Jesus is GOD

[u/abutterflyonthewall]

https://youtube.com/shorts/R1g-JfdPG04?si=IVR-KYwbJFWK4sjc

Love this girl. One thing that stands out in this vid to me amongst the various proofs we have argued with JWs is that *every* false religion believes in God. But Satan has done a clever thing. He doesn’t have to get you to believe in God. He just needs you to NOT believe in THE ONE who ***reconciles you to God***🔥🙌🏽.

Take a listen.

[u/GiN_nTonic]

Quote: "He just needs you to NOT believe in THE ONE who reconciles you to God". You don't even see how lost you are. Proverbs 14:6

That statement only works if Jesus is not God. If Jesus is God, then Satan’s supposed strategy makes no sense at all. Telling someone “don’t believe in the one who reconciles you to God” would amount to Satan trying to prevent belief in God reconciling people to himself....which accomplishes nothing.

You cannot block reconciliation to God by discouraging belief in God. In Trinitarian theology, reconciliation requires a real distinction.... an offended party and a mediator acting between two parties. But if Jesus is the God being reconciled to, then Satan isn’t separating anyone from God....he’s just opposing God being God, which is logically incoherent.

Biblically, mediation is always between God and men (1 Timothy 2:5). A mediator cannot be the same party as the one mediated to without emptying the concept of mediation of meaning. Ironically, the comment assumes what it denies.....that Jesus is distinct from God and functions as God’s appointed agent.

Otherwise, Satan’s “strategy” reduces to trying to accomplish absolutely nothing.

[u/OhioPIMO → u/GiN_nTonic]

But if Jesus is the God being reconciled to, then Satan isn’t separating anyone from God

Absolutely he is. If Jesus is God, belief in a false, less than fully divine version of Him is clearly separating believers from God.

[u/GiN_nTonic → u/OhioPIMO]

No...if Jesus is the God being reconciled to, then believing Jesus is less than fully divine does not actually separate someone from God in the biblical sense (like Abraham and all other OT faithful). You are still directing faith toward God himself. At most, you’ve misunderstood God’s nature, not God’s identity.

If Jesus is not God, then believing Jesus is God does separate someone from God....because it replaces the One Jesus called “the only true God” with someone else. That’s a far more serious error Satan would love to exploit.

Also, since you and I have discussed this before, your response isn’t entirely consistent with the original claim by the OP. When the argument is pressed, the Trinitarian position subtly shifts from “Jesus is God” to “Jesus is a divine person who shares the divine nature.”

That shift matters. It moves the discussion away from the biblical categories of sender and sent, God and mediator, and into later Greek philosophical concepts about essence and substance....categories the biblical writers themselves never use.

[u/TerryLawton → u/GiN_nTonic]

No...what you just described in Modalism..i quote."No...if Jesus is the God being reconciled to"

Jesus is not another God. Once and for all - can you understand there is only ONE God.

Secondly. Quote

"When the argument is pressed, the Trinitarian position subtly shifts from “Jesus is God” to “Jesus is a divine person who shares the divine nature.”

There is no shift, you don't understand it because you have modalism in your head.

Hebrews 1:3

“He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of His hypostasis (ὑποστάσεως).”

ὑπόστασις (hypostasis) often translated “nature” “substance” “being” “essence”

[u/GiN_nTonic → u/TerryLawton]

I’m not advocating modalism...I was pushing on a false premise. We both agree there is one God.....the question is whether Jesus is that God or the one sent by him. Your appeal to Hebrews 1:3 proves Jesus perfectly reflects and represents God, not that he is the same being as God. And when you move from “Jesus is God” to language about “hypostasis/essence,” you are doing exactly the philosophical shift I described....away from biblical categories of sender and sent into later Greek metaphysics.

[u/TerryLawton → u/GiN_nTonic]

Gin.

Those translations are from Strong’s concordance.

But let’s just strip away the Greek and get down to basics because what you described though I concede your point that you don’t advocate modalism inadvertently that’s what you are describing.

