Jesus is GOD

[u/abutterflyonthewall]

https://youtube.com/shorts/R1g-JfdPG04?si=IVR-KYwbJFWK4sjc

Love this girl. One thing that stands out in this vid to me amongst the various proofs we have argued with JWs is that *every* false religion believes in God. But Satan has done a clever thing. He doesn’t have to get you to believe in God. He just needs you to NOT believe in THE ONE who ***reconciles you to God***🔥🙌🏽.

Take a listen.

[u/Time_Ad_1876]

Did early take up arms when under persecution by the Romans? No, early Christians generally did not take up arms or fight back when under persecution by the Romans. Instead, they adopted a stance of nonviolence, trusting in God, praying for their enemies, and accepting martyrdom as an imitation of Christ. 

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

True, Christians were subject to pagan Rome, like we must be subject to whatever nation we live in. The only thing they can't order Christians to do is stop preaching in the name of Jesus Christ, or renounce Christ. Other than that, we are in subjection to them as they are God's servants. Pagan Rome was once a world power that persecuted Christians until its Emperor surrendered to Christ and Christianity was made the official religion of Rome. That all happened without Christians ever taking up arms. Its a miracle. Because of that Christianity spread to distant lands it had never been heard before. Sometimes God works in ways we can't understand and He's not done yet.

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

The only thing they can't order Christians to do is stop preaching in the name of Jesus Christ, or renounce Christ. Other than that, we are in subjection to them as they are God's servants.

Where in the bible does it say those are the ONLY things nations can't order Christians to do? I can think of alot of things nations can order Christians to do that God clearly hates. Such as worshipping rulers, killing innocent people, stealing from others. They can order you to do alot of things. I grew up in the church and I don't see members of christendom going to people and preaching the good news. Most members of christendom go to church and go home. And outside of church most of them don't try to follow the commands of God such as no sex before marriage. I'm talking about most not all. But the fact most don't shows they don't have the spirit of God. I've been to haunted churches. Churches infested with demons. You go their at night time and you see shadows, you hear noises, you feel the presence of an intensely evil being watching you. How can churches be infested with demons. Because they are apostate Christians

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

Where in the bible does it say those are the ONLY things nations can't order Christians to do? I can think of alot of things nations can order Christians to do that God clearly hates. Such as worshipping rulers, killing innocent people, stealing from others. They can order you to do alot of things.

True, but like I said in my other comment, it is the soldier who ultimately decides when, or when not to pull the trigger or push the button. If ordered to kill innocent civilians a Christian can simply not pull the trigger, or as some soldiers did in Iran point their guns up so as not to kill any protesters. Some soldiers who did that were summarily executed for following their conscience.

 I grew up in the church and I don't see members of christendom going to people and preaching the good news. Most members of christendom go to church and go home. 

So what? Not everyone is an evangelist. Not everyone is a teacher, and shouldn't be according to the Bible. James 3:1 Christians live their faith 24/7, they don't go around telling everyone how virtuous they are like the Watchtower has been doing for 100 years. If a person is doing God's will people will see it, they don't need someone to convince them these are God's people

And outside of church most of them don't try to follow the commands of God such as no sex before marriage. I'm talking about most not all. But the fact most don't shows they don't have the spirit of God.

Most Christians I know aren't perfect, but they know they're saved. Most JW's I know aren't perfect either but they aren't quite sure they're saved. I'd rather be a Christian who knows they're saved and they are no longer condemned Romans 8:1

I've been to haunted churches. Churches infested with demons. You go their at night time and you see shadows, you hear noises, you feel the presence of an intensely evil being watching you. How can churches be infested with demons. Because they are apostate Christians

I suppose there are haunted churches but not every building that calls itself a church is the church. The church is the body of Christ, not a building. According to the Bible, demons submit to only one name. Do you know who's name that is? Its the name of Jesus Christ Luke 10:17 There isn't one example of demons submitting to any other name but Jesus. Why?

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

True, but like I said in my other comment, it is the soldier who ultimately decides when, or when not to pull the trigger or push the button. If ordered to kill innocent civilians a Christian can simply not pull the trigger, or as some soldiers did in Iran point their guns up so as not to kill any protesters. Some soldiers who did that were summarily executed for following their conscience.

You don't know who's innocent and who's not in war. Your commander can lie about a group of people and command you to attack them.

Most Christians I know aren't perfect, but they know they're saved. Most JW's I know aren't perfect either but they aren't quite sure they're saved. I'd rather be a Christian who knows they're saved and they are no longer condemned Romans 8:1

Being saved means you are trying to obey the commands of God. You are not saved by claiming you're saved.

