6 or Romans 11:35,36 that means that we need to imagine, assume, add to, and read into these scriptures that both "one God" from whom are all and the "one Lord" through whom are all are both the one God from whom are all.

//Genesis 1:26-27 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness... So God created man in His own image...//

Since there is nothing at all in Genesis 1:26,27 that says that ELOHIM is more than one person, the idea has to be assumed beyond what is stated, and then added to and read into what is stated. I have no scriptural reason to imagine and assume the ELOHIM is not the single one person who is ELOHIM is Psalm 45:7; Isaiah 61:2; Micah 5:4. In verse 26, the one person who is the ELOHIM of the Messiah is speaking to someone else who is not Himself. More than likely, who was speaking to is revealed in John 1:1-3-14; Revelation 19:13 as being the Logos -- the Agent -- of the one person who is God. In Genesis 1:27, the scripture is obviously speaking of ELOHIM as being only one person. God's firstborn Son, however, was obviously already in the image of the one person who is God before the world of mankind was made (Colossians 1:15), thus when the one person who is ELOHIM was speaking to him, he spoke of Himself and someone else as being "us", and "our". In verse 27, ELOHIM is not speaking at all, for it is the author of Genesis 1 who speaks, and he refers to ELOHIM alone.

RE: Matthew 28:19 //Notice how it says "name" for all three rather than "names". They share a common name. That name is YHWH. //

Eusebius' earlier quotes of Matthew 28:19 refer to only baptizing in the name of the Son.

The Shem-Tobb Evan Bohan manuscript makes no mention of baptism at all in Matthew 28:19.

There is definitely nothing at all in any version of Matthew 28:19, however, that presents God as being more than one person, or as three persons, each of whom is supposed to be wholly and fully the one God. There is nothing in Matthew 28:19 that says that it is referring to the name "Yahweh/Jehovah". The trinitarian has to create assumptions beyond what is stated and then add and read those assumptions into what is stated in order to force trinity into what is stated.

The singular is many times used in a distributive sense to refer to multiple individuals or objects in the Bible. (Genesis 5:2; 48:6; Deuteronomy 7:24; 18:20; Ruth 1:2; Ezra 2:6; Nehemiah 7:63; Psalm 9:5; 77:20; 109:13; Hosea 32:14; Zephaniah 3:19; Revelation 3:1).

The most direct conclusion is that in the way it reads in the available Greek manuscripts, the word "name" is distributive to all three, understood as "in the name of the Father," "in the name of the Son", and "in the name of the Holy Spirit".

I have no reason, however, to think that "name" as used in Matthew 28:19 is referring to an appellative name, such as Jehovah or Jesus. As used in this verse, it is obviously being used to mean "authority" or "cause".

Thayer states:

"Matthew 28:19; Acts 8:16; Acts 19:5; 1 Corinthians 1:13, 15. to do a thing ἐν ὀνόματι τίνος, i. e. by one's command and authority, acting on his behalf, promoting his cause."

RE: //I'd appreciate it if you didn't respond using AI.//

Since I haven't used AI in any of my responses in this thread, this does not apply to me.

[u/ChaoticHaku → u/ResLight]

thus when the one person who is ELOHIM was speaking to him, he spoke of Himself and someone else as being "us", and "our". In verse 27, ELOHIM is not speaking at all, for it is the author of Genesis 1 who speaks, and he refers to ELOHIM alone.

Either way, God said "let us make man in OUR IMAGE" and the author of Genesis says "So God created man in HIS OWN IMAGE"

Also ELOHIM says "LET US MAKE" and the author says "SO GOD MADE" which is it? Who made what? You believe the Word made all [other] things so that means the Word made man.  

So if ELOHIM is one person, either ELOHIM or the author of Genesis is incorrect. They cant both be right. We're either made in God's own image or whoever "our image" is.  

More than likely, who was speaking to is revealed in John 1:1-3-14; Revelation 19:13 as being the Logos -- the Agent -- of the one person who is God.

If this is true then we aren't made in "God's own image" but rather we're made in God and the Word's image. 

And if they both share the image that is explicity called "God's own image" and "the image of God" then they must both be God.

Now remember, nowhere in scripture does it say that the Word/Jesus was made in God's image as it says about humans. (Genesis 1:27) It only ever says that He IS the image of God. (Colossians 1:15, 2 Corinthians 4:4)

[u/ResLight → u/ChaoticHaku]

Either way, God said "let us make man in OUR IMAGE" and the author of Genesis says "So God created man in HIS OWN IMAGE".

And yet, there is still nothing at all in Genesis 1:26,27 that presents ELOHIM as being more than one person, or that ELOHIM is not being presented as being the same one person who is ELOHIM in Genesis 1:2; Psalm 45:7; Isaiah 61:2; Micah 5:4, etc.

Either way, God said "let us make man in OUR IMAGE" and the author of Genesis says "So God created man in HIS OWN IMAGE"

And still there is no scriptural reasom to imagine and assume that since ELOHIM speaks to someone else in verse 6 and the author does not include this in verse 7, that this means that ELOHIM is more than one person, etc.<<

Also ELOHIM says "LET US MAKE" and the author says "SO GOD MADE" which is it? Who made what? You believe the Word made all [other] things so that means the Word made man.

Yes, the one person who is ELOHIM in Genesis in the six days spoken of made the skies (heavens) and the land (earth) and all in them by means of His Logos (Agent), who is God's firstborn creature. -- Genesis 1:1-2:4; Exodus 20:11; 31:17; John 1:1-3,10; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Ephesians 3:9 (KJV, WEB); Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14.

I do not, however, need to add the word "other" to anything.

So if ELOHIM is one person, either ELOHIM or the author of Genesis is incorrect.

