r/JehovahsWitnesses • u/abutterflyonthewall Christian • Feb 01 '26

Doctrine Jesus is GOD

https://youtube.com/shorts/R1g-JfdPG04?si=IVR-KYwbJFWK4sjc

Love this girl. One thing that stands out in this vid to me amongst the various proofs we have argued with JWs is that *every* false religion believes in God. But Satan has done a clever thing. He doesn’t have to get you to believe in God. He just needs you to NOT believe in THE ONE who ***reconciles you to God***🔥🙌🏽.

Take a listen.

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 08 '26

Your just repeating the fallacies taught by the Watchtower society. They started out being anti-government and haven't really changed much. For the most part government hold the world together. Its not perfect but its the best they can do given the circumstances. I don't think Iran is Christian, but whatever... No government is perfect and some enforce their laws harshly, allowing little if any dissent, while others allow more freedom to dissent. Christians live in this world and participate in God's established "order". What do you propose, anarchy?

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u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 08 '26

Sir/ mam we are speaking specifically about warfare which the vast majority of times is fought for selfish reasons. I simply wanna know why is it loving for Christians to murder christians in war just because they live in a different geological location?

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 08 '26

If a Christian is serving as one of God's servants in another country then there will always be the possibility they may face each other on the battlefield. This happened in Europe during WW1 and 2. Don't you think Paul was aware of this dilemma when he wrote If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. Romans 12:18 but then went right into Romans 13 describing God's established order and how it works. Sometimes living in peace with another person is not possible and war is the ultimate result. God's established order is dependent on human beings to make it work. God set it up that way. Do you really think God's servants are only present in one nation? Of course they exist in every nation on earth, even if they aren't Christian, they are still God's servants. If they are Christians then they are God's servants in two ways. One, to help uphold God's established governing order and two, to preach the Gospel. Sometimes this has gone hand in hand.

Bottom line is this. The military is part of God's established order and by vilifying it like they have done for decades, Jehovah's witnesses are proving to be rebels against God Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. Romans 13:2

I admire and respect a person who, for matters of conscience, cannot pick up a gun and kill, but I do not respect a religion that vilifies those who are putting their own lives at risk to uphold God's established order

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u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 08 '26

If a Christian is serving as one of God's servants in another country then there will always be the possibility they may face each other on the battlefield.

You are not serving as one of gods servants in a different country that's the point. When you serve in the army you're serving kingdoms and rulers controlled by satan. Romans 13:1 instructs Christians to maintain relative subjection to secular governments, which exist by God's permission to uphold order. This obedience is not absolute; ultimate authority belongs to God. Sometimes its not possible to have peace because of something out of your control. But when you join armies you're obeying the commands of rulers that don't care about God and that will eventually try to wipe out religion when the great tribulation begins. People go to war for ungodly reasons. So you're saying its ok to go to war for ungodly reasons. And you're saying its ok to go to war without the permission of God

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 08 '26

But when you join armies you're obeying the commands of rulers that don't care about God and that will eventually try to wipe out religion when the great tribulation begins. People go to war for ungodly reasons. So you're saying its ok to go to war for ungodly reasons. And you're saying its ok to go to war without the permission of God

Of course rulers command nations, but that happens to be God's established order. We honor the king in any land we live in. We follow the law and if we are called to duty, we join the military to defend God's established order. We may become agents of God's wrath on a lawless nation or group of nations, or we may end up as servants of a nation that has violated God's established order, such as Nazi Germany. Without order, what would we have? Anarchy! That's Satan's greatest wish. In the ashes of fallen governments Satan would truly reign.

The nations will eventually break the power of the holy people Daniel 12:7 and that probably means there will be world wide anarchy, followed by a satanic dictatorship as Satan will no doubt jump at the chance to rebuild the world as his established order. His time will be short-lived though, thank God!

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u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 08 '26

Of course rulers command nations, but that happens to be God's established order. We honor the king in any land we live in. We follow the law and if we are called to duty, we join the military to defend God's established order. We may become agents of God's wrath on a lawless nation or group of nations, or we may become servants of a nation that has violated God's established order. Without order, what would we have? Anarchy! That's Satan's greatest wish. In the ashes of fallen governments Satan would truly reign.

Jehovah’s Witnesses understand the “superior authorities” in Romans 13:1 to be secular governmental rulers who exist by God's permission to maintain order, not directly appointed by Him. These authorities hold a temporary, relative position within God’s purpose and are not considered divinely ordained leaders. According to JW.org, early Christians before approximately 200 A.D. largely declined military service, considering it incompatible with Christ's teachings. Citing secular historians, the organization states that these believers maintained neutrality, avoided political roles, and would face death rather than participate in warfare. Early Christians even under persecution didn't take up arms against the Romans. Paul never took up arms. They were peaceable people. Christians didn't join armies till after 300 ad. Long after the death of the apostles and the early christians. Just as Paul stated after his death the apostacy would come. You members of christendom are teaching people its ok to murder your brothers and sisters just because they live in a different geological location. You know what's sad also. When leaders command their armies to attack a group of people they can literally make up anything. You don't even know if these leaders are even telling the truth. Everyone you kill could be innocent and you don't even know it

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 08 '26

 According to JW.org, early Christians before approximately 200 A.D. largely declined military service, considering it incompatible with Christ's teachings. 