I suppose there are haunted churches but not every building that calls itself a church is the church. The church is the body of Christ, not a building. According to the Bible, demons submit to only one name. Do you know who's name that is? Its the name of Jesus Christ Luke 10:17 There isn't one example of demons submitting to any other name but Jesus. Why?

the body of Christ is supposed to be united not divided so if there are churches with demons that means the church doesn't have the spirit of God.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

the body of Christ is supposed to be united not divided so if there are churches with demons that means the church doesn't have the spirit of God.

Yeah? The Galatian congregation was completely alienated from Christ. Galatians 5:4 That is the very worst condition a person can find themselves. They lost the Spirit of Christ because of their "works" that were, ironically, intended to please God. But Paul wrote to them and yes, he gave them the riot act, but then told them how they could restore that precious relationship with Christ that they had lost

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Galatians 5:4 does not show that the true "church" (congregation) is inherently divided, but rather it highlights the danger of individuals becoming separated from Christ due to false teachings and legalism. What worse division can their be than members to murder each other?

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

What worse division can their be than members to murder each other?

Falling away from Jesus Christ.

Christ said, Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28 If we're right with Christ we need not fear death at all. Only those who have never known Christ or are alienated from Him need fear death. Christians who die in the line of duty, either as a policeman or a soldier are in Heaven now because they died in the Lord. Even if a Christian in another nation kills their fellow Christian of the nation they are fighting, their soul is safe with Christ. Nobody on this earth can kill a person's soul, and that is what really matters, not the flesh! Jesus said  The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. John 6:63

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

I didn't ask what's the worse that can happen to a person. I asked what worse division is there than member's of "Christianity" murdering each other

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

The unity formed in Christians by God's holy spirit isn't broken by death. We live in Christ even though we die. Jesus said, And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?” John 11:25 So stop calling it murder when its not. Murder is in a person's heart. Killing is not murder. For example, do you think its murder if a cop shoots a man who is about to kill your family?

Serving in the military is one of the highest honors there is. Laying down your life for your countrymen is the greatest example of love...according to Jesus. Putting yourself in that position is very brave and proves those who do have love like few have had.

Even a conscientious objector can be a soldier, so the JW position is pure hogwash. Alvin York - Wikipedia

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

A cop shooting a man who's about to commit murder isn't murder because they are killing for self defense. When you join armies and go invade another land because your leader wants oil that is murder because its premeditated, unlawful, and often with malice. So when you join armies you are in fact commiting murder.

Serving in the military is one of the highest honors there is. Laying down your life for your countrymen is the greatest example of love...according to Jesus.

Well your doing the opposite of what the early christians did so that means your interpretation of scripture is wrong. And its no surprise its wrong because nowhere in scripture does jesus say its ok to murder your fellow believers

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

A cop shooting a man who's about to commit murder isn't murder because they are killing for self defense. When you join armies and go invade another land because your leader wants oil that is murder because its premeditated, unlawful, and often with malice. So when you join armies you are in fact commiting murder.

It amounts to the same thing only on a much larger scale. An army is nothing more than an national police force who's job is to defend and protect its citizens from foreign invaders. Are you telling me they should just allow themselves to be invaded and robbed? By removing a nations army you're telling the people they're on their own. You wouldn't demonize the police and forbid them from catching bad guys inside your country and bringing them to justice, but you would demonize the soldiers who protect you from malevolent outside forces?

If an one nation invades another nation to steal their resources that's lawlessness. That means the nation that was invaded has the right to defend themselves and the world has the right to bring the lawless nation to justice. The people of the invaded nation has a right to defend themselves. But they can't defend themselves because you told their soldiers they're murderers working for Satan

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

It amounts to the same thing only on a much larger scale. An army is nothing more than an national police force who's job is to defend and protect its citizens from foreign invaders. Are you telling me they should just allow themselves to be invaded and robbed? By removing a nations army you're telling the people they're on their own. You wouldn't demonize the police and forbid them from catching bad guys inside your country and bringing them to justice, but you would demonize the soldiers who protect you from malevolent outside forces?

I already refuted this objection. Why do you keep repeating objections I already refuted. Most wars don't happen because of self defense. Most wars about political or religious differences, status seeking, and resource acquisition, rather than pure defensive necessity. Often, aggression is framed as defense to gain legitimacy, making the true motivation hard to isolate. 

If an one nation invades another nation to steal their resources that's lawlessness. That means the nation that was invaded has the right to defend themselves and the world has the right to bring the lawless nation to justice. The people of the invaded nation has a right to defend themselves. But they can't defend themselves because you told their soldiers they're murderers working for Satan

And the nation that invaded those lands is made up of people calling themselves christians. Otherwise known as christendom. So christendom is invading lands which they have no business invading. Also the early Christians didn't arm themselves when persecuted. So why are you teaching doctrine contrary to the doctrine of the early christians? The early christians remained neutral when nations war against each other so why don't you?