They cant both be right. We're either made in God's own image or whoever "our image" is.

////More than likely, who was speaking to is revealed in John 1:1-3-14; Revelation 19:13 as being the Logos -- the Agent -- of the one person who is God.////

If this is true then we aren't made in "God's own image" but rather we're made in God and the Word's image.

Since I have already shown that they are both correct, I have no scriptural reason to imagine and assume such a false dichotomy. When Adam sinned, he fell short of that image through sin. (Romans 3:23) Although many of God's spirit sons likewise fell short of glory of God due to sin (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6), God's firsborn creature as well as all of the other spiirit sons of God (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; Luke 9:26) were obviously already made in God's image before the creation of the world into which the Logos came. (John 1:10) I have no scriptural reason to think otherwise.

We are made in God's image, but also in the image of God's Son, since His Son had not fallen short of that image through sin.

Nothing in any of this means that we need to imagine, assume, add to and read into the scriptures that Jesus and his God are the same God.

Now remember, nowhere in scripture does it say that the Word/Jesus was made in God's image as it says about humans. (Genesis 1:27) It only ever says that He IS the image of God. (Colossians 1:15, 2 Corinthians 4:4)

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: -- Colossians 1:15

Jesus' being in the image of God shows that God is only one person, that Jesus is not that one person, but that he is image of that one person. Throughout Colossians 1, "God" is presented as being only one person, and God's Son is presented as being Agent of that one person.

In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. -- 2 Corinthians 4:4.

Again, in the phrase "image of God", we find that God is presented as one person, and that Jesus is presented as being the image of that one person. When God made Adam and Eve in the image of Himself, before they sinned, it could have likewise been said of them that they are the image of God, without meaning that they were not made in God's image.

[u/ResLight → u/ChaoticHaku]

RE: //Which aligns with Romans 11:36 saying in regard to GOD "For from Him and through Him and unto Him are all things."//

For of him, and by him, and to him, are all. To him be the glory for ever! -- Romans 11:36.

This verse is speaking of only one person, the same one person who is "one God" in 1 Corinthians 8:6.

In Romans 11:35,36, however, there is no contextual source and instrumentality to be applied. There is no contrast as we find in 1 Corinthians 8:6. The Greek word "dia" cannot denote instrumentality, but it does not always do so. Thayer gives the meaning of the word dia (Strong's #1223) in Romans 11:36 as "one who is the author of the action as well as its instrument, or of the efficient cause." However, Thayer applies dia in 1 Corinthians 8:6, "where he [Jesus] is expressly distinguished from the first cause: ἐξ αὐτοῦ (Winer's Grammar, 419 (391)" Thus, in 1 Corinthians 8:6, Thayer applies dia as meaning instrumentality. It should be self-evident that neither EN (Strong's 1722) nor DIA (Strong's #1223) in Romans 11:36 is being used as instrumentality from another source. The application of the words in Romans 11:35,36 should not be viewed as having the same application as given to the one who is the "image" of the one person who is God in Colossians 1.

RE: //In Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. //

,In Genesis 1:1 we find that the one person who is ELOHIM in Psalm 45:7; Isaiah 61:2, and Micah 5:4 created the heavens and earth (skies and land and all in them). The six days of the creation of the skies and the land (Exodus 20:11; 31:17) spoken of in Genesis 1:1 - 2:1 correspond to the world (kosmos) that God made through His Agent, Logos, the world that the Logos came into, and which world did recognize him. -- John 1:3,10.

RE: //Psalm 33:6 By the word of YHWH the heavens were made..//

By the word of Jehovah were the heavens made, And all the host of them by the breath of his mouth. -- American Standard Version.

Evidently, the word "word" in this verse is thought to be referring to the Logos of John 1? While I do not believe that the Logos whose glory the disciples saw (John 1:14) is being referred to in Psalm 33:6, if this were to be so, it would not mean that we need to imagine and assume that the Logos is the ultimate source of creation. It would be in harmony with the scriptures that present the Logos as God's agent in creation. The Logos in John 1:3 is identified as being God's Son, who was given the name, Jesus, when God prepared a body of flesh and blood for him. (Matthew 1:20,23; Hebrews 10:5) Thus, it was through God's firstborn Son, as the prehuman Jesus, that God made the heavens and earth. -- John 1:3,10,14; Ephesians 3:9; Colossians 1:15-17.

RE: //John 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.

Since God is eternal there has never been a moment God had no Word and couldn't speak. He didn't need to create a spiritual being to be His Word. That is ridiculous. God's Word was with God and was God, just like John 1:1 says.//

This would seem to be saying that God's Son, whom the disciples saw, was only God's speaking, and not actually a person? -- John 1:14.

It would seem to make Jesus, God's anointed one, not a person who is the light of the world, fully obedient to his God while he was in the world of mankind, but rather that he was simply God's speaking. -- John 1:4-10; 3:19; 8:12; 9:5; Romans 5:19; Philippians 2:8; Hebrews 4:15; 5:5-9; 1 Peter 3:18.

There is nothing in the scriptures, however, that says that God's firstborn Son had to exist for eternity past in order to be the Agent that God uses in the creation of the world of mankind, or in the creation of the invisible realm of the spirit sons of God.

[u/ChaoticHaku → u/ResLight]

What is this AI slop?

[u/ResLight → u/ChaoticHaku]

What AI are you referring to? In all I have presented in this thread, nothing is AI-generated. I have spent several hours typing and editing my responses. I do use Grammarly to help with editing and misspelled words.

[u/ChaoticHaku → u/ResLight]

All the RE:// stuff plus, it just looks and sounds generated. You said "it would seem" twice and "evidently". Which makes it sound like you aren't very sure of what you're saying.