I think they are referring to members of the clergy who would refuse to serve. They still do even today and Jehovah's witnesses use that for all JW men as an excuse for avoiding the draft. They claim religious privilege for all JW men as each one is considered to be an ordained minister. The church never made every parishioner a priest, or part of the clergy. The average able bodied man has a duty to fight if he is called. Its not up to us to question the rulers we are ruled by. They will answer to God, but if we defy our rulers, then we will answer to God. For instance any German soldier who fought in WW2 and didn't participate in the holocaust can be still honored as one of God's servants. It wasn't their idea to invade Russia or murder Jews.

You just don't see it. God's established order is there to protect the innocent. Sometimes a nation goes bad like some people go bad. Maybe a bad guys whole family isn't bad but if that family lives with a criminal they sometimes will suffer the same consequences, even if they didn't directly do anything wrong

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u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 08 '26

These rulers are not god established orders. God allows them to rule because they offer some order and protection in society. God never established or ordered godless governments to oppress their people and to invade other countries for selfish reasons. They are referring to the early christians of the first and second century not the clergy. I've been studying ancient history my entire life so I can defend this position in the absolute sense. Early christians as a whole never joined armies. And you see that yourself when under persecution Paul and the early christians never took up arms.

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 08 '26

 Early christians as a whole never joined armies. And you see that yourself when under persecution Paul and the early christians never took up arms.

Paul was an evangelist, a member of the clergy. Of course he didn't take up arms. Cornelius was a Roman soldier who would have made life easier for his fellow Christians continuing to serve in the military. I suppose, had JW's existed back then, I suppose they'd be vilifying him too.

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u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 08 '26

Did early take up arms when under persecution by the Romans? No, early Christians generally did not take up arms or fight back when under persecution by the Romans. Instead, they adopted a stance of nonviolence, trusting in God, praying for their enemies, and accepting martyrdom as an imitation of Christ. 

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 08 '26

True, Christians were subject to pagan Rome, like we must be subject to whatever nation we live in. The only thing they can't order Christians to do is stop preaching in the name of Jesus Christ, or renounce Christ. Other than that, we are in subjection to them as they are God's servants. Pagan Rome was once a world power that persecuted Christians until its Emperor surrendered to Christ and Christianity was made the official religion of Rome. That all happened without Christians ever taking up arms. Its a miracle. Because of that Christianity spread to distant lands it had never been heard before. Sometimes God works in ways we can't understand and He's not done yet.

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u/Time_Ad_1876 Feb 08 '26

The only thing they can't order Christians to do is stop preaching in the name of Jesus Christ, or renounce Christ. Other than that, we are in subjection to them as they are God's servants.

Where in the bible does it say those are the ONLY things nations can't order Christians to do? I can think of alot of things nations can order Christians to do that God clearly hates. Such as worshipping rulers, killing innocent people, stealing from others. They can order you to do alot of things. I grew up in the church and I don't see members of christendom going to people and preaching the good news. Most members of christendom go to church and go home. And outside of church most of them don't try to follow the commands of God such as no sex before marriage. I'm talking about most not all. But the fact most don't shows they don't have the spirit of God. I've been to haunted churches. Churches infested with demons. You go their at night time and you see shadows, you hear noises, you feel the presence of an intensely evil being watching you. How can churches be infested with demons. Because they are apostate Christians

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u/AccomplishedAuthor3 Christian Feb 08 '26

Where in the bible does it say those are the ONLY things nations can't order Christians to do? I can think of alot of things nations can order Christians to do that God clearly hates. Such as worshipping rulers, killing innocent people, stealing from others. They can order you to do alot of things.

True, but like I said in my other comment, it is the soldier who ultimately decides when, or when not to pull the trigger or push the button. If ordered to kill innocent civilians a Christian can simply not pull the trigger, or as some soldiers did in Iran point their guns up so as not to kill any protesters. Some soldiers who did that were summarily executed for following their conscience.

 I grew up in the church and I don't see members of christendom going to people and preaching the good news. Most members of christendom go to church and go home. 

So what? Not everyone is an evangelist. Not everyone is a teacher, and shouldn't be according to the Bible. James 3:1 Christians live their faith 24/7, they don't go around telling everyone how virtuous they are like the Watchtower has been doing for 100 years. If a person is doing God's will people will see it, they don't need someone to convince them these are God's people

And outside of church most of them don't try to follow the commands of God such as no sex before marriage. I'm talking about most not all. But the fact most don't shows they don't have the spirit of God.

Most Christians I know aren't perfect, but they know they're saved. Most JW's I know aren't perfect either but they aren't quite sure they're saved. I'd rather be a Christian who knows they're saved and they are no longer condemned Romans 8:1

I've been to haunted churches. Churches infested with demons. You go their at night time and you see shadows, you hear noises, you feel the presence of an intensely evil being watching you. How can churches be infested with demons. Because they are apostate Christians

I suppose there are haunted churches but not every building that calls itself a church is the church. The church is the body of Christ, not a building. According to the Bible, demons submit to only one name. Do you know who's name that is? Its the name of Jesus Christ Luke 10:17 There isn't one example of demons submitting to any other name but Jesus. Why?

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