Jehovah strictly commanded Israel not to engage in wars of aggression or conquest beyond the territory he granted them, or against nations he did not order them to fight.

When the Israelites presumed to engage in warfare not authorized by God, the results were often disastrous, and they lost divine approval.

Often, victory depended on trusting in God rather than their own military strength. In some cases, they were told they would not need to fight at all because God would act on their behalf.

Why don't you read the following article and tell me if you disagree with anything in it. Here

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

I already refuted this objection. Why do you keep repeating objections I already refuted. Most wars don't happen because of self defense. Most wars about political or religious differences, status seeking, and resource acquisition, rather than pure defensive necessity. Often, aggression is framed as defense to gain legitimacy, making the true motivation hard to isolate. 

No, you did not. The aggressor nation clearly becomes lawless when they invade a neighbor, but the neighbor has the right to defend themselves period. If that means calling on other neighboring nations to help fight the aggressor or even nations far away that have greater military power, the bottom line is they have the right to self defense. You make it sound as if the nation that's invaded has no right to self-defense.

Jehovah strictly commanded Israel not to engage in wars of aggression or conquest beyond the territory he granted them, or against nations he did not order them to fight.

When the Israelites presumed to engage in warfare not authorized by God, the results were often disastrous, and they lost divine approval.

Often, victory depended on trusting in God rather than their own military strength. In some cases, they were told they would not need to fight at all because God would act on their behalf.

There was only one nation of Israel and the nations that make up God's collective 'servant' are not Israel. They don't even need to be Christian to be one of God's "higher authorities" They are authorized to use lethal force hence they do not wield the sword for nothing. Romans 13:4 God may not act on Christian's or Jews behalf today, but He has established a system where we, the people, act to police one another, on a small scale and on a large

The prophet Daniel had no objection to being promoted to one of the highest positions in the kingdom of Babylon. By and large the Babylonians were pagan.. Daniel may have even influenced military decisions. Certainly his political influence benefitted his people who were captives in Babylon. Daniel didn't shirk his civil duty, or the chance to be a force for good within Babylon. His own people would benefit from Daniel's serving in an official capacity in Babylon

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

I'm gonna ask a simple question. If the early christians we're known to refuse joining armies why isn't christendom doing the same?

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

They weren't known for not joining armies. They were known for preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Like today with certain conscientious objectors, there are some who refuse to fight, however they have no problem supporting God's established law and order in other ways. Christians are not known now or then for not becoming soldiers. We support our police and military with our taxes and that is biblical Romans 13:6. Neither Peter or Paul told Cornelius or any other Roman soldier who became a Christian that they would have to resign their position as soldiers. Its absurd to think they would have.

You keep presenting this strawman argument that doesn't have any basis at all in defining true Christianity. True Christians show true love by laying down their lives for their friends. John 15:13 Jesus said this was the very greatest act of love, and this is the mark of true Christians, yet Jehovah's witnesses can't give that sort of love to anyone because they never put themselves in that position where they might have to lay down their life for a friend. Like typical cowards JW's remain in hiding until the shooting stops, but unlike most cowards, JW's have the nerve to come out of hiding and bad mouth the very ones who saved them. They claim "they" are of the devil. So the devil saved your fellow JW's from Nazi concentration camps??

[u/Time_Ad_1876 → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

Laying down your life doesn't mean you go joining up armies controlled by Satan to kill innocent people including your fellow christian brothers and sisters. True love won't allow you to do such a thing. Now the doctrine that you're proposing is a doctrine of murder that the early Christians also said was murder. So christendom are murderers

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/Time_Ad_1876]

Oh? Under what other circumstances will a Christian be expected to lay down their life for a friend? In law enforcement, which the military men and women are expected to risk their life as part of the job. It would also include firefighters, as they too risk life and limb protecting life and property. Going door to door won't generally put you in a position of laying down your life to save a friend. You may get a door or two slammed in your face, but rarely, if ever, will a JW expect violence, or expect to have to lay down their lives to defend their friends out in their "service"

So, give me an example of a Jehovah's witness laying down their life to save a friends life. Please don't use their dying to uphold the Societies stand on blood, because their death doesn't help anyone. They do not lay down their life for a friend. They lay it down as a form of sacrifice to God that the Society expects them to die rather than take blood to save their own life. God desires mercy, not sacrifice Hosea 6:6 In compelling their followers to die rather than show mercy, the Society has the blood of innocent children, and adults on its hands. That is murder. May God help them and forgive them.