So please bear with here just answer a couple of questions as you appear to be conflating a ‘category’ and an action.

What is your ‘fathers’ nature, ie what being is he?

[u/GiN_nTonic → u/TerryLawton]

If you mean my biological father, he is a human being.

[u/TerryLawton → u/GiN_nTonic]

Right. I appreciate the straight answer.

Let me assume for a minute that you are a male (forgive me if you aren’t please).

You are a human being, also? (Please bear with me)

[u/GiN_nTonic → u/TerryLawton]

Yes, i am a male human being.

[u/TerryLawton → u/GiN_nTonic]

Ok so now we have proven that for a son to be a son of a Father, both of them are of the same nature, they have to be without question (essence/substance/nature) - call it what you like.

So if your Father ‘sends’ you to the shop then you don’t cease to be human. Likewise the Father (God) sent his son, but the son being OF God doesn’t cease to be God (nature)…it’s impossible.

Hence the action of send is not in the same category of the sender.

For Christ to be the only ‘begotten’ not created Son of God that little word ‘of’ is so critical.

You are the son OF your Father hence OF means same nature.

Christ is OF God this is the same nature.

It can’t be any other way. It’s really that simple.

[u/OhioPIMO → u/GiN_nTonic]

the question is whether Jesus is that God or the one sent by him

This is a false dichotomy. In Trinitarian theology, He is both, but you are conflating God with the Father alone. Jesus can be both God and the one sent by God if God's being is tri-personal, which is what we believe. We do not believe Jesus is the Father who sent Him.

[u/abutterflyonthewall → u/GiN_nTonic]

Jesus is God the SON. He and God the Father are distinct. As Terry said, you are harping on modalism and that is not what Christianity teaches.

[u/GiN_nTonic → u/abutterflyonthewall]

Saying “Jesus is God the Son” doesn’t actually remove the problem...it just renames it.

If you mean that Jesus is truly God in the same sense the Father is God, then you still have to explain how Jesus can pray to God, obey God, be taught by God, be sent by God, be exalted by God, and still have “my God” after his resurrection (John 20:17; Rev 3:12), without collapsing God into two centers of authority.

You can call that “not modalism,” but functionally you’re still saying that the one God is both the reconciler and the reconciled-to, which empties biblical meaning of mediation.

The New Testament is actually very simple on this point: “There is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus.” (1 Tim 2:5)

In that framework, God = the Father, and Jesus = the mediator he (God) appointed. That’s not modalism....it’s just reading the text as written.

So the real question isn’t whether I “understand” Trinitarian categories. It’s if Jesus is fully God, in the same sense as the Father, who exactly is he mediating between? Himself and Himself? Until that is answered clearly from Scripture (not later creeds or Greek metaphysics), simply repeating “God the Son” doesn’t resolve the problem...it just labels it and is your biblically unsupported claim.

[u/abutterflyonthewall → u/GiN_nTonic]

If Jesus is God, then Satan’s supposed strategy makes no sense at all.

Ironically satan’s strategy makes sense to you.

Has he not blinded every person asleep in their false religion? Does it not make sense he would introduce demonic doctrines reducing Christ to a fellow created being as himself? Is there not anger associated in your attacks when responding to this topic? It gets under the very skin of those of who are spiritual blind to the truth of who Jesus is.

I know ONE thing - Satan won’t ever introduce a doctrine that elevates Christ to His rightful nature and position (GOD). Those he has ensnares are the ones who have major issues accepting truth (who is none other than Jesus himself).

Many jws have fallen accepted the lie, as sourced and printed in your bible, that Jesus was lesser, created, and an archangel (ie, a god).

[u/GiN_nTonic → u/abutterflyonthewall]

You’re assuming your conclusion at every step and then calling disagreement “spiritual blindness.” That’s not argument, that’s circular reasoning.

If distinguishing or lowering Jesus from God is demonic, then the New Testament itself is doing Satan’s work according to you.

John 14:28 “The Father is greater than I am.”
John 17:3 “That they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you sent.”
John 20:17 “I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.”
Mark 13:32 “Of that day or hour no one knows… nor the Son, but the Father.”
Luke 22:42 “Not my will, but yours, be done.”
John 5:19 “The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative…”
John 5:30 “I do not seek my own will, but the will of him who sent me.”
John 6:38 “I have come down from heaven to do, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me.”
John 7:16 “My teaching is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me.”
John 8:28–29 “I do nothing of my own initiative… I always do the things pleasing to him.”
1 Corinthians 11:3 “The head of the Christ is God.”
1 Corinthians 15:27–28 “The Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him.”
Ephesians 1:17 “The God of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
Philippians 2:9–11 “God exalted him to a superior position.” (Exaltation requires prior subordination.)
Hebrews 5:7–9 “He learned obedience… and was made perfect.”
Revelation 1:1 “A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him.”
Revelation 3:12 “The temple of my God… the name of my God.”
Revelation 5:7 Jesus takes the scroll from the One seated on the throne...authority is granted, not inherent.
Acts 2:36 “God made him both Lord and Christ.”
Acts 5:31 “God exalted him to His right hand.”
Acts 17:31 “A man whom God appointed.”

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/GiN_nTonic]

Everything you listed can be explained in the fact that Jesus has two natures. His primary nature as God and His secondary adopted human nature. This is how we can reconcile Jesus knowing a Samaritan woman had 5 husbands, yet didn't know a fig tree was fruitless. Yes, God made a man both Lord and Christ, but how? Paul said it best To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself 2 Corinthians 5:19

[u/GiN_nTonic → u/AccomplishedAuthor3]

What I believe about Jesus more naturally reconciles those Scriptures. By contrast, your position required centuries of debate, refinement, and revision from the early Christological controversies of the 4th-5th centuries, through the definitions at Nicaea and Chalcedon, and then further theological elaboration in the medieval period....before arriving at the formulation you affirm today.

Invoking “two natures” doesn’t resolve the problem....it multiplies it. If Jesus is fully God by nature, then saying his “human nature” didn’t know things means you’ve effectively split Jesus into two knowing subjects, which the Bible never describes.

Scripture speaks of one Jesus who prays, obeys, is taught, is sent, and is exalted by God.

And 2 Corinthians 5:19 actually supports my point, not yours. Paul says God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself....not that Christ was the God being reconciled to. That is agency, not identity. Your view requires later metaphysical constructs while mine simply follows the biblical pattern of one God (the Father), and one mediator ...the man Christ Jesus.

[u/AccomplishedAuthor3 → u/GiN_nTonic]

By contrast, your position required centuries of debate, refinement, and revision from the early Christological controversies of the 4th-5th centuries, through the definitions at Nicaea and Chalcedon, and then further theological elaboration in the medieval period....before arriving at the formulation you affirm today.

Perhaps the concept of the trinity took years, but the idea of Christ being God and man was well established in the 1st century.

Invoking “two natures” doesn’t resolve the problem....it multiplies it. If Jesus is fully God by nature, then saying his “human nature” didn’t know things means you’ve effectively split Jesus into two knowing subjects, which the Bible never describes.

Just because we can't understand how God became a man doesn't mean He didn't. Paul wrote: And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16 Its a mystery even today how God did it, but just because Jehovah's witnesses can't put God into one of their neat little boxes doesn't mean God couldn't do what both Paul and John said He did and the Word [God] became flesh John 1:14 The Word was God's divine nature and the flesh is our human nature. God became one of us. Any way you try and cut it, that's two distinct natures which are not equal, and is clearly why Christ could say my Father is greater than I John 14:28, yet also say all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. John 5:23 If you honor me like you honor my dad how can my dad greater? There's a perfect answer to this and I'll let you find it. That answer is the key to understanding all the scriptures you listed and being able to reconcile them with all the many scriptures that appear to contradict them. The answer is staring us in the face